Super Frank Thread

[Jase 43,479]

15 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

So[mention=4712]Jason[/mention] said that Ziyech and Pulisic played one match together in CL and no PL matches together.

So do people here believe that Spurs would be where they are now in the table if Son and Kane played zero PL matches together? Do people here believe that Liverpool would be in their current position if Mane and Salah played zero matches together in PL ? Because I don't think so.

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What I would say is, until we see Pulisic and Ziyech play together and actually be the difference makers or saviors that people are making them out to be, we do not know it is guarantee that they will lead us to the top of the table. It is not like we have not had chances to go top of table or not win games without one or both of them. 

Also, Son and Kane have been at Spurs together for years but this is the first time they are really up there. What's the difference between then and now? They have a title winning manager at the helm now. They have someone who has seen it and done it all. Should also add that Son and Kane have been outperforming their xGs by A LOT this season, which suggests whatever they are doing now may well be unsustainable for the whole of the season.

[killer1257 3,282]

What I would say is, until we see Pulisic and Ziyech play together and actually be the difference makers or saviors that people are making them out to be, we do not know it is guarantee that they will lead us to the top of the table. It is not like we have not had chances to go top of table or not win games without one or both of them. 
Also, Son and Kane have been at Spurs together for years but this is the first time they are really up there. What's the difference between then and now? They have a title winning manager at the helm now. They have someone who has seen it and done it all. Should also add that Son and Kane have been outperforming their xGs by A LOT this season, which suggests whatever they are doing now may well be unsustainable for the whole of the season.

To be honest, I am sure Poch was once close winning the PL and he was close winning the CL title. It is not like they have a garbage squad. One difference now is that both Kane and Son are not injured at the moment and usually one of them misses 3 months out because of an injury. It did not happen yet that they suffered a big injury.

But from what we have seen from Ziyech in the blue shirt until now and what we have seen from Pulisic last season, I think that they are much more quality than we have right now. Werner will only work if we have a guy like Ziyech, who plays him passes, so Werner can utilize his pace more. Werner is not effective when you just play him a pass to his feet and he has to dribble past people.
Pulisic is our only 1 vs 1 winger we have in our squad that is Chelsea level starting material. CHO is not there yet and even he is injured and believe me, I would rather have CHO as a left winger than Werner. All day long. Ziyech is our only creative player. I critizice Lampard for not giving Billy more chances, but Lampard sees in Mount world class potential in the creative department. But also many TC guys think that. So our perfect starting fron three would mean that we only have on creative player in the starting line up and one player that is good in 1 vs 1 situations.

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[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

To be honest, I am sure Poch was once close winning the PL and he was close winning the CL title. It is not like they have a garbage squad. One difference now is that both Kane and Son are not injured at the moment and usually one of them misses 3 months out because of an injury. It did not happen yet that they suffered a big injury.

Define "close". Spurs had a great chance to win in 2015/16 but then bottled it when their only real challenger were Leicester and they ended up finishing 3rd in what was a two-horse title race. Similar to their Champions League run, they may have reached the final but they never looked like overturning Liverpool in that final, especially after conceding an early goal. Whether Mourinho can take Spurs over the finishing line and win a trophy - even just a domestic cup trophy - remains to be seen but Pochettino never did so.

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, Azul said:

I bet you started supporting Chelsea after Abramovich bought the club and you're calling me plastic? There is a difference between supporting your club and supporting your manager, get it through your thick skull.  

 

You know what though, keep the same energy in 2 months. Assuming I don't want the club to win just because I don't see Lampard as a manager who's not good enough. This is how low iq some Chelsea fans can be smh.

 

 

 

 

 

I started supporting Chelsea when Zola was a player as he was and is still is one of my favourite players. Goes on to show how much you know. Just because you are a plastic does not mean everyone else is, fellow "fan"

Whatever I think is still way better than you throwing your toys out of pram after we lost 2 games after going unbeaten in 17 (yes 17!!!!!) Freaking games. And then saying that even if the manager wins the next 5, you would still not support him. That's not just low, that is downright bullshit. Majority of Chelsea's fan base was after Roman, that don't make them "plastic", the fact that you can't get behind your team and manager after 2 losses, definitely makes you one. You are fucking fine with Liverpool and their injuries and yet fail to give us any leeway when we did not have all 3 of our wingers available. Similarly Liverpool only have their CBs missing from their starting 11, rest are available , yet they dropped points to freaking fulham.

 

[Fernando 6,376]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

You forgot to mention that Lampard is seemingly playing Giroud to persuade him to stay in January, even at the cost of causing tactical imbalance to the side. 

I would have done the same. 

He is a good super sub. And good to have for another season. 

[Puliiszola 519]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

If a team is a one man team, then that kinda means the rest of the team is shit and it's also not sustainable in the long run. 

I feel any team in a transition will need a focal point and that one man to build around. And we ARE a team in a transition. 

I mean people want others to have patience with individuals like Kai and werner, yet are so bloody hard on FL. A system is made up of individuals performing to their best of the abilities. If those individuals are sub-par in doing some of the most basic things in football like passing and shielding, then the system and the team are bound to struggle. Which would ultimately either lead to a system failure like the previous 2 games or the team getting reliant on the most creative player like ziyech. 

[Jase 43,479]

9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I feel any team in a transition will need a focal point and that one man to build around. And we ARE a team in a transition. 

I mean people want others to have patience with individuals like Kai and werner, yet are so bloody hard on FL. A system is made up of individuals performing to their best of the abilities. If those individuals are sub-par in doing some of the most basic things in football like passing and shielding, then the system and the team are bound to struggle. Which would ultimately either lead to a system failure like the previous 2 games or the team getting reliant on the most creative player like ziyech. 

Equally, if the system in place isn't suitable best suited to the players available, then the team performance will also suffer. Werner, for example, isn't a winger but is asked to do the winger things and at Everton, we had no wingers whatsoever to play the 4-3-3 but we played the 4-3-3 anyway. 

[Puliiszola 519]

24 minutes ago, Jason said:

Equally, if the system in place isn't suitable best suited to the players available, then the team performance will also suffer. Werner, for example, isn't a winger but is asked to do the winger things and at Everton, we had no wingers whatsoever to play the 4-3-3 but we played the 4-3-3 anyway. 

We were 17 games unbeaten with almost all the games playing a formation of 4-3-3. 

I can bet that 95% of us in the match thread predicted/wanted the line up FL put up and were even happy with it.

As for werner, sadly I don't think puli and ziyech have been fit at the same time, meaning werner having to deputise as a winger for all of the season so far. 

 

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Puliiszola said:

We were 17 games unbeaten with almost all the games playing a formation of 4-3-3. 

I can bet that 95% of us in the match thread predicted/wanted the line up FL put up and were even happy with it.

We played 4-3-3 in those games because we at least had the wingers for it. Ziyech was available and even CHO was available. That wasn't the case at Everton, for example, and we ended up shifting Havertz there and he just looked lost. Then at Wolves, Pulisic was available but is only effective on the LW while Werner is not suited to either flanks. 

7 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

As for werner, sadly I don't think puli and ziyech have been fit at the same time, meaning werner having to deputise as a winger for all of the season so far. 

We had CHO and Ziyech available at the same time at some point but Lampard did zilch with it. Still decided to stick Werner out wide on the LW anyway. 

If Lampard really wants to persist with Werner out on the LW, then he needs to look at changing his role because it's clear as hell that he's not a winger. His confidence is probably already shot from being asked to do things that he isn't good at.

[MoroccanBlue 5,199]

53 minutes ago, Fernando said:

I would have done the same. 

He is a good super sub. And good to have for another season. 

Everton it was evident Giroud should've been brought off at half time and against Wolves he shouldn't of even started. 

[NikkiCFC 7,582]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

Havertz and Werner might need Chelsea formation change to bring best out them

https://theathletic.com/2264487/2020/12/16/werner-havertz-formation-chelsea/?source=emp_shared_article

 

 

I suggested that before Everton. Now with wingers back no point...

[NikkiCFC 7,582]

4 hours ago, killer1257 said:

 Man City would never won the title without KDB and Aguero two seasons ago

City won 98 points that season. KDB played 974 minutes in the PL of possible 3420. 

He played just 28.4% of games. And 3 of their 4 losses came with him in the squad.

Liverpool conceded more goals in 4 games with VVD this season than in all others without him this season in the PL and CL.

They beat Barca 4:0 with Origi, Shaqiri...

They have systems.

I do not understand this narrative that we suffer because of the injuries. Pulisic played yesterday. CHO is not even on the bench when everyone is fit.

And why all this talk like we are one man team with Ziyech.  All his goals came in 3 games against 3 shit teams.

 

[MoroccanBlue 5,199]

24 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I suggested that before Everton. Now with wingers back no point...

With wingers back it just makes Havertz redundant. Mount has eclipsed him when we all expected Havertz to hit the ground running. They can't even play together anymore considering Havertz looks bloody clueless with the ball. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

You cant use injuries as an excuse unless its on biblical proportions, the moment you are relying on 1 player you are fucked.

[NikkiCFC 7,582]

6 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

With wingers back it just makes Havertz redundant. Mount has eclipsed him when we all expected Havertz to hit the ground running. They can't even play together anymore considering Havertz looks bloody clueless with the ball. 

Kante, Havertz, Mount midfield will never work against top teams or decent because there is no balance.

[killer1257 3,282]

You cant use injuries as an excuse unless its on biblical proportions, the moment you are relying on 1 player you are fucked.

Man city rely on KDB and Aguero. They clearly suffer from not having Aguero, because Jesus is not on his level.
Spurs rely on Son and Kane. If Son and Kane did play as much together as Pulisic and Ziyech did for us (ziyech and pulisic played on match together in CL), I don't think they would be in their current position. Furthermore, Liverpool rely on Mane and Salah. If Mane and Salah played as much together as Ziyech and Pulisic did for us, I don't see them being competitive for the title.

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[MoroccanBlue 5,199]

10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Kante, Havertz, Mount midfield will never work against top teams or decent because there is no balance.

Agreed but its effective against the bottom half in closing games out. Now, it looks to be shit when Havertz virtually offers nothing. 

 

 

[Fernando 6,376]

You guys need to also understand that this season is unique and expect a lot of up and down. 

Look at Southampton being first at the moment. A team that got beat badly last season....

As a whole to me Lampard and Chelsea are fine. 2 loss is not going to change my mind as I judge based on results of months, progress in the area of youth and building for the future. 

Lampard is doing everything good and I'm sure the board see it as well. This was always a 3 year project. Lampard and company has made the right buys in this transfer window, now to progress and continue with the youth and the right buys in the next transfer window.