closed Chelsea 2-1 Man City

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

48 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I've watched the match again and i'm even less convinced it was some sort of masterclass tactics than i was at the time. Most of our chances came from City mistakes, the only exceptions being Mount's scuffed shot in the first half and the move which led to the penalty. 

Kante also made 0 tackles and 3 interceptions while many times miss passing in dangerous areas, watching this again without the raw emotion i'm even more convinced (if that's even possible) he's not for that position. If Lampard keeps persisting with this experiment it will ruin all the excellent work (in evolutionary terms) he's done up to this point, i'm sorry to keep repeating myself but it has to be Jorgi or Billy there.

We've dominanted many games only to drop points this season so i'll take a team self imploding for our benefit and cashing in, but i really don't believe last night's approach is sustainable in the long run in direct head to heads vs City, let alone over 38 games.

I agree.

It was solid performance. Defensively great offensively not so much. 

With fans is always like this, result is all that matters. I try to look at a bigger picture.

I remember when we played Arsenal this season at Emirates. It was all doom and gloom for 80 minutes, people complained all game about everything...

We scored in the end from set piece and counter attack out of nowhere and won the game and people were over the moon about our performance.

I was also very happy because of the result but even after the game I thought it was a bad performance.

 

[Tomo 21,733]

9 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Yes, but we played City. They are far superior team. Couldnt care less how, as long as we win these kind of games. We will however need to build on the consistency against weaker teams. 

Also tackles are last resort. Kante was just disciplined and kept midfield tight. City was in crazy form (8 goals in 2 games) and they didnt score  against us from open play which is totaly fine for where we stand right now. 

We may not be superior to City but the previous 4 times we've played them since the style change we've only been embarrassed once (admitedly spectacularly but still), the other 3 times we went toe to toe and we done very well, only conceding twice and even keeping clean sheets in 2 of them.

[communicate 2,703]

10 hours ago, ZAPHOD2319 said:

Is it just me, or does Pulisic look like he has put on a little more muscle since the beginning of the season?

It is just you. He still struggle with physical battle 

[communicate 2,703]

14 hours ago, USATim said:

Something else I noticed yesterday, guys. Pulisic did a hell of a job shutting down Walker ON DEFENSE. Walker did not try to take Pulisic to the outside one time - he knew he didn't have the pace. And this took away any crossing game City wanted. Something very sublime but important in a tight game. The little things, lads. The little things.

Walker is playing a defensive rb for city. They push their two cm so high so Walker need to be conservative while taking on player. 

[USATim 20]

3 hours ago, communicate said:

Walker is playing a defensive rb for city. They push their two cm so high so Walker need to be conservative while taking on player. 

Walker was intimidated by Pulisic's pace on defense. Watch closely during the time Christian and Willian switch. Walker then goes right at Willian. Didn't attempt it one time against Pulisic, although he had more opportunities. 

[communicate 2,703]

10 minutes ago, USATim said:

Walker was intimidated by Pulisic's pace on defense. Watch closely during the time Christian and Willian switch. Walker then goes right at Willian. Didn't attempt it one time against Pulisic, although he had more opportunities. 

Sure, since i have the game on video what minutes? 

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

I've watched the match again and i'm even less convinced it was some sort of masterclass tactics than i was at the time. Most of our chances came from City mistakes, the only exceptions being Mount's scuffed shot in the first half and the move which led to the penalty. 
Kante also made 0 tackles and 3 interceptions while many times miss passing in dangerous areas, watching this again without the raw emotion i'm even more convinced (if that's even possible) he's not for that position. If Lampard keeps persisting with this experiment it will ruin all the excellent work (in evolutionary terms) he's done up to this point, i'm sorry to keep repeating myself but it has to be Jorgi or Billy there.
We've dominanted many games only to drop points this season so i'll take a team self imploding for our benefit and cashing in, but i really don't believe last night's approach is sustainable in the long run in direct head to heads vs City, let alone over 38 games.

I agree in so far as most of our chances came from stupid mistakes by City but I think we should keep in mind how bad our midfield was in terms of the quality we have in the squad. When billy came on and spread that ball to pedro, that's what we miss when we play mount and Barkley.

In future head to heads though, we all expect the team to be different. Ziyech is gonna RIP that defence apart (if they dont spunk on koulibaly). Look at the panic Abraham caused by being direct with some pace. Werner, hello? Pulisic was making things happen.

So I think our lack of creating clear cut chances falls on the midfield, but mount is a different player. Hes a dog harrying and that's how he managed to get his scuffed chance by intercepting the keepers pass. The mistake for pulisic's goal was just a complete brain fart but our tactics seemed to be primarily to press then into mistakes. We indirectly caused many of the mistakes imo.

Defensively we were pretty good. Kante's stats will be different of course but that's because his role is different.

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[BlueLyon 9,359]

9 hours ago, Tomo said:

We may not be superior to City but the previous 4 times we've played them since the style change we've only been embarrassed once (admitedly spectacularly but still), the other 3 times we went toe to toe and we done very well, only conceding twice and even keeping clean sheets in 2 of them.

And are you arguing or agreeing with that?

I mean in big games, its important to win, not embarrass them.

There are other 16 teams in PL we can embarrass. Against Pool, City, United as long we win, its enough for now.

[Tomo 21,733]

1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

And are you arguing or agreeing with that?

I mean in big games, its important to win, not embarrass them.

There are other 16 teams in PL we can embarrass. Against Pool, City, United as long we win, its enough for now.

I just don't think these tactics will work against City consistently, it relies on mistakes they simply won't make every time they face us. The point is last year we beat City and kept clean sheets in 2/3 trying to play with the ball and on the front foot, the idea that we have to approach it defensively or we get thumped is already proven to be false.

I got this approach in 2012 and 2015 because with the squads we had at that point all that mattered was getting over the line but at this point we aren't near the two major trophies, it's about building a team that will eventually get there (and one that will hopefully stay there this time).

[USATim 20]

6 hours ago, communicate said:

Sure, since i have the game on video what minutes? 

Pulisic shutting down Walker - 8 min, 10:50, 19, 20:41, 21:20. Willian fouled Walker at the 34:20 mark after Walker took him on and beat him outside.

[Jase 43,479]

8 hours ago, Tomo said:

I just don't think these tactics will work against City consistently, it relies on mistakes they simply won't make every time they face us. The point is last year we beat City and kept clean sheets in 2/3 trying to play with the ball and on the front foot, the idea that we have to approach it defensively or we get thumped is already proven to be false.

I got this approach in 2012 and 2015 because with the squads we had at that point all that mattered was getting over the line but at this point we aren't near the two major trophies, it's about building a team that will eventually get there (and one that will hopefully stay there this time).

Tomo, are you not overreacting a little because Lampard did not go with the approach that you want against Manchester City in ONE game?  When you play against a Pep Guardiola side, there is basically no foolproof approach. There is always gonna be a risk regardless of whether you take them heads on or you play on the counter against them and like it or not, you are always gonna need some luck against his sides, because of his style and players at his disposal. The important thing is finding the right balance in the approach. Sure, the counter attacking approach on Thursday might not be the most eye catching but we still managed to find the right balance between being defensive and still being threatening going forward. Least we did not turn up passively like what Conte did at the Etihad in 2018! Furthermore, it is worth remembering that ever since we went up against Guardiola in 2008, the counter-attacking approach has more often than not worked for us against him. So it is not like the approach does not have a good track record and if anything, I wonder if Lampard had that 3-0 spanking by Bayern in his mind when he came up with the plan for Man City. Given our how open we were and how defensively porous we looked in that game, it is probably not a surprise that Lampard decided to take a slightly more pragmatic approach given Bayern and Man City are rather similar in the way they play and that we are not at the level to play them at their own game yet.

Also, I disagree that we played on the front foot in those 2 games you mentioned against Man City last season. The approaches were very similar and both the match stats of the 2-0 win and 0-0 draw in the cup final were very similar to this 2-1 win. Less than 40% possession in all 3 games but ironically, we had more shots and shots on target than City in the 2-1 than in the 2-0 win or the 0-0 final. Heck, we did not even have a single shot on target in the final and had to play Hazard as the false 9! In fact, if we look at the average positions of the starting XI in the 2-1 and 2-0 wins (don't have the 0-0 game), we looked much more offensive in the 2-1 win than the 2-0.

 vs 

The one thing I would agree with you is the use of Kante as the lone midfielder in front of the back 4. From a defensive point of view, the move made sense but from an attacking perspective, it did not but I guess that wasn't exactly the plan on Thursday. We could not pass out from the back and it resulted in Kepa, Rudiger etc having to kick it long. But I guess that is the problem we have with our midfielders, someone to play in front of the back 4 in a 4-3-3. Either we have Jorginho in there who is better with possession than Kante but worse defensively than Kante. We suffer one way or another regardless of the approach. We need to find a midfielder who can do both roles well. He does not have to excel in both aspects but great in one and at least good in the other will do. Otherwise, there is arguably too much of a trade off between the choices we have right now.

[Tomo 21,733]

26 minutes ago, Jason said:

Tomo, are you not overreacting a little because Lampard did not go with the approach that you want against Manchester City in ONE game?  When you play against a Pep Guardiola side, there is basically no foolproof approach. There is always gonna be a risk regardless of whether you take them heads on or you play on the counter against them and like it not, you are always gonna need some luck against his sides, because of his style and players at his disposal. The important thing is finding the right balance in the approach. Sure, the counter attacking approach on Thursday might not be the most eye catching but we still managed to find the right balance between being defensive and still being threatening going forward. Least we did not turn up passively like what Conte did at the Etihad in 2018! Furthermore, it is worth remembering that ever since we went up against Guardiola in 2008, the counter-attacking approach has more often than not worked for us against him. So it is not like the approach does not have a good track record and if anything, I wonder if Lampard had that 3-0 spanking by Bayern in his mind when he came up with the plan for Man City. Given our how open we were and how defensively porous we looked in that game, it is probably not a surprise that Lampard decide to take a slightly more pragmatic approach given Bayern and Man City are rather similar in the way they play and that we are not at the level to play them at their own game yet.

Also, I disagree that we played on the front foot in those 2 games you mentioned against Man City last season. The approaches were very similar and both the match stats of the 2-0 win and 0-0 draw in the cup final were very similar to this 2-1 win. Less than 40% possession in all 3 games but ironically, we had more shots and shots on target than City in the 2-1 than in the 2-0 win or the 0-0 final. Heck, we did not even have a single shot on target in the final and had to play Hazard as the false 9! In fact, if we look at the average positions of the starting XI in the 2-1 and 2-0 wins (don't have the 0-0 game), we looked much more offensive in the 2-1 win than the 2-0.

 vs 

The one thing I would agree with you is the use of Kante as the lone midfielder in front of the back 4. From a defensive point of view, the move made sense but from an attacking perspective, it did not but I guess that wasn't exactly the plan on Thursday. We could not pass out from the back and it resulted in Kepa, Rudiger etc having to kick it long. But I guess that is the problem we have with our midfielders, someone to play in front of the back 4 in a 4-3-3. Either we have Jorginho in there who is better with possession than Kante but worse defensively than Kante. We suffer one way or another regardless of the approach. We need to find a midfielder who can do both roles well. He does not have to excel in both aspects but great in one and at least good in the other will do. Otherwise, there is arguably too much of a trade off between the choices we have right now.

Fair enough, maybe my memories being selective but I'm sure we were playing out and playing through them a lot more than we were yesterday (in Wembley I'm sure there was a spell or two in the game when we had City penned back), I may go back and watch those games and get a higher perspective. Front foot was maybe the wrong word but I'm certain we tried playing more to our (new) style.

Regarding the trade off, early days but it looks like we've got that player (to do both) in our ranks.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

Fair enough, maybe my memories being selective but I'm sure we were playing out and playing through them a lot more than we were yesterday (in Wembley I'm sure there was a spell or two in the game when we had City penned back), I may go back and watch those games and get a higher perspective.

We probably passed better in those games last season because we had Jorginho, Kovacic and even Luiz in the XI. Lampard acknowledged on Thursday after the game that we could have done better on the ball but I guess a midfield of Kante, Barkley and Mount won't exactly be WOW in possession. 

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Regarding the trade off, early days but it looks like we've got that player (to do both) in our ranks.

Who are you referring to? 

[Superblue 6,370]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Fair enough, maybe my memories being selective but I'm sure we were playing out and playing through them a lot more than we were yesterday (in Wembley I'm sure there was a spell or two in the game when we had City penned back), I may go back and watch those games and get a higher perspective. Front foot was maybe the wrong word but I'm certain we tried playing more to our (new) style.

Regarding the trade off, early days but it looks like we've got that player (to do both) in our ranks.

I appreciate the argument, but I think the nature of the situation called for us to do what we needed to do to win.

Klopp and Pep have stayed very true to their philosophies but it's easy to forget that Liverpool were nowhere initially under Klopp and even just 2 years ago barely scraped in the top 4. Pep 3 years ago only just scraped City into the top 4 at the end of the season. Whilst I think there will be some time and patience afforded to Lampard more than previous managers, history suggests that if we fail to make top 4 this season he'll be under huge pressure as expectations have seemingly increased as the season has wore on.

Also, if we get into the Champions League for next season, it might provide Lampard with a bigger budget and a more attractive proposition for targets which will hopefully accelerate the team's development much quicker than trying to match up to City.

 

[Jase 43,479]

 

[King Kante 1,474]

8 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I appreciate the argument, but I think the nature of the situation called for us to do what we needed to do to win.

Klopp and Pep have stayed very true to their philosophies but it's easy to forget that Liverpool were nowhere initially under Klopp and even just 2 years ago barely scraped in the top 4. Pep 3 years ago only just scraped City into the top 4 at the end of the season. Whilst I think there will be some time and patience afforded to Lampard more than previous managers, history suggests that if we fail to make top 4 this season he'll be under huge pressure as expectations have seemingly increased as the season has wore on.

Also, if we get into the Champions League for next season, it might provide Lampard with a bigger budget and a more attractive proposition for targets which will hopefully accelerate the team's development much quicker than trying to match up to City.

 

I do not disagree with your arguement and I think a big thing that has been forgotten is that in a relatively short amount of time, the Dippers and to a lesser extent City (who were instead under performing) have come a long way. However, there are a few things they did that meant they improved rapidly: 

1) They replaced the clowns that they had in goal. This I think is the single biggest issue facing us. The Dippers and City had Karius/Mignolet/Bravo/Hart (so Kepa sort of level GK's) in goal and replaced them with Ederson/Alisson. The difference has been like night and day. However, our problem is some bright spark thought he was worth £72m on £190k pw on 7 years. Not too sure how we can afford anything other than a Foster/Fabianski level GK.

2) Both got their CB1 position sorted. City tbf already had Kompany but then got Laporte who sorted their backline out and would've kept them closer to City if he didn't get injured, Dippers got VVD, which doesn't need explaining. We face a problem in that there is no obvious CB (who is buyable) out there. I mean even Romagnoli (who is possibly the highest ranked than could be available) isn't that strong or fast and could look a little lost in the PL.

3) They got there FB's positions sorted. Here our biggest problem is LB in that we need someone who can play LB in a 4. RB, also requires James to pull a TAA. For this we have to get things right and not dick about. Dave and Alonso are great in certain situations but against teams that we have 60% possession against we are still lacking. 

4) Recruitment hit a period where a higher proportion of singings paid off over 3 summers and they filled the correct holes - Dippers: Salah, Alisson, VVD, Fabinho, Robinson, Ox. City: Ederson, Walker, Laporte, B.Silva, Sane, Zinchencko, Jesus, Gungdogan. For me, this will be hard for us to ascertain for another 18 months or so as we need to see how, Puli/Werner/Ziyech/Kova adapt/improve and how the young boys, particularly James/Mount/Tammy develop. Further, we have to hope that the potential other signings (LB/CB) are hits. 

[communicate 2,703]

10 hours ago, USATim said:

Pulisic shutting down Walker - 8 min, 10:50, 19, 20:41, 21:20. Willian fouled Walker at the 34:20 mark after Walker took him on and beat him outside.

Hmm I have just watched the video, that is strange way to analyze. It didn't show anything about willian or Pulisic. It showed how to play Full back. The clip with Pulisic was similar to Willian at min 33. Did Walker try to take on Willian? Of course not. 

At min 34 Walker was isolated one on one high against Willian, that is when you take on somebody. 

 

 

 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

12 hours ago, Tomo said:

I just don't think these tactics will work against City consistently, it relies on mistakes they simply won't make every time they face us. The point is last year we beat City and kept clean sheets in 2/3 trying to play with the ball and on the front foot, the idea that we have to approach it defensively or we get thumped is already proven to be false.

I got this approach in 2012 and 2015 because with the squads we had at that point all that mattered was getting over the line but at this point we aren't near the two major trophies, it's about building a team that will eventually get there (and one that will hopefully stay there this time).

We are not yet anywhere near the very top, which was evident in Bayern game. 

And this game or season isnt just building the team but also building the team and finishing in top 4. Every game we aim to win. If we went gung ho against city, we would probably be done by halftime. Also taking the chances when they make mistake is great because we were finally efficient. 

I dont worry about our game plan because usualy we create a ton of chances. We are only behind city in shots this season. Its just incredible how more creative we are compared to last season and before where we struggled. We arent clinical however and our defence has issues; once we fix that, we will compete with the best. Still City games, much like Barca in the past demand to be very careful with approach. Patient and wait for chance, unless you desperately need to score. IMO Lamps tactics were spot on.