closed Chelsea 3-0 West Ham

[Nero 1,838]

 

[different level 1,056]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Those missed chances aside, what do you expect him to do? He is not a winger but is being asked to do the winger things and when he doesn't it do well, people are surprised. Why? Even he pointed out pre-game that his position now is a lot different than what it was at Leipzig...

Thing is I refuse to put all those missed chances aside. You could have all the excuses in the world but the sad reality is his finishing has varied from unconvincing to abysmal. I'm still having nightmares about that situation against Leeds when he actually stopped the ball from going in their net.

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, different level said:

Thing is I refuse to put all those missed chances aside. You could have all the excuses in the world but the sad reality is his finishing has varied from unconvincing to abysmal.

Much as I hate to say it, his chance conversation rate at Leipzig wasn't the best. He was 2nd on big chances missed last season in the Bundesliga, behind Lewandowski. But the difference is that he was getting many chances per game at Leipzig and would usually convert at least 1. Now, he's getting 1, maybe more if others create enough opportunities for him, because he's being played as a winger. We're expecting him to be super clinical with every little chance he gets now, which based on his conversation rate previously, is not gonna always happen. 

[Superblue 6,370]

17 minutes ago, different level said:

I'm extremely disappointed with Werner. It's like the same old story with us and those big money strikers. They struggle and struggle, people keep saying "give him time, he'll come good in the end", but you just know that's not going to happen. When you think that in the last 15 years we've only had Drogba and Costa who managed to meet the expectations it's mental. It's no surprise that we've won the EPL titles only with those leading the line.

Drogba was bang average the first two seasons, and Costa shut off for one of his three years here.

The difference between Werner and the likes of Sheva, Morata and Torres is he doesn't shy away. When they were struggling they were hiding and not getting into the areas for opportunities. Werner doesn't let a miss or poor play deter him and he'll still keep going. The goals will come, I'm pretty sure of it.

[Superblue 6,370]

Rubbish performance but about time we played well below standard and still managed to get 3 points. 

Everyone losing their shit in the last week need to calm down, this last week has shown how tight everything is. Everton have gone from mid table to top 4 and Spurs have gone from top middle of last week to sixth. We just need to keep within the pack and pick up points during this period.

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Much as I hate to say it, his chance conversation rate at Leipzig wasn't the best. He was 2nd on big chances missed last season in the Bundesliga, behind Lewandowski. But the difference is that he was getting many chances per game at Leipzig and would usually convert at least 1. Now, he's getting 1, maybe more if others create enough opportunities for him, because he's being played as a winger. We're expecting him to be super clinical with every little chance he gets now, which based on his conversation rate previously, is not gonna always happen. 

tbf he has got plenty of chances here as well. strikers usually have streaks where they cant hit a barn door. today he had 2 he should have scored no matter how average the pass was. also his movement isnt as good as earlier in the season sonaturally he does not get more chances rn. My feeling is his confidence was shot when our NT lost to Spain baldy. he hasnot been the same since he returned. he needs a bit of rest as he also looks knackered. mentally more than physically that is. 2 matches from the bench. he will surely score in the fa cup 3rd round and will get goin again as long as he is fresh

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

tbf he has got plenty of chances here as well. strikers usually have streaks where they cant hit a barn door. today he had 2 he should have scored no matter how average the pass was. also his movement isnt as good as earlier in the season sonaturally he does not get more chances rn. My feeling is his confidence was shot when our NT lost to Spain baldy. he hasnot been the same since he returned. he needs a bit of rest as he also looks knackered. mentally more than physically that is. 2 matches from the bench. he will surely score in the fa cup 3rd round and will get goin again as long as he is fresh

But it's not a lot, is it? I don't have the exact numbers right now but am fairly certain that he's getting a lot less chances now than he did at Leipzig. Even he said so himself.

Now, am not making excuses for his misses but as mentioned, he's unlikely going to be super clinical with his few chances when you see his conversation rate in the Bundesliga. 

[Fulham Broadway 16,829]

Nice to beat the pikeys and didnt their Porn Merchant owner Sullivan cut a dejected figure sat their all on his own ? 

On a side note its fucking stressful watching on TV all the time !

 

[hiterto 35]

1 hour ago, different level said:

I'm extremely disappointed with Werner. It's like the same old story with us and those big money strikers. They struggle and struggle, people keep saying "give him time, he'll come good in the end", but you just know that's not going to happen. When you think that in the last 15 years we've only had Drogba and Costa who managed to meet the expectations it's mental. It's no surprise that we've won the EPL titles only with those leading the line.

I honestly think he will come good. Unlike the others Torres,Shivshenko etc he is getting into right positions and creating chances for himself and other. He will come good for sure.... 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

Quite a poor performance again I thought.

Without Pulisic and Mount we would have struggled. Werner although playing on the left still has to do much much better. £52m. Need much more. Cant say that the few chances he had tonight and in other games that were missed were due to his positioning, just poor finishing. 

For all the money spent this summer we still haven’t progressed hugely imo. Well not exaclty true, we have defensively but offensively, its not good, its been disappointing. Ok missing Ziyech is big but Havertz has been a dud so far really, Werner has been pretty bad last while, Pulisic has barely been fit to play every week. 

[Jase 43,479]

12 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Quite a poor performance again I thought.

You think?

12 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Without Pulisic and Mount we would have struggled. Werner although playing on the left still has to do much much better. £52m. Need much more. Cant say that the few chances he had tonight and in other games that were missed were due to his positioning, just poor finishing. 

I don't even know why I'm replying to this notion anymore because I feel like parrot at this point but those missed chances aside, what do people expect from Werner? He's not a winger but is being asked to play like one and when he doesn't do well, people are surprised. The more I see, the more I wonder why Lampard even bought him if he's not going to maximize his strengths at all. It feels like we only bought him - and the others - because the opportunity came up due to the pandemic.

14 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

For all the money spent this summer we still haven’t progressed hugely imo. Well not exaclty true, we have defensively but offensively, its not good, its been disappointing. Ok missing Ziyech is big but Havertz has been a dud so far really, Werner has been pretty bad last while, Pulisic has barely been fit to play every week. 

Nothing looks cohesive at the moment. Lampard is making things up as it goes along. It's a system with a square pegs in round hole. Said it earlier, a team's system is supposed to maximize the players' and overall team's strengths and hide the weaknesses. Right now, we're doing the opposite and some players look worse than they actually are in this current system/setup. 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

21 minutes ago, Jason said:

You think?

I don't even know why I'm replying to this notion anymore because I feel like parrot at this point but those missed chances aside, what do people expect from Werner? He's not a winger but is being asked to play like one and when he doesn't do well, people are surprised. The more I see, the more I wonder why Lampard even bought him if he's not going to maximize his strengths at all. It feels like we only bought him - and the others - because the opportunity came up due to the pandemic.

Nothing looks cohesive at the moment. Lampard is making things up as it goes along. It's a system with a square pegs in round hole. Said it earlier, a team's system is supposed to maximize the players' and overall team's strengths and hide the weaknesses. Right now, we're doing the opposite and some players look worse than they actually are in this current system/setup. 

Agree with everything bar Werner, he’s had plenty of chances even playing from the left. Its been poor finishing as opposed to his positioning some times. 

He had the chance v West Ham from Pulisic hits it straight at Fabianski which for me a player of his quality should be scoring, the one he hits the bar again okay maybe unlucky but again you’d expect him to score 9/10 times because of his quality and that shouldn’t even be debated. Hes also missed big chances a player of his quality should do much better with against v West Brom, Newcastle, Rennes, Liverpool and Leeds off the top of my head this season.

Unfortunately he has always had a big amount of big chances missed throughout his career but as he has progressed from the 2nd Bundesliga to Bundesliga to the PL and his time as an international player for Germany you’d expect that to improve because the higher the level you play the higher the stakes and the less likely you are to get big numbers of chances. 

I do agree as a CF he maybe will score more goals or get better chances but he’s still had huge chances playing off the left and missed them and this is becoming a recurring theme.

You would be lying if you said it was purely positioning as to why hes not playing well or scoring goals. I know he’s not a out and out winger but hes still playing poorly and missing chances a player of his calibre should be scoring. 

[Superblue 6,370]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Nothing looks cohesive at the moment. Lampard is making things up as it goes along. It's a system with a square pegs in round hole. Said it earlier, a team's system is supposed to maximize the players' and overall team's strengths and hide the weaknesses. Right now, we're doing the opposite and some players look worse than they actually are in this current system/setup. 

This week aside which has been really poor, I'd argue the few weeks prior to that the system was working well and we were playing some really good football and creating a lot of chances. The Leeds and Sheffield United games are good examples where we went behind early in both but it never felt like we were in trouble and we'd have more than enough about us to hit back.

I think when everyone is fit, the 4-3-3 works well both defensively and offensively, or do you think there's a better system to utilise?

I can understand the questioning behind keeping the same system without a couple of players who help make the system work in this last week but then Lampard took a lot of criticism on this forum last season for chopping and changing on a regular basis with the personnel and formation. The likes of Klopp and Guardiola don't deviate from what they know (the few times Guardiola has he usually gets caught out). 

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Agree with everything bar Werner, he’s had plenty of chances even playing from the left. Its been poor finishing as opposed to his positioning some times. 

He had the chance v West Ham from Pulisic hits it straight at Fabianski which for me a player of his quality should be scoring, the one he hits the bar again okay maybe unlucky but again you’d expect him to score 9/10 times because of his quality and that shouldn’t even be debated. Hes also missed big chances a player of his quality should do much better with against v West Brom, Newcastle, Rennes, Liverpool and Leeds off the top of my head this season.

Unfortunately he has always had a big amount of big chances missed throughout his career but as he has progressed from the 2nd Bundesliga to Bundesliga to the PL and his time as an international player for Germany you’d expect that to improve because the higher the level you play the higher the stakes and the less likely you are to get big numbers of chances. 

I do agree as a CF he maybe will score more goals or get better chances but he’s still had huge chances playing off the left and missed them and this is becoming a recurring theme.

You would be lying if you said it was purely positioning as to why hes not playing well or scoring goals. I know he’s not a out and out winger but hes still playing poorly and missing chances a player of his calibre should be scoring. 

The pass from Pulisic yesterday in the first half wasn't the best but otherwise, I don't really have much to say about Werner's misses.

But the main point here is not even about Werner's misses anymore. It is about how he is being used tactically. The fact that you only mentioned his misses reiterates my point even more and heck, we only ever talk about his misses and nothing else. It is clear as hell that Werner is NOT a winger but is being used like one. Whenever Werner has been used out wide, we practically lose an attacking outlet from the flanks because he is not going to dribble past players, he is not going to beat them consistently and create chances for us. His attacking numbers have all gone down this season - and I am not just talking about his goals or even those missed chances - and his defensive numbers have suddenly gone up from last season. Is that what we want? Again, it is clear as hell that his position, his role are completely different than at RB Leipzig. They played to his strengths and got the best out of him. Lampard mentioned this last week and Werner did too pre-West Ham but are we getting the best out of Werner? Are we playing him in the right role? Werner was successful in Germany because he was used correctly from a tactical POV, he was allowed to shine in a system that maximize his strengths and minimize his flaws and Leipzig's system was not even centered around him only. But we bought him and are using him in a completely a different role, different system that were not what made him successful in the Bundesliga and one of the most coveted strikers in football in the first place prior to joining us. Why? I am not saying we should change our system to just fit Werner here but he clearly does not fit this 4-3-3 and especially the role he has in this system. So, why did we spend 50 million on Werner if we are not going to use him properly and play to his strengths? Why did Lampard not just go buy an out-and-out winger instead if this is how he is going to use Werner?

I feel sorry for Werner at this point because despite all his effort, his confidence looks shot all of a sudden, nothing is going his way in front of goal - be it by his own design or the stupid woodwork - and is being ridiculed for his performances when he is not even being utilized properly.

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

This week aside which has been really poor, I'd argue the few weeks prior to that the system was working well and we were playing some really good football and creating a lot of chances. The Leeds and Sheffield United games are good examples where we went behind early in both but it never felt like we were in trouble and we'd have more than enough about us to hit back.

Without taking anything away from us from those wins, the Leeds game suited us because of how Bielsa plays while every team have beaten Sheffield United this season unless you happen to be Fulham and Brighton.

3 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I think when everyone is fit, the 4-3-3 works well both defensively and offensively, or do you think there's a better system to utilise?

I can understand the questioning behind keeping the same system without a couple of players who help make the system work in this last week but then Lampard took a lot of criticism on this forum last season for chopping and changing on a regular basis with the personnel and formation. The likes of Klopp and Guardiola don't deviate from what they know (the few times Guardiola has he usually gets caught out). 

I agree with you about the 4-3-3 and I also thought it works well for the team the moment Lampard switched to it at Krasnodar - also fair to note that he stumbled upon it considering he was chopping and changing it before then - but the more we play it, the more obvious that it does not fit Werner and likely even Havertz at all. Unless Werner scores regularly, he is lost out wide while Havertz has not had a really strong game, dominant game (that Barnsley game is not counted and we weren't even playing 4-3-3 in that one, IIRC). I do not think Roman agreed to spend more than 100 million on those two, only to see Lampard struggle to fit them into a cohesive system with the rest (and before anyone jumps in, am not talking about Werner's missed chances!).

Lampard went overboard with the chopping and changing of system and personnel last season and while the consistent selection this season has been good, that does not mean he should stick with it for the sake of it if he doesn't have the personnel for it, like at Everton or even Wolves last week. We had no wingers against Everton, for example, but Lampard decided to persist with 4-3-3 anyway and look what happened. 

Klopp rarely changes his system but his system has everyone in that Liverpool side firing and there's no real reason to change. Can the same be said about us? As for Guardiola, his main issue is that he overthinks things and changes the system for no good reason, even when he has all the players available to play his main one.

[Puliiszola 519]

Its a team game. And players need to play accordingly and as a team. I had read an interview when we bought werner and he himself had said that he had liked FL's vision and did not want to be hen-pecked in just the CF role.

We are without Ziyech, CHO just came back from injury, so what were/are our options out wide? Tammy? Giroud? Out of all available options, Werner is the best available option. Also, he is not playing as a traditional winger, definitely not staying out wide and simply supplying the width. If he was being asked to do THAT, it would have been wrong tactically. He is playing quite centrally and infact the same channels he used to love to play in Leipzig (between the FB and CB). Werner has been poor by his own standards and he himself admitted that. Stop making excuses and pinning them on FL when we literally dont have a better option. 

Werner's finishing is not on FL. He will take his own time to settle but there are positives but also negatives. Stop trying to hide his negatives and pin it on the manager. 

[Puliiszola 519]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

Lampard went overboard with the chopping and changing of system and personnel last season and while the consistent selection this season has been good, that does not mean he should stick with it for the sake of it if he doesn't have the personnel for it, like at Everton or even Wolves last week. We had no wingers against Everton, for example, but Lampard decided to persist with 4-3-3 anyway and look what happened. 

FL persists with 4-3-3 because thats the formation which gets the best out of our current available midfielders and defence. Kova and Mount are not pivot players and will always struggle in a 2. Kante as a 6 and as a wall ahead of our defence makes us stronger and better defensively. 

In attack, irrespective of the formation, we would have struggled with our injuries. So you dont just forsake something which has worked so well for 17 consecutive games. We would have struggled in the everton game regardless. We have been struggling there for years and years. And if FL had changed the formation and lost, then people would have wanted his head for chopping and changing something that was working so well. 

[Jase 43,479]

13 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Also, he is not playing as a traditional winger, definitely not staying out wide and simply supplying the width. If he was being asked to do THAT, it would have been wrong tactically. He is playing quite centrally and infact the same channels he used to love to play in Leipzig (between the FB and CB).

Really? Below are some examples of his recent heatmaps...

Werner is still making some runs into central areas, like Pulisic from wide areas, but do those look like someone who is "playing quite centrally and infact the same channels"? Also have more where those came from.

18 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Werner has been poor by his own standards and he himself admitted that.

But at the same time, Werner also mentioned his role here is much different than what it was at RB Leipzig and even Lampard himself said it last week. 

18 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Werner's finishing is not on FL.

Do people just not bothered to read posts anymore? Who the hell is blaming Lampard for Werner's poor finishing? Make no mistake, Werner's poor finishing is on him but people really need to differentiate the difference between the issue of Werner missing chances and the issue of how Werner is being used in the team right now. The latter is no excuse for the former but it is certainly an issue.