Timo Werner

[different level 1,056]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Am just saying he's more similar to Pedro than say a Giroud or Abraham, which is the feeling am getting from people. People seem to expect him to do things like those 2.

And no, Werner played as a second striker/inside forward on left for Leipzig. He played alongside Yussuf Poulsen, who was/is like their target man. 

People expect him to replicate or at least get close to his Leipzig numbers which is the reason we brought him here. If he fails to do so he'll be mentioned in the same breath as other expensive flops like Torres and Morata regardless of all the natural position debate.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,058]

7 minutes ago, different level said:

People expect him to replicate or at least get close to his Leipzig numbers which is the reason we brought him here.

This. He is bought as one of the most prolific strikers in Europe. 

I don't really care about his position or the way he plays. We just expected from him to be in top5 European goalscorers. 

Happy about todays performance tho. 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, different level said:

People expect him to replicate or at least get close to his Leipzig numbers which is the reason we brought him here. If he fails to do so he'll be mentioned in the same breath as other expensive flops like Torres and Morata regardless of all the natural position debate.

Of course we would want him to replicate those numbers but at the same time, people are just lazy if they judge someone on numbers. Drogba, for example, was never the most prolific of strikers and yet, we still totally cherished what he did for us via other means.

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

This. He is bought as one of the most prolific strikers in Europe. 

I don't really care about his position or the way he plays. We just expected from him to be in top5 European goalscorers. 

Happy about todays performance tho. 

I expect you to say the same about Havertz too...

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

22 hours ago, Jason said:

I expect you to say the same about Havertz too...

Havertz was a 20/21 year old who played in maybe 3/4 different positions in his career when we bought him though and Werner is 24 coming 25 having played as a CF/left sided striker or winger for the majority of his. He is a much more established player with more football under his belt, I get the new league stuff and that but he simply wasn’t good enough regardless of his positions or whatever under Lampard. His finishing was meant to be a strength but he missed at least 5 or 6 big big chances under Lampard that even someone like Morata would probably have scored. I get people mentioned he missed a lot of big chances but that’s acceptable if your still scoring and he wasnt. Even his general play what we see now under Tuchel, we didnt see that under Frank for a time. The blame has to be shared between him and Frank, obviously we know the tactics wasn’t fantastic but individual players of high quality, like Werner is, you’d expect more regardless and its no surprise why people are still sort of concerned that for maybe bar 2 or 3 games in the last 15 he hasn’t looked anywhere near it. Until he scores a goal in the PL people will still be concerned and quite right because he was expected to be a catalyst in terms of adding goals to this side. Havertz you can give a bit more leniency to as hes younger and probably has yet to find his best position in his career as he’s played right wing, upfront, as a 10, as an 8 but again he has also disappointed me this season. Hopefully both improve next season but if they don’t then TT will probably find himself in a similar position to what Frank was because they were signed to be key figures and ultimately, they have to deliver. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Havertz was a 20/21 year old who played in maybe 3/4 different positions in his career when we bought him though and Werner is 24 coming 25 having played as a CF/left sided striker or winger for the majority of his. He is a much more established player with more football under his belt, I get the new league stuff and that but he simply wasn’t good enough regardless of his positions or whatever under Lampard. His finishing was meant to be a strength but he missed at least 5 or 6 big big chances under Lampard that even someone like Morata would probably have scored. Even his general play what we see now under Tuchel, we didnt see that under Frank for a time. The blame is shared between him and Frank obviously we know the tactics wasn’t fantastic but individual players of high quality, like Werner is, you’d expect more and its no surprise why people are still sort of concerned that for maybe bar 2 or 3 games in the last 15 he hasn’t looked anywhere near it. Until he scores a goal in the PL people will still be concerned and quite right. Havertz you can give a bit more leniency to as hes younger and probably has yet to find his best position in his career as he’s played right wing, upfront, as a 10, as an 8 but again he has also disappointed me this season.

Havertz may be younger but then, one could argue that he has higher potential than Werner and came on a bigger price tag. Moreover, he was also a goalscorer and goal creator in the Bundesliga.

Sorry, I just can't agree with you about the position thing. He started off his career as a winger but he then developed into a left inside forward/second striker and did his best work there. He became one of the most coveted players around not because he did well as a winger but as left inside forward/second striker and he also did not score 90+ goals as a winger either. It's a position on the left side but playing as a winger and as the left inside forward/second striker is totally two different roles. Is it any surprise that he has looked more like himself, more confident in recent games when put in his natural position - e.g. inside forward/second striker - and when we look to play more to his strengths? In that role, we can utilize his pace to get into space, which he likes to do, and then look to score and/or create chances for others (like for Mount at the weekend). In the winger role, it's a different thing altogether because he'll receive the ball onto feet much more often and he's not great at dribbling past players and beat them consistently like a normal winger would. Couple that with Lampard's hit-and-hope crossing, slow passing football, it's little wonder why we had a player who looked totally lost under him. It's about playing to a player's strengths. Imagine you're an attacking midfielder and you're great at what you do and the manager suddenly put you in the defensive midfield role, want you to be a destroyer when you're not good at it and I criticize you for it. Wouldn't that be stupid of me to do that?

In fact, it's not only Werner who looked lost under Lampard. So many looked lost under his non-existent coaching. Lampard had all these attacking talents but because he didn't know what to do, we have wasted like half a season going nowhere with them and as a team. 

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

20 hours ago, Jason said:

Havertz may be younger but then, one could argue that he has higher potential than Werner and came on a bigger price tag. Moreover, he was also a goalscorer and goal creator in the Bundesliga.

Sorry, I just can't agree with you about the position thing. He started off his career as a winger but he then developed into a left inside forward/second striker and did his best work there. He became one of the most coveted players around not because he did well as a winger but as left inside forward/second striker and he also did not score 90+ goals as a winger either. It's a position on the left side but playing as a winger and as the left inside forward/second striker is totally two different roles. Is it any surprise that he has looked more like himself, more confident in recent games when put in his natural position - e.g. inside forward/second striker - and when we look to play more to his strengths? In that role, we can utilize his pace to get into space, which he likes to do, and then look to score and/or create chances for others (like for Mount at the weekend). In the winger role, it's a different thing altogether because he'll receive the ball onto feet much more often and he's not great at dribbling past players and beat them consistently like a normal winger would. Couple that with Lampard's hit-and-hope crossing, slow passing football, it's little wonder why we had a player who looked totally lost under him. It's about playing to a player's strengths. Imagine you're an attacking midfielder and you're great at what you do and the manager suddenly put you in the defensive midfield role, want you to be a destroyer when you're not good at it and I criticize you for it. Wouldn't that be stupid of me to do that?

In fact, it's not only Werner who looked lost under Lampard. So many looked lost under his non-existent coaching. Lampard had all these attacking talents but because he didn't know what to do, we have wasted like half a season going nowhere with them and as a team. 

I agree with Havertz he has a higher ceiling but his age and lack of being played in one prominent position as good as it may seem for someone to be versatile, for me gives him more leniency as ultimately it’s still difficult to see where his actual best position is.

Again, with TT we are playing more to Timo’s strengths I will agree but as I said before with Frank in charge, he still had to do more. He isnt a winger for sure but the chances he created for Mount and in the last 2/3 games shows he is able to affect games more even if not playing as a central striker. Being wide on the left he had the chance to come infield more even with Frank but he was nowhere near good enough in those games most of the time and this was a concern. He did it v Newcastle for instance on the left side. Good players are adaptable and find other ways to affect the game, this is why I am disappointed with him the last few months. Others struggled for sure also with Frank but that still doesn’t explain the huge misses or the games he was virtually anonymous playing on the left. His confidence had gone also I think but I mean the chance he created for Mount are you telling me he couldn’t do that under Frank? Or be more productive at times? I get your a huge Werner fan and from your posts I can see this but he has had a huge period where even playing as a LW or CF where he was awful with Frank theres no two ways about it. Can say it was Positions, tactics or whatever but ultimately he still didn’t do enough. And good players even playing out of position, still find ways to affect the game or adapt to the system. Kante under Sarri (after many questions I felt he grew into the role well), Azpilicueta under Conte and now Tuchel, Hudson-Odoi under Tuchel v Wolves.... good players adjust. Obviously you have to accommodate him as he is a very good player and get him performing but he also had to adapt whilst playing on the left, do a job for the team, a position he has played at times in his career and with the German NT, and he simply didn’t at times. Being a striker is the hardest position in football I have no doubts about that but he started well playing on the left and as a CF, why couldnt he replicate or affect games in a way he was before? He could have done much more.

Suppose we will probably agree to disagree.

[Jase 43,479]

34 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I agree with Havertz he has a higher ceiling but his age and lack of being played in one prominent position as good as it may seem for someone to be versatile, for me gives him more leniency as ultimately it’s still difficult to see where his actual best position is.

Again, with TT we are playing more to Timo’s strengths I will agree but as I said before with Frank in charge, he still had to do more. He isnt a winger for sure but the chances he created for Mount and in the last 2/3 games shows he is able to affect games more even if not playing as a central striker. Being wide on the left he had the chance to come infield more even with Frank but he was nowhere near good enough in those games most of the time and this was a concern. He did it v Newcastle for instance on the left side. Good players are adaptable and find other ways to affect the game, this is why I am disappointed with him the last few months. Others struggled for sure also with Frank but that still doesn’t explain the huge misses or the games he was virtually anonymous playing on the left. His confidence had gone also I think but I mean the chance he created for Mount are you telling me he couldn’t do that under Frank? Or be more productive at times? I get your a huge Werner fan and from your posts I can see this but he has had a huge period where even playing as a LW or CF where he was awful with Frank theres no two ways about it. Can say it was Positions, tactics or whatever but ultimately he still didn’t do enough. And good players even playing out of position, still find ways to affect the game or adapt to the system. Kante under Sarri (after many questions I felt he grew into the role well), Azpilicueta under Conte and now Tuchel, Hudson-Odoi under Tuchel v Wolves.... good players adjust. Obviously you have to accommodate him as he is a very good player and get him performing but he also had to adapt whilst playing on the left, do a job for the team, a position he has played at times in his career and with the German NT, and he simply didn’t at times. Being a striker is the hardest position in football I have no doubts about that but he started well playing on the left and as a CF, why couldnt he replicate or affect games in a way he was before? He could have done much more.

Suppose we will probably agree to disagree.

For starters, let's not play the 'I'm a Werner fan' card here. I can understand the criticism about his finishing, touch/control and all but what I don't understand is the nonsense that's being spouted about the position stuff you mentioned. 

Good players adapt but at the same time, not every good player out there is capable of playing in different roles/positions. It doesn't make them any worse if they can't, like you're trying to make it out to be. You can keep on saying Werner should have done this and that under Lampard but at the end of the day and for the umpteenth time, he is not a winger in the winger role that he was asked to play under Lampard. "but he also had to adapt whilst playing on the left, do a job for the team, a position he has played at times in his career and with the German NT, and he simply didn’t at times." - Playing on the left as a winger and as a left inside forward is completely two different roles! Christ! Are you really that blind to not see what his strengths are and what he was asked to do by Lampard just didn't go together?

Also, Azpi grew into the RCB role because Conte worked with him on it. Can you really say the same with Lampard and his coaching after all the problems we saw under him? CHO may yet grow into the RWB role but he has played only 2 games there so far. Remains to be seen if that's gonna be his long term position.

"He did it v Newcastle for instance on the left side" - What is that based on? The run to set up Abraham for the second goal? If so, that really doesn't count considering it came in a counter attacking situation. As for the chance he created for Mount at the weekend, how often did you see us find the runners, play balls in behind opposition defence or play in Werner the way we did on several occasions against Sheffield United? Too often under Lampard, we would just indulge in slow, sideway passing and then just get the ball out wide to spam high crosses into the box. Never mind Werner, how is that even playing to anyone's strengths apart from Giroud and maybe Abraham as well? 

You thought Kante grew into the advanced midfield role? That's your opinion I guess but not sure if the performances really reflected that at all. He has looked decent at times playing there but also totally lost in that role. He is best as a midfield destroyer, as seen in the work he did for Leicester and under Conte. Asking him to try and be attack minded - score goals, create chances for others - was just a waste of his talents. Instead of getting a 100% Kante, a Kante whose obvious strengths can be maximized, we tried to turn into a 50-50 Kante by asking him to do something he's great and something he's not great at.

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

34 minutes ago, Jason said:

For starters, let's not play the 'I'm a Werner fan' card here. I can understand the criticism about his finishing, touch/control and all but what I don't understand is the nonsense that's being spouted about the position stuff you mentioned. 

Good players adapt but at the same time, not every good player out there is capable of playing in different roles/positions. It doesn't make them any worse if they can't, like you're trying to make it out to be. You can keep on saying Werner should have done this and that under Lampard but at the end of the day and for the umpteenth time, he is not a winger in the winger role that he was asked to play under Lampard. "but he also had to adapt whilst playing on the left, do a job for the team, a position he has played at times in his career and with the German NT, and he simply didn’t at times." - Playing on the left as a winger and as a left inside forward is completely two different roles! Christ! Are you really that blind to not see what his strengths are and what he was asked to do by Lampard just didn't go together?

Also, Azpi grew into the RCB role because Conte worked with him on it. Can you really say the same with Lampard and his coaching after all the problems we saw under him? CHO may yet grow into the RWB role but he has played only 2 games there so far. Remains to be seen if that's gonna be his long term position.

"He did it v Newcastle for instance on the left side" - What is that based on? The run to set up Abraham for the second goal? If so, that really doesn't count considering it came in a counter attacking situation. As for the chance he created for Mount at the weekend, how often did you see us find the runners, play balls in behind opposition defence or play in Werner the way we did on several occasions against Sheffield United? Too often under Lampard, we would just indulge in slow, sideway passing and then just get the ball out wide to spam high crosses into the box. Never mind Werner, how is that even playing to anyone's strengths apart from Giroud and maybe Abraham as well? 

You thought Kante grew into the advanced midfield role? That's your opinion I guess but not sure if the performances really reflected that at all. He has looked decent at times playing there but also totally lost in that role. He is best as a midfield destroyer, as seen in the work he did for Leicester and under Conte. Asking him to try and be attack minded - score goals, create chances for others - was just a waste of his talents. Instead of getting a 100% Kante, a Kante whose obvious strengths can be maximized, we tried to turn into a 50-50 Kante by asking him to do something he's great and something he's not great at.

Dont give me that Jason, thats lazy. Guys like Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial have spent years playing as a left winger under various managers at United but they always come in off the line and played as inside forwards. Eden Hazard also did the same at times here. Its not as if Timo was fixed on the left wing and told he cannot move from there. Its just laziness to suggest so, almost as if everything that happens isn’t Werners or any other underperforming players fault.... Lampard can be only be blamed for so much, I think your purely blaming Lampard and not Werner which isn’t exactly right and its not just the same for Werner its the same for several others. No doubt Lampard’s tactics and style of football deserves some blame but did he say to Timo your playing left wing, you cannot go inside closer to the goal or you have to provide the width in a system where the fullbacks continuously overlap and cross the ball? Don’t be so naive. Look at Pulisic on the left wing for us last season as a prime example how many times did he arrive in the box? How often did he drift inside? A lot. 

If you cant see that then I suppose we should 100% agree to disagree on Werner. Just seems very biased. As if nothing was his fault. Also v Newcastle he did well, more than just the assist, he and Tammy were the best players on the park quite comfortably. 

[Jase 43,479]

18 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Dont give me that Jason, thats lazy. Guys like Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial have spent years playing as a left winger under various managers at United but they always come in off the line and played as inside forwards. Eden Hazard also did the same at times here. Its not as if Timo was fixed on the left wing and told he cannot move from there. Its just laziness to suggest so, almost as if everything that happens isn’t Werners or any other underperforming players fault.... Lampard can be only be blamed for so much, I think your purely blaming Lampard and not Werner which isn’t exactly right and its not just the same for Werner its the same for several others. No doubt Lampard’s tactics and style of football deserves some blame but did he say to Timo your playing left wing, you cannot go inside closer to the goal or you have to provide the width in a system where the fullbacks continuously overlap and cross the ball? Don’t be so naive. Look at Pulisic on the left wing for us last season as a prime example how many times did he arrive in the box? How often did he drift inside? A lot. 

If you cant see that then I suppose we should 100% agree to disagree on Werner. Just seems very biased. As if nothing was his fault. Also v Newcastle he did well, more than just the assist, he and Tammy were the best players on the park quite comfortably. 

Just seems very biased? If you can't see the difference between a winger and left inside forward, if you expect a player to perform well/consistently in a role that's alien, then I don't know what to say. Play players in ideal position and then we'll judge the performances from there. So yeah, agree to disagree...

[Vesper 29,021]

 

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Wednesday February 10 2021 Matt Law's Chelsea briefing

German's willingness to take responsibility offers hope amid goal drought By Matt Law, Football News Correspondent When Fernando Torres stopped scoring, he stopped talking and Alvaro Morata displayed a similar instinct to dodge reporters and television cameras when his shooting was equally evasive. So it was encouraging to see Timo Werner put himself in front of the television cameras after stretching his Chelsea goal drought to 14 Premier League games at Sheffield United. Sure, Werner had been given the man of the match award for assisting Mason Mount’s opening goal and winning the penalty from which Jorginho scored, but he could have easily given Sky’s interview request a swerve. Sky pundit Graeme Souness, so often excellent in his analysis of games and players, labelled Werner ‘Timid Timo’, but there was nothing timid about facing questions over his lack of goals or handing penalty responsibilities back to Jorginho. It may have even come as a surprise to Sky about how readily their request to interview Werner straight after the game was accepted. He did not take any convincing and also happily spoke to Chelsea’s in-house TV station 30 minutes later. The 24-year-old was open and honest, admitting that he should probably score a ‘normal’ goal before taking another penalty, having recently missed from the spot against Luton Town in the FA Cup. There was also no sense of anger or resentment towards the question, when he was asked about his goal drought and the effect it is having on him. Chelsea supporters may not care whether or not their players speak to reporters, but the fact Werner was willing to face up to his difficulties and speak publicly about them took courage, maturity and a self-awareness that should stand him in good stead. It was a surprise to hear Souness speak so harshly about Werner’s prospects of succeeding in England, given the number of players who have taken time to adjust to the Premier League and gone on to become big hits. Souness had just watched Werner play a contributing factor in both of Chelsea’s goals and would have presumably remembered that the former RB Leipzig star had also won the penalty from which Jorginho scored the winning goal against Tottenham Hotspur a few days earlier. The spot-kick against Sheffield United was Chelsea’s 14th of the season and seven of those have been won by Werner. No Chelsea player has won more in a single season, a fact missed by Souness. There were encouraging signs from Werner against Sheffield United CREDIT: PA Souness would have no doubt labelled both Kevin De Bruyne and Mohamed Salah ‘timid’ for their performances in a Chelsea shirt before they went away, matured and returned to become two of the Premier League’s best players in recent years. Manchester City supporters, who do not forget much, still remember the way in which central defender Vincent Kompany was written off during the early days of his career in England. There is no guarantee, of course, that Werner will come through this tough patch to become a great success at Stamford Bridge, but the signs are far more encouraging than when the likes of Torres and Morata retreated into their shells. In many ways it is a cliche to praise Werner for continuing to get into positions to score, but the German cannot be accused of hiding - on or off the pitch - and one hopes he can now find his shooting boots and prove Souness wrong. Get in touch at @Matt_Law_DT or via [email protected].

[Jase 43,479]

Nobody has anything to say about Werner? 🤣

Super delighted that he finally ended his goal drought and got the goal that he deserved. Said it before and will say it again, has looked so much better recently playing in his natural position. Even when he's not scoring, he's impacting games in other ways way more than in his previous winger role. Already contributed a number of assists and won 7 penalties this season. 

Also, any comparison with Morata and Torres is fucking stupid and lazy. Yes, Werner has missed chances but unlike those two, Werner has always kept going, kept getting at the end of chances, kept trying to impact games. He's never hid like those two and unlike Morata, he doesn't fall over easily, moan to referees about decisions going against him or moan to the media about how he's not loved/why no one is passing to him etc. If you have seen Werner's interviews, you can tell that he has a good mentality, attitude and humility about him. Those personal attributes can go a long way to helping a player become successful.

[Jase 43,479]

 

[killer1257 3,282]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

Nobody has anything to say about Werner? 🤣

Super delighted that he finally ended his goal drought and got the goal that he deserved. Said it before and will say it again, has looked so much better recently playing in his natural position. Even when he's not scoring, he's impacting games in other ways way more than in his previous winger role. Already contributed a number of assists and won 7 penalties this season. 

Also, any comparison with Morata and Torres is fucking stupid and lazy. Yes, Werner has missed chances but unlike those two, Werner has always kept going, kept getting at the end of chances, kept trying to impact games. He's never hid like those two and unlike Morata, he doesn't fall over easily, moan to referees about decisions going against him or moan to the media about how he's not loved/why no one is passing to him etc. If you have seen Werner's interviews, you can tell that he has a good mentality, attitude and humility about him. Those personal attributes can go a long way to helping a player become successful.

Good game by him, but I hope he somehow gets his first touch to a level that is good enough for high level football. Obviously, not every touch can be perfect and I have seen even Messi make a bad first touch, but a bad first touch happens to Werner all the time. 

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, killer1257 said:

Good game by him, but I hope he somehow gets his first touch to a level that is good enough for high level football. Obviously, not every touch can be perfect and I have seen even Messi make a bad first touch, but a bad first touch happens to Werner all the time. 

CHRIST! LET US CELEBRATE FOR ONCE! 

[killer1257 3,282]

Just now, Jason said:

CHRIST! LET US CELEBRATE FOR ONCE! 

I started my post on a positive thing though🙄. I said he had a good game. 

I am just saying that long term wise, we need him to have a decent first touch. His speed and his movements are alright. What he is lacking is first touch and finishing

[Tomo 21,733]

Haven't been that worried about his goal drought for these reasons.

A) He wasn't down the middle for most of it.

B ) He was still contributing with top class contributions, first goal tonight, SHU away, Spurs away, WHU home, Leeds away, Newcastle away where he made top contributions to a goal during his drought.

[Azul 1,615]

He has to start scoring consistently. The amount of chances he misses is unacceptable, and we shouldn't treat him as a baby. He is our main striker, and if he is the guy to lead us to titles in the future then I expect to see a level of confidence and ruthlessness from him.

I'm happy he got the goal today, but I expect much more from him.