Kai Havertz

[MoroccanBlue 5,291]

11 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Another injury... Perfect!

It's just dead leg. Those takes 2 weeks to heal with proper care. 

[Fulham Broadway 16,789]

Nicely unselfish to Mount for the goal - Odoi would have shot and missed 😅

[Strike 7,212]

16 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Nicely unselfish to Mount for the goal - Odoi would have shot and missed 😅

Harsh. At 21, he is starting on merit over Pulisic Werner and Ziyech. He is going to be the one from the attacking crop that becomes a world beater.

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

His heat map is crazy. Absolutely on every part of the pitch. You can see it on Chelsea Instagram profile. Imagine him between Mane and Salah 😯

[Fulham Broadway 16,789]

2 hours ago, Strike said:

Harsh. At 21, he is starting on merit over Pulisic Werner and Ziyech. He is going to be the one from the attacking crop that becomes a world beater.

Hopefully (Odoi we're talking about yeah ?).

He had a purple patch, but sometimes seems to morph into another Sturridge ie thinks hes better than he actually is. If anyone can get the best out of him it'll be TT

[MoroccanBlue 5,291]

Appears to be fit. Tuchel didn't name him as the 5 players that didn't make the trip to Russia.

Chilwell, Kovacic, Kante, Chalobah and Jorginho out. 

[Jase 43,479]

I have a question here - what exactly does Havertz specialize in?

Yes, he is more refined than Werner or Lukaku. Yes, he helps the team to keep the flow going when leading the line. But what are the things is he exactly good at? Is he good at creating chances? Is he good at scoring? What things exactly?

I don't think I'm crazy to expect that he can/should be doing more(?), given we paid 70 million and the fact that he's called a generational talent. They are different players but we bought Hazard for half of that price and some probably called him a generational talent and he always brought the numbers as well as the x-factor. But Havertz? 

I mean, if we're judging Werner/Lukaku on their goal output, then shouldn't it be the same/similar with Havertz since he's leading the line? If not, what?

Was just looking up some stats and Havertz has produced only 6 goals and 4 assists (excluding PKs won) in 41 league games. On top of that, his league xA is only 2.3 (Werner's league xA is 6.3 for example). All this low output kinda pales in comparison to what he produced in the Bundesliga. 

[Magic Lamps 11,649]

8 minutes ago, Jase said:

I have a question here - what exactly does Havertz specialize in?

Yes, he is more refined than Werner or Lukaku. Yes, he helps the team to keep the flow going when leading the line. But what are the things is he exactly good at? Is he good at creating chances? Is he good at scoring? What things exactly?

I don't think I'm crazy to expect that he can/should be doing more(?), given we paid 70 million and the fact that he's called a generational talent. They are different players but we bought Hazard for half of that price and some probably called him a generational talent and he always brought the numbers as well as the x-factor. But Havertz? 

I mean, if we're judging Werner/Lukaku on their goal output, then shouldn't it be the same/similar with Havertz since he's leading the line? If not, what?

Was just looking up some stats and Havertz has produced only 6 goals and 4 assists (excluding PKs won) in 41 league games. On top of that, his league xA is only 2.3 (Werner's league xA is 6.3 for example). All this low output kinda pales in comparison to what he produced in the Bundesliga. 

I can only speak about what he was good at in Bundesliga. There he was a good finisher, excellent aerial threat, master of simple dribbling, quick decision maker. Basically a direct output oriented attacking Allrounder. In Bundesliga he could have become anything l. Flick thinks of him as long term striker partner for Adeyemi. In PL, best I can think of is someone in the firmino mould. 

he will never be as effective here as in a less physical league unless he puts On a good 10kgs of muscle. He just can’t keep hold of balls into space which is what he needs for his game. In fact he will remain a peripheral figure irrespective of his talent as long as he does not improve physically and also gets tougher mentally

[Tomo 21,733]

20 minutes ago, Jase said:

I have a question here - what exactly does Havertz specialize in?

Yes, he is more refined than Werner or Lukaku. Yes, he helps the team to keep the flow going when leading the line. But what are the things is he exactly good at? Is he good at creating chances? Is he good at scoring? What things exactly?

I don't think I'm crazy to expect that he can/should be doing more(?), given we paid 70 million and the fact that he's called a generational talent. They are different players but we bought Hazard for half of that price and some probably called him a generational talent and he always brought the numbers as well as the x-factor. But Havertz? 

I mean, if we're judging Werner/Lukaku on their goal output, then shouldn't it be the same/similar with Havertz since he's leading the line? If not, what?

Was just looking up some stats and Havertz has produced only 6 goals and 4 assists (excluding PKs won) in 41 league games. On top of that, his league xA is only 2.3 (Werner's league xA is 6.3 for example). All this low output kinda pales in comparison to what he produced in the Bundesliga. 

I think the thing with our forwards is they are contributing to us in many ways (Kai aiding a more fluid system, Werner's pace and movement causing issues even when he's struggling, Mount's pressing and combination play, Callum's creativity). It kind of hit me the other day that with all of those above I've said at various times (paraphrasing) "I don't care (about the fact they ain't yet scoring machines) because they give a lot to the team" but ofcourse it becomes an issue when it's all of them. So basically if we had a Salah/Lampard in this side we probably wouldn't be batting an eyelid about the statistics side (Duff and Robben weren't exactly elite goalscorer for us but we raved over them regardless, in this team they would probably be scrutinised more as they won't have Lampard picking up the slack for them).

It sounds simple and obvious but we need one to evolve into a reliable scorer, hopefully the last few games is a sign Mount is turning into said player.

[Jase 43,479]

57 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

I can only speak about what he was good at in Bundesliga. There he was a good finisher, excellent aerial threat, master of simple dribbling, quick decision maker. Basically a direct output oriented attacking Allrounder. In Bundesliga he could have become anything l. Flick thinks of him as long term striker partner for Adeyemi. In PL, best I can think of is someone in the firmino mould. 

So, we paid 70 million for someone to just be another Firmino (someone who cost Liverpool only 30 million)?

57 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

he will never be as effective here as in a less physical league unless he puts On a good 10kgs of muscle. He just can’t keep hold of balls into space which is what he needs for his game. In fact he will remain a peripheral figure irrespective of his talent as long as he does not improve physically and also gets tougher mentally

For me, I think he's doing fine physically. He's been aggressive and shown more willingness to get into physical duels than say Lukaku, who is bigger and looks much more physical than him. It's just that Havertz doesn't quite do enough on the ball. Like when you see him on the ball, you don't really see him do anything WOW (like Hazard did) or say, play defence splitting passes etc. 

[Jase 43,479]

37 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I think the thing with our forwards is they are contributing to us in many ways (Kai aiding a more fluid system, Werner's pace and movement causing issues even when he's struggling, Mount's pressing and combination play, Callum's creativity). It kind of hit me the other day that with all of those above I've said at various times (paraphrasing) "I don't care (about the fact they ain't yet scoring machines) because they give a lot to the team" but ofcourse it becomes an issue when it's all of them. So basically if we had a Salah/Lampard in this side we probably wouldn't be batting an eyelid about the statistics side (Duff and Robben weren't exactly elite goalscorer for us but we raved over them regardless, in this team they would probably be scrutinised more as they won't have Lampard picking up the slack for them).

It sounds simple and obvious but we need one to evolve into a reliable scorer, hopefully the last few games is a sign Mount is turning into said player.

The thing is, those players didn't cost as much as Havertz did (some of them cost nothing) and they haven't been touted as the next best thing. So while Havertz contributes to the system in general, I also don't think it's crazy to expect more out of him and question what exactly is he good at. And I'm not just asking this about him because we don't have a reliable goalscorer.

[Pizy 18,360]

His use of his large frame is so inconsistent. That’s what’s frustrating. There are some games where he shields the ball well and others like today where CB’s just repeatedly toss him aside.

Similarly to his fellow German he plays like too much of a passive nice guy. He doesn’t have that switch to flip where he can become an aggressive bully.

I think he is also sort of a victim of the personnel around him. Much as I love Mason, I think Kai would look much better and his numbers would significantly improve if he played in front of a classic #10 who does the creative bits for him. He’s at his most dangerous when he’s getting on the end of things and finishing instinctively. When he has to receive the ball and create for himself his feet aren’t really quick enough and his long range shooting is nonexistent. 
 

If we played with a #10 that had amazing through balls and creativity like De Bruyne or Bruno Fernandes I think Kai’s numbers would be amazing. As much work as Mase does for the team he doesn’t really have a link with any of our other attackers.

[Tomo 21,733]

9 minutes ago, Jase said:

The thing is, those players didn't cost as much as Havertz did (some of them cost nothing) and they haven't been touted as the next best thing. So while Havertz contributes to the system in general, I also don't think it's crazy to expect more out of him and question what exactly is he good at. And I'm not just asking this about him because we don't have a reliable goalscorer.

While I do get the cost argument I genuinely couldn't give a shit about his stat padding aspect if the team becomes successful with him at F9 (which I believe it can).

Watching him for Bayer I instantly said he'll be a perfect Firmino succesor for Liverpool, if he becomes that for us I won't be complaining.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

While I do get the cost argument I genuinely couldn't give a shit about his stat padding aspect if the team becomes successful with him at F9 (which I believe it can).

Watching him for Bayer I instantly said he'll be a perfect Firmino succesor for Liverpool, if he becomes that for us I won't be complaining.

It's not just the cost argument. It's also the fact that his talent has been hyped up by people, the media in Germany. So again, pardon me if I'm expecting more out of him. 

Also, you said all of that while we still have one big elephant in the room yet to be addressed. 

[LAM09 6,733]

1 hour ago, Magic Lamps said:

I can only speak about what he was good at in Bundesliga. There he was a good finisher, excellent aerial threat, master of simple dribbling, quick decision maker. Basically a direct output oriented attacking Allrounder. In Bundesliga he could have become anything l. Flick thinks of him as long term striker partner for Adeyemi. In PL, best I can think of is someone in the firmino mould. 

It seems like the jump from the Bundesliga to the Premiership is one a number of attackers can't make or struggle to do so. Dzeko is the only one that has managed to bring his form over with him in recent years. 

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

Play 4231 with him as AM and build team around him. He played in this role just 5 games last season early on and it was very promising. 

Krasnodar, WBA, Palace, Southampton and Barnsley. 

In these 5 games we scored 20 goals with him having 4g 3a. 

After that he got Covid, Lampard changed formation and the rest is history. 

 

[Tomo 21,733]

1 hour ago, Jase said:

It's not just the cost argument. It's also the fact that his talent has been hyped up by people, the media in Germany. So again, pardon me if I'm expecting more out of him. 

Also, you said all of that while we still have one big elephant in the room yet to be addressed. 

Yes which is kind of the point I was making. As much as one attacker has a "goal" breakthrough all of a sudden we can enjoy what the others bring more than stressing about their goal stats. For context Kai's goal record for us is better than Robben's? (13 in 66 vs 19 in 106) Did we ever get worked up about the latters goal record? No, guess why?

I'd like to think the players I named are too talented for atleast one not to have a breakthrough period goal wise sooner rather than later, like I said hopefully Mount's recent burst is such.

[Jase 43,479]

12 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Yes which is kind of the point I was making. As much as one attacker has a "goal" breakthrough all of a sudden we can enjoy what the others bring more than stressing about their goal stats. For context Kai's goal record for us is better than Robben's? (13 in 66 vs 19 in 106) Did we ever get worked up about the latters goal record? No, guess why?

I'd like to think the players I named are too talented for atleast one not to have a breakthrough period goal wise sooner rather than later, like I said hopefully Mount's recent burst is such.

Am questioning more on what Havertz is good at exactly. Surely, there's more than just keeping the flow going for someone that cost 70 million and called a generational talent? And for all the comparison with Firmino, even he has produced a decent amount of goals and assists each season.