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35 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Was it Petit? He wasnt even in same position. Neither were Makelele or Veron being creative midfileders. So no, this wasnt Lamps direct competition. Lamps was at the time our main choice.

He was brought as THE signing. In case of Odoi or Mount; Kai and Ziyech are the signings who will start. 

I mean what do people think? Are you trying to believe this is gonna work and our youth will flourish?

Mount played almost all games last season and he was good. The CLUB then decided we need to spend 100m in his position. And 40m on RW where Odoi could easily play. And 60m where Tammy could play. 

Its clear arent youth isnt trusted enough if the board went and splashed 200m on new arrivals.

Kai is biggest AM talent in the world. But yes sure, the club believes in Mount so much, he will definately play ahead if he is good enough😄

The only way our youth will play isnt if they play well, but if these new stars flop. 

Liverpool could splash millions on new RB but they stuck with Trent. If they bought expensive RB who would perform, it wouldnt matter if Trent was good in cup game here and there. Big game and that new reliable expensive RB will get picked 9/10 times.

What are you people smoking...we had good go with the youth, but its over. We will be better team now for sure. Kai is better than Mount. Werner over Tammy etc. But we wont have youth core. These players wont be big players for us. They will be good rotation options, but never key players.

That is unless new signings flop or get injury prone.

You mention Trent well.

1. Right back is completely different, that's one position, CM, AM and wingers are really fluid and offer a lot of game time and rotation, even more in the season to come. We can play two number 8s like City did (which allows room for Havertz and Mount) while CHO has actually gone from 4th choice winger to 3rd. The only academy player that's likely going to see a massive cut down of minutes is Abraham, which is no disgrace, having a back up forward like him is what's allowed us the funds to sign big names.

2. We have a young prospect at right back, and we abandoned attempts to sign Hakimi because of that. 

Re Lamps, back then we played 442 so any CM signing even if not exactly the same type of player was very much a threat to him.

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1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

Is this realy bs people believe?

Was Sancho good enough? Because he looks pretty damn good to me. Yet City decided to buy Mahrez and Silva instead of giving chance to Sancho.

Yea he would play sure. Maybe a game every 100 years. But he wouldnt develop like he did in Bvb. 

This crap about if he is good he will play is worlds biggest load of crap. Lets say Odoi plays well. Will Ziyech be benched? Kai? Puli? Never. It would take Odoi to play 10-20 games in row to leave any sort of mark. One game wont change shit. And only if someone gets injured, he will get those 10+ games. Sancho at the time wasnt "good enough" to play so Pep didnt play him. But you dont judge them on now, but on 1,2, 5 years from now. Can Odoi be great player then? Yes. What does he need to achieve? Faith and playtime as in first 11, week in and out. Will we do that? No because we forked 200m on others.

So no, playtime here and there with side role isnt gonna make CHO or anyone else here a worldbeater. 

Sancho never got a chance at City. Look around, Fati gets the chance as 17yo and you see there is a lot of potential so he will play even in Barca. It is the same with all wunderkind talent around the world.

Do you know how much Mount played last season? Abraham? Even in previous clubs. I myself saw more than 5000 minutes of both of them and I think I know what is their level and what kind of a players they are.

If we continue with them as starters they may become just a little bit better but we should already have an idea of their future level and it is not Chelsea starters (my opinion). In fact, I think Mount was overplayed last season.

James and CHO are still not there, they should play more and I never criticized them because I think they did not fulfill even 20% of possible potential.

James last season played around 50% of all minutes, this season he will play even more and even more in the season after. So it is up to him.

It is the same with CHO. I mean we have just 3 wingers, so he is the 1st backup for both Ziyech and Pulisic. And Pulisic is injured all the time so Callum will play a lot. Again it is on him.

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1 hour ago, DDA said:

In hindsight, Sarri was bang on the money although if it wasn't for that injury, I truly believe Odoi had that special aura and ability about him to go full steam into stardom. I'm literally praying to the footballing Gods that this version of Odoi we are currently witnessing is down to confidence rather than an apparent loss of pace and acceleration. 

I really want Cho to be great but I think since the injury he looks bang average. Today his passing/decision making was pretty poor. Hope he steps up

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Just hope whoever it is, we have a new keeper in in time for match week 1. Really don't want to see Kepa in there for a month until the window closes.

This Mendy dude has the profile to suit us. He's fucking massive, seems to be commanding and assertive enough for the PL, and at 28 he's not going to be in over his head and inexperienced. Plays at a decent level for a side that finished 3rd in Ligue 1. 

There are a few concerns watching his highlights, though. He is frequently parrying the ball back into dangerous areas. He also seems to frequently punch or push away what look to be easily catchable shots. And lastly, I have no clue what his distribution is like since it's not really shown in the vid I watched.

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43 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Was it Petit? He wasnt even in same position. Neither were Makelele or Veron being creative midfileders. So no, this wasnt Lamps direct competition. Lamps was at the time our main choice.

He was brought as THE signing. In case of Odoi or Mount; Kai and Ziyech are the signings who will start. 

I mean what do people think? Are you trying to believe this is gonna work and our youth will flourish?

Mount played almost all games last season and he was good. The CLUB then decided we need to spend 100m in his position. And 40m on RW where Odoi could easily play. And 60m where Tammy could play. 

Its clear arent youth isnt trusted enough if the board went and splashed 200m on new arrivals.

Kai is biggest AM talent in the world. But yes sure, the club believes in Mount so much, he will definately play ahead if he is good enough😄

The only way our youth will play isnt if they play well, but if these new stars flop. 

Liverpool could splash millions on new RB but they stuck with Trent. If they bought expensive RB who would perform, it wouldnt matter if Trent was good in cup game here and there. Big game and that new reliable expensive RB will get picked 9/10 times.

What are you people smoking...we had good go with the youth, but its over. We will be better team now for sure. Kai is better than Mount. Werner over Tammy etc. But we wont have youth core. These players wont be big players for us. They will be good rotation options, but never key players.

That is unless new signings flop or get injury prone.

Lampard and Petit were both central midfielders in a 4-4-2. The idea was they were being brought in to play together but Lampard was coming into a far more competitive and ruthless environment than he witnessed at West Ham. People forget that the Lampard that joined Chelsea wasn't even a shadow of what he came to be. Most Chelsea fans at the time felt it was a massive reach paying what we did for him and that Petit was the big signing that summer. Lampard actually improved as the quality of player was added. He raised his game consistently.

Dennis Wise was another great example of this. As the club pushed on in the late 90's we added the likes of Di Matteo, Poyet, Deschamps, etc but Wise kept elevating himself to remain a key player in the squad.

Lampard will take that experience in his own career and view it as an opportunity for these young players to raise their game. Lampard has also proven that he's prepared to drop players if they play poorly (Kepa, Jorginho, the whole defence) regardless of the price tag and there were also alternatives last season when the likes of Mount, Abraham, Tomori and James were getting game time. If the new signings are struggling for form, I'm very confident that Lampard would have no hesitation to drop them.

I want young Chelsea players amongst the squad but I also want the club to be winning. Ideally we'll see both but Lampard's priority has to be the latter.

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1 hour ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Lampard and Petit were both central midfielders in a 4-4-2. The idea was they were being brought in to play together but Lampard was coming into a far more competitive and ruthless environment than he witnessed at West Ham. People forget that the Lampard that joined Chelsea wasn't even a shadow of what he came to be. Most Chelsea fans at the time felt it was a massive reach paying what we did for him and that Petit was the big signing that summer. Lampard actually improved as the quality of player was added. He raised his game consistently.

Dennis Wise was another great example of this. As the club pushed on in the late 90's we added the likes of Di Matteo, Poyet, Deschamps, etc but Wise kept elevating himself to remain a key player in the squad.

Lampard will take that experience in his own career and view it as an opportunity for these young players to raise their game. Lampard has also proven that he's prepared to drop players if they play poorly (Kepa, Jorginho, the whole defence) regardless of the price tag and there were also alternatives last season when the likes of Mount, Abraham, Tomori and James were getting game time. If the new signings are struggling for form, I'm very confident that Lampard would have no hesitation to drop them.

I want young Chelsea players amongst the squad but I also want the club to be winning. Ideally we'll see both but Lampard's priority has to be the latter.

Exactly. Better players breed competition, competition breeds better form and better form leads to overall success. 

It's healthy to have competition for places.

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41 minutes ago, Muzchap said:

Exactly. Better players breed competition, competition breeds better form and better form leads to overall success. 

It's healthy to have competition for places.

It’s the main reasons we stagnated after our last 2 title wins beside the manager failing to manage properly big time. We did not sign any real reinforcement and players got just that little bit more complacent 

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3 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Was it Petit? He wasnt even in same position. Neither were Makelele or Veron being creative midfileders. So no, this wasnt Lamps direct competition. Lamps was at the time our main choice.

He was brought as THE signing. In case of Odoi or Mount; Kai and Ziyech are the signings who will start. 

I mean what do people think? Are you trying to believe this is gonna work and our youth will flourish?

Mount played almost all games last season and he was good. The CLUB then decided we need to spend 100m in his position. And 40m on RW where Odoi could easily play. And 60m where Tammy could play. 

Its clear arent youth isnt trusted enough if the board went and splashed 200m on new arrivals.

Kai is biggest AM talent in the world. But yes sure, the club believes in Mount so much, he will definately play ahead if he is good enough😄

The only way our youth will play isnt if they play well, but if these new stars flop. 

Liverpool could splash millions on new RB but they stuck with Trent. If they bought expensive RB who would perform, it wouldnt matter if Trent was good in cup game here and there. Big game and that new reliable expensive RB will get picked 9/10 times.

What are you people smoking...we had good go with the youth, but its over. We will be better team now for sure. Kai is better than Mount. Werner over Tammy etc. But we wont have youth core. These players wont be big players for us. They will be good rotation options, but never key players.

That is unless new signings flop or get injury prone.

Think about what you are saying. This is Chelsea, the club is competing for trophies and the last thing i would want is for the the club to settle and think that last season's squad is good enough on basis that it finished top 4. Even if most youngsters don't become indisputable in the coming years (let's assume only Mount and James make the cut and the others are fringe players), that is a much better situation than the one we've seen over the last decade when it comes to youngsters.

Listening to you, it looks like you would rather have the young as starters compete for top 4-6 rather than having top players joining and be part of the discussion for a return to the top. We're not Southampton...

What top club in Europe is having success integrating lots of their young at the moment? Yeah...

Also, what if the club did not sign Kai and Mount got injured? The club is supposed to rely exclusively on RLC, which has a huge question mark on his head? And that's a false debate IMO, the squad will have an extremely busy schedule next season and Mount will see plenty of game time, same for CHO and the others. If one of them is truly class, he'll play.

That's funny you would bring up Trent and the RB situation. The board really wanted to buy Hakimi and Lamps pulled the plug because he trusts James to do the job. What's your take on that then?

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Simon1991 said:

That's funny you would bring up Trent and the RB situation. The board really wanted to buy Hakimi and Lamps pulled the plug because he trusts James to do the job. What's your take on that then?

And speaking of Trent and Liverpool, what about Harry Wilson? 

Every time I watched Derby because of Mount and Tomori and Frank he is the guy that impressed me most. 15 goals for Frank that season.

Even last season 7 goals in the PL for relegated team in just 1663 minutes. Very good player. Why Klopp did not gave him a chance? Forget starting lineup, no place as a backup? He putted more trust in some random Japanese dude?

He may now be sold for 15-20m to some PL team... 

I do not know if last couple of years struggles changed the perspective for some fans but sometimes I cannot believe what I am reading. Some want us to suffer for two more years and than to win title...

I think if you mention something like that in the meeting with Roman he would kick you out... That is bullshit considering we have all the resources.

And after all we have our own experience. Mourinho in his 1st spell here did not need 3 years to build something, and how much time Conte needed to change things? 

For example if we did not have transfer ban and Sarri stayed I would want title in his second season. He did well in the 1st year. 3rd place, won EL, cup final even managed youth nicely. What is after that?

He would probably buy back than 3 or 4 great players like Aouar, Barella, KK... He got Jorginho, Kovacic, Kepa in the first season as well. Sorry, but as a Chelsea fan I am not programmed to celebrate top4...

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2 hours ago, Simon1991 said:

Think about what you are saying. This is Chelsea, the club is competing for trophies and the last thing i would want is for the the club to settle and think that last season's squad is good enough on basis that it finished top 4. Even if most youngsters don't become indisputable in the coming years (let's assume only Mount and James make the cut and the others are fringe players), that is a much better situation than the one we've seen over the last decade when it comes to youngsters.

Listening to you, it looks like you would rather have the young as starters compete for top 4-6 rather than having top players joining and be part of the discussion for a return to the top. We're not Southampton...

What top club in Europe is having success integrating lots of their young at the moment? Yeah...

Also, what if the club did not sign Kai and Mount got injured? The club is supposed to rely exclusively on RLC, which has a huge question mark on his head? And that's a false debate IMO, the squad will have an extremely busy schedule next season and Mount will see plenty of game time, same for CHO and the others. If one of them is truly class, he'll play.

That's funny you would bring up Trent and the RB situation. The board really wanted to buy Hakimi and Lamps pulled the plug because he trusts James to do the job. What's your take on that then?

 

 

For me, after last season ended, the key needs were;

New GK, massively improve defence, buy prolific striker and replacement for Willian: a rotational RW so it doesnt hinder Odoi progress but adds depth.

Why?

Because despite our youth apparently isnt good enough, we actualy scored plenty goals and created far far far more. A prolific striker and the fact our players would naturaly improve as individuals and team, that would improve our efficiency which was a problem. Still, we scored many goals though. And Pulisic if fit would play whole season, big benefits too.

On other hand, our defence was beyond crap. If possible all bar Azpi and maybe Zouma/Tomori should be replaced. That goes for our DM too. 

Because man, that defence was championship bad. Not bad. I havent seen worse defending in years.

BUT. What happened? We forked out shitload on our attack which was already very good and promising. And we brought 36 year stop gap CB (who given circumstances is very good option, a smart option but isnt exactly long terma and doesnt fix these problems) and Chilwell (not my fav but ok its definately improvement). Maybe we get a GK, but who? Possibly not a top top one because our money went into attack. 

So basicaly, our club wasnt happy enough with attack to point they signed players worth 200m, yet defenders who were complete dogshit will get another season of chances. 

Shouldnt be the other way around? 

As for James I said it plenty times he is exception and might actualy have chances as starter, read the posts entirely before asking me out...

But hey everyone was jerking on our youth and how they excelled the expectations. Now suddenly we will be southampton next year if they were our starters. Because the new shiny toys are popular now.

I mean look Im not pissed with new transfers at all. We will look like a powerhouse again probably. But youth project is done. When will people get it, even if Mount plays what 30 games out of 60, no way he starts ahead of Kai in big games when both fit and in form. See where Im getting at? Its not the play time. Yes rotation will be there and Mount, Odoi will play. Its CL key game and you throw your players out there. Mount will sit those out when new signings will be fit. Unless they are flopping.

At the end of the day our board made it clear we have Werner, Kai, Puli and Ziyech as our star players now.

Lamps will play Mount indeed, but you dont apporove 100m purchase if you have faith in Mount haha. Rotation? Right, Kai is coming to take the spot from minute 1.

The whole point of trusting in youth is to play Mount as your main player next year and sure he will be piss poor in some games, but players develop and one day he becomes top player. Reward for faith. But we just went and bought Kai and co for quicker success. Because of the oportunities or corona or whatever, doesnt change the fact club drooled over new players and if we kept playing with Mount, Odoi etc we would be competing with Soton. I mean didnt we just get to top 4 and could be much better if we had better defence? 

There was opportunity to create homegrown core, but we decided to go 2003 and buy a new team. It is what it is.

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5 hours ago, Tomo said:

You mention Trent well.

1. Right back is completely different, that's one position, CM, AM and wingers are really fluid and offer a lot of game time and rotation, even more in the season to come. We can play two number 8s like City did (which allows room for Havertz and Mount) while CHO has actually gone from 4th choice winger to 3rd. The only academy player that's likely going to see a massive cut down of minutes is Abraham, which is no disgrace, having a back up forward like him is what's allowed us the funds to sign big names.

2. We have a young prospect at right back, and we abandoned attempts to sign Hakimi because of that. 

Re Lamps, back then we played 442 so any CM signing even if not exactly the same type of player was very much a threat to him.

Rotation is good, but give me Pool undisputed front 3 over Peps rotational play where no player knows his role bar maybe Sterling, Laporte and Ederson.

So if we are going to rotate like crazy, nothing good will come out of it. That just fucks up entire mentality in big games. 

Mount will be seen as quality alternative, but thats it. Alternative. Not a first choice week in week out player.

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1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

For me, after last season ended, the key needs were;

New GK, massively improve defence, buy prolific striker and replacement for Willian: a rotational RW so it doesnt hinder Odoi progress but adds depth.

Why?

Because despite our youth apparently isnt good enough, we actualy scored plenty goals and created far far far more. A prolific striker and the fact our players would naturaly improve as individuals and team, that would improve our efficiency which was a problem. Still, we scored many goals though. And Pulisic if fit would play whole season, big benefits too.

On other hand, our defence was beyond crap. If possible all bar Azpi and maybe Zouma/Tomori should be replaced. That goes for our DM too. 

Because man, that defence was championship bad. Not bad. I havent seen worse defending in years.

BUT. What happened? We forked out shitload on our attack which was already very good and promising. And we brought 36 year stop gap CB (who given circumstances is very good option, a smart option but isnt exactly long terma and doesnt fix these problems) and Chilwell (not my fav but ok its definately improvement). Maybe we get a GK, but who? Possibly not a top top one because our money went into attack. 

So basicaly, our club wasnt happy enough with attack to point they signed players worth 200m, yet defenders who were complete dogshit will get another season of chances. 

Shouldnt be the other way around? 

As for James I said it plenty times he is exception and might actualy have chances as starter, read the posts entirely before asking me out...

But hey everyone was jerking on our youth and how they excelled the expectations. Now suddenly we will be southampton next year if they were our starters. Because the new shiny toys are popular now.

I mean look Im not pissed with new transfers at all. We will look like a powerhouse again probably. But youth project is done. When will people get it, even if Mount plays what 30 games out of 60, no way he starts ahead of Kai in big games when both fit and in form. See where Im getting at? Its not the play time. Yes rotation will be there and Mount, Odoi will play. Its CL key game and you throw your players out there. Mount will sit those out when new signings will be fit. Unless they are flopping.

At the end of the day our board made it clear we have Werner, Kai, Puli and Ziyech as our star players now.

Lamps will play Mount indeed, but you dont apporove 100m purchase if you have faith in Mount haha. Rotation? Right, Kai is coming to take the spot from minute 1.

The whole point of trusting in youth is to play Mount as your main player next year and sure he will be piss poor in some games, but players develop and one day he becomes top player. Reward for faith. But we just went and bought Kai and co for quicker success. Because of the oportunities or corona or whatever, doesnt change the fact club drooled over new players and if we kept playing with Mount, Odoi etc we would be competing with Soton. I mean didnt we just get to top 4 and could be much better if we had better defence? 

There was opportunity to create homegrown core, but we decided to go 2003 and buy a new team. It is what it is.

Thanks for taking the time to argument and provide a thorough answer.

Ok i think i understand the point you're making, which is why did the club prioritize attacking signings instead of dealing with the more obvious aera to improve which is the defense, fair enough.

I do see a few contradictions in your post, and i am going to get into details why i think the club's strategy makes sense, so far.

"New GK, massively improve defence, buy prolific striker and replacement for Willian: a rotational RW so it doesnt hinder Odoi progress but adds depth."

Prolific striker: i imagine you are happy with Werner, and you should i think he'll be amazing for this club.

RW: So you are saying we should not have purchased a proven quality player for a reasonable price (and low wages), but rather have gone for a worse player not to block CHO's development? Two issues for me here.

1) CHO has not proven enough to show he can fill Willian's boots and be a starter.

2) If you settle for lesser quality, you are taking the risk the player will not be good enough, even for rotation and the club might end up with more deadwood. Clubs pay that kind of money for average players nowadays, so why not go for quality right away if available at the same price?

 

If i read into your post correctly, your biggest issue is with Kai. For him i think the club was just pragmatic and took advantage of a terrific opportunity to snap a top top talent that probably would have not been available next summer. This kind of signing is what is needed to close the gap and make those playing around him better. CHO and Mount will benefit from that i am sure.

You insist that Kai would take Mount's game time, but for all we know Frank might be playing with two 8's (Kai AND Mount). If not, there will still be lots of game to be played, and Mount has also shown he's better when fresh and rested, so try to look at this as a positive and another amazing option for Frank. On the part where you mention Frank's faith in Mount. Come on don't be ridiculous it is obvious that the gaffer highly rates him and has complete faith in him.

Now regarding the defense and GK, it seems like the next thing on the agenda is the GK, so patience, it will get fixed. I also think your argument about funds being unavailable for a GK because spent in attack is not great.

First we don't know what funds are there still and second, I highly doubt the club would have gone for another really expensive keeper anyway, not after Kepa's fiasco. Let's just assume they would have for the sake of the discussion, what top GK should the club have chased? 

In defence, we might still sign Rice who knows. Either way, you said it yourself, TS is here as a stop gap and we can still sign Rice next year he is not going anywhere. If anything it would strenghten the club's position with Rice's contract being further down one year. 

My point really is that doing it the other way around (Rice this year, Kai the next) would most likely not be possible at all, hence the club's strategic decision to go for Kai this summer.

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1 hour ago, Simon1991 said:

Thanks for taking the time to argument and provide a thorough answer.

Ok i think i understand the point you're making, which is why did the club prioritize attacking signings instead of dealing with the more obvious aera to improve which is the defense, fair enough.

I do see a few contradictions in your post, and i am going to get into details why i think the club's strategy makes sense, so far.

"New GK, massively improve defence, buy prolific striker and replacement for Willian: a rotational RW so it doesnt hinder Odoi progress but adds depth."

Prolific striker: i imagine you are happy with Werner, and you should i think he'll be amazing for this club.

RW: So you are saying we should not have purchased a proven quality player for a reasonable price (and low wages), but rather have gone for a worse player not to block CHO's development? Two issues for me here.

1) CHO has not proven enough to show he can fill Willian's boots and be a starter.

2) If you settle for lesser quality, you are taking the risk the player will not be good enough, even for rotation and the club might end up with more deadwood. Clubs pay that kind of money for average players nowadays, so why not go for quality right away if available at the same price?

 

If i read into your post correctly, your biggest issue is with Kai. For him i think the club was just pragmatic and took advantage of a terrific opportunity to snap a top top talent that probably would have not been available next summer. This kind of signing is what is needed to close the gap and make those playing around him better. CHO and Mount will benefit from that i am sure.

You insist that Kai would take Mount's game time, but for all we know Frank might be playing with two 8's (Kai AND Mount). If not, there will still be lots of game to be played, and Mount has also shown he's better when fresh and rested, so try to look at this as a positive and another amazing option for Frank. On the part where you mention Frank's faith in Mount. Come on don't be ridiculous it is obvious that the gaffer highly rates him and has complete faith in him.

Now regarding the defense and GK, it seems like the next thing on the agenda is the GK, so patience, it will get fixed. I also think your argument about funds being unavailable for a GK because spent in attack is not great.

First we don't know what funds are there still and second, I highly doubt the club would have gone for another really expensive keeper anyway, not after Kepa's fiasco. Let's just assume they would have for the sake of the discussion, what top GK should the club have chased? 

In defence, we might still sign Rice who knows. Either way, you said it yourself, TS is here as a stop gap and we can still sign Rice next year he is not going anywhere. If anything it would strenghten the club's position with Rice's contract being further down one year. 

My point really is that doing it the other way around (Rice this year, Kai the next) would most likely not be possible at all, hence the club's strategic decision to go for Kai this summer.

Werner and ziyech signing are almost must have. We need one more winger with Willian and pedro gone. ST position, Giroud is 60+,michy is useless, we need one more. 

Kai signing is the only one that is a bit questionable. Based on the rumor, he will cost 100 m and not sure it is a positional need or upgrade need so like I said it before he better be really2 good. 

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Look anybody is better than Kepa IMHO 
Yeah. I'd be happy getting some lower league dirt cheap keeper just for a season if need be. If he can at least look intimidating in goal I'll take it. Lol

Fuck it just put RLC in goal. Big takes up a lot of the goal. Better dustribution etc
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