Jorginho

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

3 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista. 

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

So you think Pep was stupid for wanting to buy Jorginho? 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

You are forgetting or missing another very important point here - Man City and Liverpool are also great at pressing the opposition, recovering the ball and/or making tactical fouls. Their defensive solidity - in Man City's case, at their peak - did not happen because of only one or two players. It is also a team effort. How many times, for instance, have we seen Man City stop counter attacks or attacks before they really got going by fouling the opposition? Our team aren't doing that and heck, our pressing is also all over the place. There is also the fact that 3/4 of the team are usually ahead of the ball whenever we lose it, causing us to be so vulnerable defensively.

Moreover, players like Fernandinho also have a good passing ability on top of their defensive capabilities. You don't play for a top quality side if you're only good at doing the defensive side of things but hopeless in passing and/or constructing moves. Can Kante do both sides of that well? Not from what we have seen. He doesn't take any risks with his passing (e.g passing forward in any sense!), constantly passes backwards and sideways, doesn't offer himself as a passing option whenever our CBs have the ball and the fact that some teams have not even bothered pressing him when he's on the ball in the DM role says a lot. 

This is ironic considering only 3-4 months ago, we were praising Gilmour to the heavens for shining in the regista role. 

I praised Gilmour because he can do what Jorginho does but can also run, cover spaces, play far more forward passes instead of just keeping tempo. We're not playing slow pondering Italian football, this is a fast paced league, Jorginho doesn't just fit. Gilmour may not be Kante but like I always said, there's no point keeping a Jorginho when Gilmour is available.

About Kantes passing, Kante's passing is better than Casemiros so that is not the most important part of a DM in this system. The important aspect is it allows us to play with two attacking midfielders which will make the whole team far more attacking as a whole. The attacking football we all want to see cannot happen if we have to protect the DM. Look at ManUtd, Pogba and Fernandes can only work together because Matic is sitting behind them protecting their advance. The system allows more attacking players and eventually more goals.

The pressing that you spoke about that ManCity does to protect the defence, used to be done by us at the beginning of the season. But if you remember we usually collapsed in the second half. That was probably down to inexperience from Lampard but he's learning and can easily adjust it to do the pressing in small 10-15 mins spells.

The bottom line is Jorginho as DM cannot protect ziyech, Havertz and other attacking players we are planning to add to our team. And it is better to emulate teams playing with a winning system instead of forcing the Jorginho regista system down our throats.

Sent from my SM-A307FN using Tapatalk
 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

So you think Pep was stupid for wanting to buy Jorginho? 

Like I said, Pep started tinkering and got Rodri which has ruined his system and cost him even competing for the league. Fernandinho making all those tackles and fouls was crucial in stopping counterattacks for his system.

Sent from my SM-A307FN using Tapatalk

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

42 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

WH was one goal from set piece. But since someone mentioned numbers with and without Jorginho in the squad I will do the same with Kante.

Without Kante:

11 wins 2 draws 1 loss

With Kante:

8 wins 4 draws 10 losses

So how the hell is Kante giving us such a good protection if he was part of 10 losses this season from 11?!

 

 

[SUNZ 155]

For Jorginho to make up for his physical limitations (he doesn't have a single redeemable physical quality, he is by far the weakest & slowest player I have ever seen) he would need to be a Xavi / Fabregas level passer. And the reality is he isn't anywhere close to that. He is a bad passer of the ball because he is so weak he can barely generate any power; his most adventurous pass is the first time, hit and hope over the top that is intercepted 99% of the time.

Whether Pep wanted him or not means nothing. Pep has signed more than his fair share of duds and Jorginho simply would have been another one.

He can't even take the ball under pressure and/or turn with the ball LOL. What a nightmare player.

[Puliiszola 519]

1 minute ago, NikkiCFC said:

WH was one goal from set piece. But since someone mentioned numbers with and without Jorginho in the squad I will do the same with Kante.

Without Kante:

11 wins 2 draws 1 loss

With Kante:

8 wins 4 draws 10 losses

So how the hell is Kante giving us such a good protection if he was part of 10 losses this season from 11?!

 

 

How many of those had Kante as a DM? As compared to jorginho. Do you have the figures for those?

Because For jorginho it is. 24 starts, 9 losses. So out of 11 total losses we have a union of atleast 9 losses.

The whole point is if it should be Kante or Jorginho as a DM, so we have to look at those players in those positions. 

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Go ahead, I would love an analysis of each of our goals that way to be proven wrong. Honestly. Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams.

So because we got nullified by teams, it's all Jorginho's fault? Nothing to do with say Willian or Barkley being braindead in the attacking third?

Despite being supposedly nullified, we have had 215 shots on target in the Premier League this season, behind only Liverpool and Man City. So is that due to poor finishing or is it because of Jorginho's fault?

15 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

COuld we have set up in that way with jorginho? Remembver this was the same team who got embarassed 6-0 by city.

Same team that also had Kante in it but when you lose 6-0, it's dumb to blame even one player only when the whole team was just shit that day.

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Who is saying kante does not do that. But I dont praise him for it,  or say that he should be in the team because he can make a simple sideways or backwards pass of 5 metres. That is the point. What jorginho brings to the team can be replaced by Kante, what kante brings to the team as a DM, cant be replaced even a bit by jorginho.

Isn't this contradicting? Yes, Kante is better defensively than Jorginho but if Jorginho is getting slammed for passing sideways or backwards, then why Kante isn't getting slammed for doing the same? No one is asking Kante to start playing Fabregas-esque forward passes but he rarely even makes a simple 5-yard forward pass, takes risk. And the problem with this whole passing sideways and backwards is it makes the team predictable and can be contained easily.

21 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Or maybe, teams did not press kante because they are aware of his busting runs and decent ball retention. WHere as when jorginho plays, he is continously targetted by opposition teams for his slow recovery, 0 chance of going past a player and possession vulnerability. Or are you trying to say that Jorginho is pressed because teams fear he will play that Cesc-esque pass from the deep. because that would call for a LOL

Kante makes his busting runs and then what? Plays defence splitting passes? Turns into Messi and starts dribbling past people consistently? Since you said Kante is there for defensive purposes, to allow the two No.8s to do damage, then perhaps that is why teams don't bother pressing him because he doesn't do any useful offensively. Teams rather sit off him and focus on nullifying our attacking threats further forward.

All in all, I could care less about Jorginho or Kante at this point but if we are going to ahead with this more defensive midfielder player in front of the back 4 in the long term, then we better also find one who is good with their passing - essentially a hybrid of the two. There is too much of a trade-off between our midfielders we have right now. 

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

In the end it all depends on the system we want to play. Some are more suitable for Jorginho, some for Kante...

But Jorginho was part and maybe most important player in our best part of the season. Our winning run in Sep-Oct. Kante was missing in majority of games in this period. So it was Jorgi-Kova-Mount.

Brighton, Newcastle home, Lille, Ajax, Burnley, Southampton, Watford away... 7 great wins.

For example I remember Southampton away 1:4 game where Jorginho showed how important he can be.

If you look closely you will see that he played big part in all 4 goals without making a goal or assist.

He won the ball for the 1st goal before counter attack, pass to Willian for the 2nd goal, great pass to Alonso for the 3rd goal and in the end dictating tempo and more good passes before 4th goal.

Also goal line clearance after Tomori big mistake. He showed all the qualities in this game. And assist of the season against Watford away...

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

22 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

I praised Gilmour because he can do what Jorginho does but can also run, cover spaces, play far more forward passes instead of just keeping tempo. We're not playing slow pondering Italian football, this is a fast paced league, Jorginho doesn't just fit. Gilmour may not be Kante but like I always said, there's no point keeping a Jorginho when Gilmour is available.

But as we have seen since the restart, Gilmour is not quite ready yet and given he will be out for months and won't be back until October, he is going to need time to get back into full rhythm. 

23 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

About Kantes passing, Kante's passing is better than Casemiros so that is not the most important part of a DM in this system. The important aspect is it allows us to play with two attacking midfielders which will make the whole team far more attacking as a whole. The attacking football we all want to see cannot happen if we have to protect the DM. Look at ManUtd, Pogba and Fernandes can only work together because Matic is sitting behind them protecting their advance. The system allows more attacking players and eventually more goals.

But Real Madrid are not an offensive or attack-minded side under Zidane, are they?

At Man United, yes, Matic is there to protect the defence but I don't think he shies away from passing forward either. Same thing can't be said about Kante.

What about City? What about Liverpool? Don't you think Fernandinho and Fabinho have better passing range than Kante? We can go even go back further and look at Guardiola's Barcelona and remember that he had Busquets as the one sitting in front of the back 4. He is not a pure midfield destroyer but capable of making those defensive plays and also helping to construct moves. 

This isn't the mid-2000s anymore. If we are gonna play a more defensive minded midfielder in front of the back 4, fine. But that person better also be sound technically, has good passing range and capable of constructing moves in some form at the very least. Otherwise, we would just become very predictable and easy to stop. 

28 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

The pressing that you spoke about that ManCity does to protect the defence, used to be done by us at the beginning of the season. But if you remember we usually collapsed in the second half. That was probably down to inexperience from Lampard but he's learning and can easily adjust it to do the pressing in small 10-15 mins spells.

And we still look defensively vulnerable, no? 

If we can't press for the entire game, that is fine but then learn from Man City by committing tactical fouls if needed or basically, just foul players if/when needed. We have been far too nice in allowing attacks to get ahead of steam because our players chicken out of committing fouls. Kante alone can't stop this all. 

33 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

The bottom line is Jorginho as DM cannot protect ziyech, Havertz and other attacking players we are planning to add to our team. And it is better to emulate teams playing with a winning system instead of forcing the Jorginho regista system down our throats.

And you think Kante can succeed as the DM because...? He may be better defensively than Jorginho but that doesn't mean he is suited to that lone role. As Tomo and some others have mentioned before, Kante is someone who proactively seeks out danger and "destroy". He is not someone who is disciplined and will sit in front of the back 4 and mop up whatever comes his way. Last thing we need is the lone DM to go move about and leave his space to be exploited! Moreover, Kante's success in his defensive role in the past has been when he played in a two-man defensive midfield. There was Drinkwater at Leicester and then Matic. Conte tried playing Kante in the lone DM role and it culminated in the 3-0 thrashing at Arsenal and the formation change.

[Puliiszola 519]

29 minutes ago, Jason said:

So because we got nullified by teams, it's all Jorginho's fault? Nothing to do with say Willian or Barkley being braindead in the attacking third?

Despite being supposedly nullified, we have had 215 shots on target in the Premier League this season, behind only Liverpool and Man City. So is that due to poor finishing or is it because of Jorginho's fault?

Same team that also had Kante in it but when you lose 6-0, it's dumb to blame even one player only when the whole team was just shit that day. 

Understand the dynamics of playing Kante as a DM and jorginho as a DM. you cant play Kante as a Striker and then say, look we are not scoring goals. The roles were/are different. Kante as a DM gives a defensive surety. No one is blaming ÖNLY jorginho. Have you even been reading what I and others have been writing. About the "poor back 5", "making us WEAKER defensively" etc etc. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. But for me DM, is the most important position on the field. A good DM, can single handedly change the way the game will be played by both teams. For us, when its jorginho as compared to Kante, cant see an upside. 

 

As for the nullified, again please read what is wriiten and understand the context. This was my exact comment:

"Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams."  Dont know how or why you got the idea that i am talking about attack when its all about the defence, that he might not be directly in mistake for the goals, but the way teams nullify his presence as a DM. 

[Jase 43,479]

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Understand the dynamics of playing Kante as a DM and jorginho as a DM. you cant play Kante as a Striker and then say, look we are not scoring goals. The roles were/are different. Kante as a DM gives a defensive surety. No one is blaming ÖNLY jorginho. Have you even been reading what I and others have been writing. About the "poor back 5", "making us WEAKER defensively" etc etc. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. But for me DM, is the most important position on the field. A good DM, can single handedly change the way the game will be played by both teams. For us, when its jorginho as compared to Kante, cant see an upside. 

 

As for the nullified, again please read what is wriiten and understand the context. This was my exact comment:

"Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams."  Dont know how or why you got the idea that i am talking about attack when its all about the defence, that he might not be directly in mistake for the goals, but the way teams nullify his presence as a DM. 

If you think we are safer defensively with Kante there, then good for you. 

Agree to disagree.

[Puliiszola 519]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

If you think we are safer defensively with Kante there, then good for you. 

Agree to disagree.

Sure agree to disagree. 

But just to point out, you have not given a single argument regarding why we are not. 

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, Puliiszola said:

But just to point out, you have not given a single argument regarding why we are not. 

Because I don't think we are defensively safer or even just safe in general?

[Puliiszola 519]

17 minutes ago, Jason said:

Because I don't think we are defensively safer or even just safe in general?

How? 

Those 4 pl games after restart, you seriously think was similar defensively to the rest of the season, forget goal conceded, or jorginho or kante. But those 4 games, how many chances did we concede from open play?

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Puliiszola said:

How? 

Those 4 pl games after restart, you seriously think was similar defensively to the rest of the season, forget goal conceded, or jorginho or kante. But those 4 games, how many chances did we concede from open play?

Because we still look defensively vulnerable? The Villa game, the West Ham game. Would even include the FA Cup game at Leicester. 

[Puliiszola 519]

Just now, Jason said:

Because we still look defensively vulnerable? The Villa game, the West Ham game. Would even include the FA Cup game at Leicester. 

I guess there is a massive difference in our povs.

Because I can't seem to remember how we kooked defensively vulnerable against villa. 

As for whu, hardly had a sniff till ht, then concede for a set piece. Then over commit and get countered. 

I mean just look at those 15 mins at palace vs those 4 games and we should know the difference. But okay, I feel there is just too big a difference in how we are viewing things, so no amount of back and forth is going to help anybody. 

 

I am just happy that SFL had kante and Gilmour ahead of jorginho and that there are significant rumors of him leaving. Think he is perfect for serie a, but has been totally exposed in the PL

 

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Puliiszola said:

I guess there is a massive difference in our povs.

Because I can't seem to remember how we kooked defensively vulnerable against villa. 

As for whu, hardly had a sniff till ht, then concede for a set piece. Then over commit and get countered. 

I mean just look at those 15 mins at palace vs those 4 games and we should know the difference. But okay, I feel there is just too big a difference in how we are viewing things, so no amount of back and forth is going to help anybody. 

That first half at Leicester was even worse than the closing stages at Palace.

Anyway, AGREE TO DISAGREE. 

2 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

that there are significant rumors of him leaving.

Significant rumors? All I've seen is some Italian sources saying it but nothing concrete and nothing concrete from the English media - e.g. Matt Law - either. Plus, if Sarri gets sacked by Juventus, that link then there goes out of the window.

[Puliiszola 519]

26 minutes ago, Jason said:

That first half at Leicester was even worse than the closing stages at Palace.

Anyway, AGREE TO DISAGREE. 

Significant rumors? All I've seen is some Italian sources saying it but nothing concrete and nothing concrete from the English media - e.g. Matt Law - either. Plus, if Sarri gets sacked by Juventus, that link then there goes out of the window.

That Leicester game, half the team seemed to be on the beach. 

 

You can take it that way. If I was a betting man, I would wager jorginho not being here at the start of next season rather than being here. And that too with some confidence.