6. Thiago Silva

[Pizy 17,860]

If you guys haven't yet, watch the highlights of his last match in the CL final on YouTube. He's just effortlessly classy and extremely calm. Like he's just casually strolling around barely breaking a sweat. And that's against the scariest side in Europe who have blown everyone else away.

That's precisely what we needed. Shit, depending on the CB partnership and the keeper situation it could mean Jorginho comes back in the fold as a hugely important player. Having a rock of a defender behind him so we aren't totally exposed to counter attacks could allow us to use J5.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

tbh this dude is example how funny people look when they constantly say stuff like ohh Koulibaly or xyz is soon 30 etc...

If we signed Thiago when he was 29, he would deliver at least 5 seasons at the top level. Same with Ramos. 

Ballack and Maka were also "old" when we signed them.

 

[Vesper 27,280]

Captain, leader, scapegoat: Silva arrives at Chelsea with a point to prove

https://theathletic.com/2021586/2020/08/28/thiago-silva-chelsea-move-contract/

Thiago Silva has always been a curious jumble of contradictions.

He is a hardman centre-back — a Big Sheriff, to use the endearing Brazilian term — who often plays football as if he is on the verge of tears. He has won 28 trophies but continues to be haunted by a nagging feeling of underachievement. He is, in the words of Brazil manager Tite, a “natural-born leader”, yet his critics will tell you that he goes missing when push comes to shove.

It has been especially hard to get a real grip on him in England. We have viewed him principally through two prisms: as a foundational stone of the Paris Saint-Germain project, with all its failures and flightiness, and as a mainstay of the Brazil side during one of the most miserable periods in its entire history.

Guilty by association? That might be pushing it, but it is probably fair to say that any evaluation based solely upon Champions League nights and World Cups does him no great favours.

Now, aged 35, Silva comes to England. This is not some lifetime ambition fulfilled — he has made it very clear that he wanted to stay in Paris — but it does present him with a series of opportunities: to help guide a young, exciting team; to keep himself in the Brazil conversation until World Cup 2022; to prove, after eight seasons in France, that he could have cut it in any of Europe’s top leagues.

And, of course, that PSG were wrong to let him go.

---

From a technical and physical perspective, Silva’s quality has never been in doubt. Since his early years at Juventude and Fluminense, where he earnt the nickname O Monstro, he has been the kind of dominant, assured defender around which managers love to build sides. At AC Milan, he shone alongside Alessandro Nesta and was named as the successor to Franco Baresi — by the legendary defender himself.

“It’s difficult to identify where he can still improve,” said Baresi. “He has already proven that he has everything.”

It is natural to wonder whether the Baresi prophecy would have been borne out had Silva remained in Italy. But this, in hindsight, was probably the peak of his career, at least in terms of his global reputation. The move to PSG in 2012 made him one of the best-paid players in the world, but it also made his legacy contingent on success in Europe. Silva is a PSG icon by any metric, having captained the side to seven of their nine Ligue 1 titles. But he is also, unavoidably, a symbol of their inability to win the Champions League.

A victim of it, too, in some ways. If you were to bullet point the 10 biggest issues with PSG’s efforts in Europe over the last eight years, Silva wouldn’t be among them. Yet a few individual mistakes do stick in the mind — that brainless handball against Chelsea in 2015, for instance — and there have been persistent whispers about his ability to keep a level head when the pressure is ramped up.

 

Silva’s handball against Chelsea (Photo: Paul Gilham/Getty Images)

Case in point: the era-defining 6-1 surrender to Barcelona in 2017. Unai Emery is not everyone’s idea of a good manager, but his assessment of Silva’s role in that defeat was quietly damning.

“I wanted the team to defend higher,” Emery told France Football. “Thiago Silva is a great player, but I wanted him to be higher and I couldn’t get him to accept that. I wanted him to get out of his comfort zone, to dare to defend higher so that our pressure on the opponent would be more effective. I worked with him to get him to accept this, but I was unsuccessful. And this characteristic of Thiago Silva’s game echoed throughout the team, which under pressure had a natural tendency to back down.”

That will ring a bell with anyone who watched him closely during the 2014 World Cup. Nearly all of Brazil’s players appeared to struggle with the responsibility of winning the thing on home soil, but Silva looked utterly overwhelmed. He welled up during every national anthem. When the round-of-16 game against Chile went to penalties, he refused to take the sixth kick and asked to go last, after goalkeeper Julio Cesar. Silva could not even bring himself to watch the shootout. When Brazil won it, he cried his eyes out.

 

Silva, second from left, cannot bear to watch Brazil’s penalty shootout against Chile in 2014 (Photo: Jean Catuffe/Getty Images)

Those histrionics chimed with a wider sense of fragility within the squad — later exposed by Germany — and drew criticism from former players and journalists. “The players have to stop crying and focus on playing football,” said 2002 World Cup winner Cafu. “The players are emotionally unstable,” wrote Estado de Minas columnist Antero Greco, presumably with Silva in mind. “They’re crybabies. They have too many tears and not enough smiles. It affects them technically and tactically.”

Silva had the good fortune to miss the 7-1 defeat by Germany. But even that came with an addition to his rap sheet: he was suspended after picking up an unnecessary yellow card against Colombia in the previous game. He was stripped of the captaincy in the wake of the World Cup (“I can’t pretend I’m happy. It’s a sad, painful moment, as if they took something away from me”) and worse was to come: he was made a scapegoat for Brazil’s 2015 Copa America exit after giving away a daft late penalty (another handball) against Paraguay. He did not play for his country again for 17 months.

Two points are worth making here. The first is that these were Brazil’s car-crash years, a mess of bad decisions and abject leadership from which no one truly emerged unscathed. Neymar, Marcelo, Fernandinho, Filipe Luis, Miranda, Marquinhos… these are players who deserved much better. Silva’s name can be added to that list, and it is telling that his performances picked up markedly when Tite — a coach who actually belongs in this century — took over from Dunga in 2016. Silva has arguably never been more impressive for the Selecao than he was at the Copa America last year.

 

(Photo: Juan Mabromata/AFP via Getty Images)

The second is that Silva’s entire career has been built on a quiet determination that can evade a fleeting glance. His emotions may lurk close to the surface, but he is certainly not weak. This, after all, is someone who fought his way back from tuberculosis before establishing himself at Fluminense between 2006 and 2009. The diagnosis came shortly after he joined Dinamo Moscow as a 20-year-old in 2005. He spent six months in a Russian hospital bed and put on 10kg; doctors said he would be lucky to play again.

That he came back at all is impressive; that he was widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the world just five years later is remarkable. It was a formative experience and then some; it shaped his personality, made him grow up. “After my illness, I felt stronger, more responsible,” he told Placar magazine in 2014. “Before that, I was just a kid who liked playing football.”

 

Silva celebrates for Fluminense (Photo: Juan Mabromata/AFP via Getty Images)

It made him a model professional and a role model. “It has been a pleasure to have a captain with his personality,” Thomas Tuchel said this weekend, and his absence will be felt by the PSG players, too. The example of Marquinhos, who has learnt at his side and is now ready to take on his mantle at the Parc des Princes, is instructive; he calls Silva “an idol” and will forever be indebted to him. Chelsea’s young centre-backs will surely be hoping to tap into his knowhow too.

For Brazil, he has settled into the role of elder statesman, setting the standards for the next generation to follow. “Thiago is a leader on and off the pitch,” says Gremio centre-back Pedro Geromel, who was part of Tite’s 2018 World Cup squad with Silva. “I can tell you that he’s a very intelligent person. He was always talking to me, giving me instructions in training, but he is also modest enough to listen to advice. He pushes himself to the limit and always wants to improve. He’s a true professional, really committed. He didn’t start a Champions League final at the age of 35 by chance.”

Silva has ambitions to go into coaching when he retires, but he does not see this move as the start of that transition. He dreams of ending his career after Qatar 2022 and, perhaps because he only started playing for Milan at 24, still feels that he has plenty of gas left in the tank. He is coming to Stamford Bridge to make a difference and set an example, not to sit on the bench and pick up a wage.

“My physique is not that of a 35-year-old athlete,” he told France Football in November. “I’m paying more and more attention to my body. By being professional and demanding in every area, I hope that I will be able to extend my career. I feel like I’m in my best years.”

If he is right, and Frank Lampard can find a way to harness his experience, he might just put some overdue shine on his legacy at the very last.

[Vesper 27,280]

3 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

tbh this dude is example how funny people look when they constantly say stuff like ohh Koulibaly or xyz is soon 30 etc...

If we signed Thiago when he was 29, he would deliver at least 5 seasons at the top level. Same with Ramos. 

Ballack and Maka were also "old" when we signed them.

 

3 points

1. you are using genetic freaks for examples (I can make a list but I will spare us all), the vast majority of players are shit by 32, 33yo in terms of top 10 teams on the planet play. Iwill grant that there are 4 positions who age better. Strikers, SOME CB's, Pirlo (another genetic freak btw) type deep-lying registas, and obviously GKers.

Trad DMF's, most all wingers, most other types of MFers, and almost all fullbacks are done far sooner

2. we did not have FFP to deal with in the noughties, so 'dead money' buys were ok

3. Silva was a free transfer, Koulibaly will still cost damn near £70m or so, I would wager, and he showed slippage last season

[communicate 2,703]

11 hours ago, petre.ispirescu said:

No disrespect to Azpilicueta he is a big influence at the club, but he is no captain material if you ask me, Thiago Silva should be given the armband the second he steps a foot at Cobham and he should definitely be the loudest on the pitch, genuine WC defender hopefully his presence will have a similar impact to Van Dijk's arrival at Liverpool. Granted they have better defenders, but still T. Silva's presence alone should be of massive importance.

Nah, silva is 36,we have to see how he can cope with epl especially if we defend the same way as last season. 

[Vesper 27,280]

12 hours ago, Jype said:

Really excited by this signing.

JT had one of the best seasons of his career at 35 and played every single minute of the PL season in 14/15 so let's hope Silva can still have a big impact too. 

At his age he might not be able to play two games a week anymore but he's still a big improvement and most importantly he's an in-game leader that team have been crying out for since JT left. Expecting big things from him, even if relying on him is not a long-term plan. 

With Silva in the squad for the next season or two the club can start planning for a longer term replacement but the CB area should not be an immediate problem anymore.

Really smart contract management by the club too. A one year deal with club option of a second year minimizes risks but if he's still as good as we're hoping him to be the option will surely be used. If not, he will just play a squad role this season and be released next year. At least he can't be worse than what we saw this year.

Silva would have been a PERFECT partner for Terry back in the day. Can you imagine having Silva coming in as a 23 yo old back in summer of  2007? (2007-08 was .Ricardo Carvalho's last decent year for us, and eve then he was injured)

[Vesper 27,280]

43 minutes ago, communicate said:

Nah, silva is 36,we have to see how he can cope with epl especially if we defend the same way as last season. 

he coped damn well with Bayern, etc this season, I don't think West Ham or Brighton, or Arse, or NUFC or Everton, etc etc are going to punk him, and I expect he will fare decently against Shitty and the Bindippers as well

I do not think anyone expects him to be a 35 to 39yo Maldini.(Maldini at 35yo came in 3rd behind Pavel Nedved and Thierry Henry in the 2003 Ballon d'Or on the 22nd of December 2003, and was a month away from turning 41yo , (and still a starter) when he retired in 2009, as a 31 year long one club man, 5 times European Cup/CL winner and 3 times world champion) Maldini was the UEFA European Defender of the Year at 38yo (was actually 39 when he was awarded it it), which is just madness.

[communicate 2,703]

4 minutes ago, Vesper said:

he coped damn well with Bayern, etc this season, I don't think West Ham or Brighton, or Arse, or NUFC or Everton, etc etc are going to punk him, and I expect he will fare decently against Shitty and the Bindippers as well

I do not think anyone expects him to be a 35 to 39yo Maldini.(Maldini at 35yo came in 3rd behind Pavel Nedved and Thierry Henry in the 2003 Ballon d'Or on the 22nd of December 2003, and was a month away from turning 41yo , (and still a starter) when he retired in 2009, as a 31 year long one club man, 5 times European Cup/CL winner and 3 times world champion) Maldini was the UEFA European Defender of the Year at 38yo (was actually 39 when he was awarded it it), which is just madness.

Psg played marquinhos, paredes and Herrera in front of him. 

If we are known to protect our d line, sure no problem. But we ask our defender to defend large space, sometimes both of our fb push up high and we have jorgi and kova as dm. 

 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

2 hours ago, Vesper said:

3 points

1. you are using genetic freaks for examples (I can make a list but I will spare us all), the vast majority of players are shit by 32, 33yo in terms of top 10 teams on the planet play. Iwill grant that there are 4 positions who age better. Strikers, SOME CB's, Pirlo (another genetic freak btw) type deep-lying registas, and obviously GKers.

Trad DMF's, most all wingers, most other types of MFers, and almost all fullbacks are done far sooner

2. we did not have FFP to deal with in the noughties, so 'dead money' buys were ok

3. Silva was a free transfer, Koulibaly will still cost damn near £70m or so, I would wager, and he showed slippage last season

Im just saying its pointless to point out age for every single player, nevermind state he is soon 30, should avoid etc.

Also Silva is 36, when he was 30 he wouldnt be free transfer.

Football is going in the way where players play for longer thanks to better training and nutrition. Nowdays its not uncommon to have a longer career than before. Modric isnt freak of nature, yet he is still class at 34. Players peak at 30, so if someone is still world class, why not? You dont have entire team of 30 yos, but few are no problem.

If we were a built team ala City, lacking one quality CB, not splashing 80m on Koulibaly just because of age would be the worst reasoning. He could go on another 4 years at top. Shown no slowing down.

Meanwhile if players have injuries or show some decline at 28 ala Kante or Hazard, thats another thing. Most players are fit however.

It also depends on position. Wingers, fullbacks are a risk. Midfielders, CBs and GKs arent 

Cesc was in big physical decline when we signed him, yet he still put a show. And he was in decline. There are many midfielders who cope just fine. 

Thiago from Bayern will likely play at top if he stays injury free for at least 3 years. If someone said he isnt worth buying because of the age, Id laugh.

[Vesper 27,280]

1 hour ago, communicate said:

Psg played marquinhos, paredes and Herrera in front of him. 

If we are known to protect our d line, sure no problem. But we ask our defender to defend large space, sometimes both of our fb push up high and we have jorgi and kova as dm. 

 

we still do not know who are going to be our DMF's, not that I expect Rice to come in this window

and Verratti was their normal CMF

assuming Havertz is a done deal before next weekend

I am down to only 4 wants

new GKer <<<<< HAS to happen this year

Rice (next year it looks like) <<< we need him atm far more at DMF than CB (as I think CB migration will take a couple years with him if we go that route)

Skriniar (he probably will be sold this year, but probably not happening for us, unless we get REALLY lucky on selling players) << the not happening means Upamecano (who I prefer over Skriniar anyway) next year (we have the X-Man coming in 2 or so years up the food chain so do not need BOTH Skriniar and Upemecano, even I am not THAT greedy, roflmaoooooooooooo

Camavinga  for Rice's double pivot partner (unless Ampadu explodes in the next 2 years, which would be sooooooooooo sweet) IF Rice is moved to CB, then we need another DMF as well, a real cruncher type, like Denis Zakaria (ideal) or maybe even Aurélien Tchouaméni (if he keeps progressing at Monaco) or perhaps Leander Dendoncker (who I have always rated going back to 2014/15 and REALLY was sold on when he overall bullied Manure for Anderlecht back in spring 2017 (fucking Rashford 107th minute extra time Old Trafford goal was the only reason Manure snuck through in the EL)

 

[Vesper 27,280]

25 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Im just saying its pointless to point out age for every single player, nevermind state he is soon 30, should avoid etc.

Also Silva is 36, when he was 30 he wouldnt be free transfer.

Football is going in the way where players play for longer thanks to better training and nutrition. Nowdays its not uncommon to have a longer career than before. Modric isnt freak of nature, yet he is still class at 34. Players peak at 30, so if someone is still world class, why not? You dont have entire team of 30 yos, but few are no problem.

If we were a built team ala City, lacking one quality CB, not splashing 80m on Koulibaly just because of age would be the worst reasoning. He could go on another 4 years at top. Shown no slowing down.

Meanwhile if players have injuries or show some decline at 28 ala Kante or Hazard, thats another thing. Most players are fit however.

It also depends on position. Wingers, fullbacks are a risk. Midfielders, CBs and GKs arent 

Cesc was in big physical decline when we signed him, yet he still put a show. And he was in decline. There are many midfielders who cope just fine. 

Thiago from Bayern will likely play at top if he stays injury free for at least 3 years. If someone said he isnt worth buying because of the age, Id laugh.

I never said Thiago Alcântara would be a bad buy now, his style/methods of game play and his position do not toss up warning signs.

I always judge players when it come to age on individual, very holistic bases

1. quality of play they maintain (Silva is a go)

2. cost (as a free, he is a go)

3 what is out future-forward prognosis for that particular position versus immediate needs (Silva is a perfect bridge player there)

 

as soon as we were linked I said do it, instantly (and I am sure shocked some people here when I did so, but I have more than laid out my rationale)

at the same time, Koulibaly fails my tests, as he is far too expensive for his age (the dead money rule), and is already showing signs of age-related deterioration of play (I watched him a LOT this past season) He can likely rebound for a couple years or so, 3 max, but not enough to justify £70m or so,.as after 2 more years, he is then in a season where he turns 32yo in January 2023. Unlike Silva, KK is far more reliant on his pace and physicality.

 

 age-related deterioration of play <<< of all my calls, this area I have been extremely accurate in for dozens and dozens of big name players, especially so for (and I was very contrarian in regards to most of the press) for Real Madrid and Barca key players, including Hazard (he may, may rebound, but those 11 years at Lille and us he was just POUNDED on due to his style of play and far too often being the main focal point)

[communicate 2,703]

40 minutes ago, Vesper said:

we still do not know whp is going to be our DMF's, not that I expect Rice to come in this window

and Verratti was their normal CMF

assuming Havertz is a done deal before next weekend

I am down to only 4 wants

new GKer <<<<< HAS to happen this year

Rice (next year it looks like) <<< we need him atm far more at DMF than CB (as I think CB migration will take a couple years with him if we go that route)

Skriniar (he probably will be sold this year, but probably not happening for us, unless we get REALLY lucky on selling players) << the not happening means Upamecano (who I prefer over Skriniar anyway) next year (we have the X-Man coming in 2 or so years up the food chain so do not need BOTH Skriniar and Upemecano, even I am not THAT greedy, roflmaoooooooooooo

Camavinga  for Rice's double pivot partner (unless Ampadu explodes in the next 2 years, which would be sooooooooooo sweet) IF Rice is moved to CB, then we need another DMF as well, a real cruncher type, like Denis Zakaria (ideal) or maybe even Aurélien Tchouaméni (if he keeps progressing at Monaco) or perhaps Leander Dendoncker (who I have always rated going back to 2014/15 and REALLY was sold on when he overall bullied Manure for Anderlecht back in spring 2017 (fucking Rashford 107th minute extra time Old Trafford goal was the only reason Manure snuck through in the EL)

 

I don't think we will sign a dm this season so nothing really change. I have tons of question about this signing because of his age but it is free and his contract is 1+1.  He can probably offer some "mentoring" for our defender which is a big plus.

So all in all, low risk but I dont expect him to transform our defense. 

. 

[Vesper 27,280]

[Superblue 6,331]

4 minutes ago, communicate said:

I don't think we will sign a dm this season so nothing really change. I have tons of question about this signing because of his age but it is free and his contract is 1+1.  He can probably offer some "mentoring" for our defender which is a big plus.

So all in all, low risk but I dont expect him to transform our defense. 

. 

I don't think anybody expects us to suddenly turn into 90's Milan.

However, realistically if the attacking players brought in help our goals scored column to go up by say about 10 goals, and our defence column to go down by say about 10 goals then I would expect such shifts to result in a pretty good improvement in our points total too. 

[Tomo 21,681]

10 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

tbh this dude is example how funny people look when they constantly say stuff like ohh Koulibaly or xyz is soon 30 etc...

If we signed Thiago when he was 29, he would deliver at least 5 seasons at the top level. Same with Ramos. 

Ballack and Maka were also "old" when we signed them.

 

To still be competing at 36 makes Thiago an exception not the norm, you point out Maka and Ballack but both were long finished by that age. Out of our entire old guard only Terry made it to mid 30s still at a level to play well for Chelsea week in week out.

Koulibaly could do down Thiago's/Terry's route but he could also go down Carvalho's (who declined so badly post 30 even Jason Scotland had the beating of him).

[killer1257 3,282]

To still be competing at 36 makes Thiago an exception not the norm, you point out Maka and Ballack but both were long finished by that age. Out of our entire old guard only Terry made it to mid 30s still at a level to play well for Chelsea week in week out.
Koulibaly could do down Thiago's/Terry's route but he could also go down Carvalho's (who declined so badly post 30 even Jason Scotland had the beating of him).

Both Carvalho and especially Ballack had big injuries, which shortened their career. JT rarely had any injuries when he was in his thirties.



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[Tomo 21,681]

17 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

 

 

Both Carvalho and especially Ballack had big injuries, which shortened their career. JT rarely had any injuries when he was in his thirties.



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Fair enough but Ivan didn't and he was done at the top level in his early 30's, Lampard despite maintaining good goalscoring stats declined as an all round player post double. You never know when a player is susceptible to drop post 30, if the worst happens with Thiago S he can be our Terry under Conte type dressing room personality and we can both say thanks and goodbye next May, sign Koulibaly for £90m only for him to do an Ivan/Alexis style drop would put us in an awful situation.

[Nero 1,794]