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5. Jorginho


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1 hour ago, kellzfresh said:

I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

This. 

Along with you can't realistically expect to change 5 at the back to compensate the weakness of the one ahead of them.

The cons far outweigh the cons of jorginho. If like Pirlo he had marchisio and Asamoah as well as vidal doing his dirty work for him, then it would have made sense. But we have mount, rlc, kai, kova. We need a proper DM to get the best out of their skills of creativity and ball carrying without always looking behind their shoulders about jorginho

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Part of me desperately want to see the people suffer a meltdown over Jorginho had he gone to Man City and done well under Guardiola. Those same fellas who are criticizing now would be the same ones ba

I'm fuckin ashamed at peeps booing Jorgi. Call themselves supporters. Why the fuck does he get singled out when all the other cunts play shit useless too? Such selective memories of some! I'm gon

He’s made the most forward passes in the PL so this is rubbish. Open up your mind, expand your football knowledge. Learn the regista role and what it’s meant to do, it’s function in a team. 

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3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lampard kept playing because we literally did not have players to fill in. Kante kept getting injured, rlc was injured. Mount had to play winger as CHO was injured, puli needed time to settle in. We literally did not have mids. We were good from August to Oct. But that's the point, once the teams figured us and jorginho out, it was not only easy to stop us, but counter the shit out of us. Jorginho was/is targetted by most teams.

That is not quite true. Yes, Kante missed a lot of games through injury earlier this season but when he did play, Jorginho was still starting games and playing in front of the back 4.

Mount only played a few games in the LW. Pedro started a couple of games earlier this season and IIRC, CHO was already back fit in September. 

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Why do you think this is the only article out there? These articles about jorginho's flaws have been coming out one after another since his sarri days. 

No, I am aware of other articles out there but if you don't know anything about football and you read that article, you would think Jorginho is the worst player on the planet judging by skewed that piece is. 

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Obviously, it's not "only" his fault. But like you said, "he is an important cog" for our beautiful football, similarly he is an important cog of our defensive prowess. As for pros and cons, what's the point of a list when people want to absolve a defensive midfielder for all his defensive frailities because "he can keep the ball ticking". He makes our already poor defense look way worse. As for attack, can't score, can't assist, hell does not even have a great passing range. I mean what are the pros that I supposed to be talking about here? 

And has Kante playing there made us better? He doesn't have a good passing range and doesn't take any risks with his passing either, constantly passing backwards or sideways (sounds familiar) AND we are still conceding dumb goals or still looking defensively vulnerable even with him in the position. 

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2 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

You are forgetting or missing another very important point here - Man City and Liverpool are also great at pressing the opposition, recovering the ball and/or making tactical fouls. Their defensive solidity - in Man City's case, at their peak - did not happen because of only one or two players. It is also a team effort. How many times, for instance, have we seen Man City stop counter attacks or attacks before they really got going by fouling the opposition? Our team aren't doing that and heck, our pressing is also all over the place. There is also the fact that 3/4 of the team are usually ahead of the ball whenever we lose it, causing us to be so vulnerable defensively.

Moreover, players like Fernandinho also have a good passing ability on top of their defensive capabilities. You don't play for a top quality side if you're only good at doing the defensive side of things but hopeless in passing and/or constructing moves. Can Kante do both sides of that well? Not from what we have seen. He doesn't take any risks with his passing (e.g passing forward in any sense!), constantly passes backwards and sideways, doesn't offer himself as a passing option whenever our CBs have the ball and the fact that some teams have not even bothered pressing him when he's on the ball in the DM role says a lot. 

3 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

This is ironic considering only 3-4 months ago, we were praising Gilmour to the heavens for shining in the regista role. 

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11 minutes ago, Jason said:

has Kante playing there made us better? He doesn't have a good passing range and doesn't take any risks with his passing either, constantly passing backwards or sideways (sounds familiar) AND we are still conceding dumb goals or still looking defensively vulnerable even with him in the position. 

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

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4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

If we are gonna look at the goals conceded that way, then am sure one could look through the earlier ones with Jorginho and see not all the goals conceded were his fault.

The City game is hard to judge because we set up defensively to play on the counter attack. Even Christensen and Rudiger looked great that night!

7 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

Alternatively, it could have been a comfortable win at Palace had somebody stopped Zaha before he shot or Kepa saved it and Christensen not being Christensen for their second goal and those were before Jorginho even came on. If we had not make those mistakes, that last crazy 5 minutes wouldn't have happened.

9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

And Kante do not play between himself and the back 4? He doesn't pass sideways or backwards? 

We don't know for sure if Lampard wants someone in that role purely for defensive purposes only in the long term. Am sure it wouldn't have escaped his attention that teams did not even bother pressing Kante much when we have the ball because we all know he doesn't have the capability to do much with it offensively. 

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6 minutes ago, Jason said:

If we are gonna look at the goals conceded that way, then am sure one could look through the earlier ones with Jorginho and see not all the goals conceded were his fault.

The City game is hard to judge because we set up defensively to play on the counter attack. Even Christensen and Rudiger looked great that night!

Alternatively, it could have been a comfortable win at Palace had somebody stopped Zaha before he shot or Kepa saved it and Christensen not being Christensen for their second goal and those were before Jorginho even came on. If we had not make those mistakes, that last crazy 5 minutes wouldn't have happened.

And Kante do not play between himself and the back 4? He doesn't pass sideways or backwards? 

We don't know for sure if Lampard wants someone in that role purely for defensive purposes only in the long term. Am sure it wouldn't have escaped his attention that teams did not even bother pressing Kante much when we have the ball because we all know he doesn't have the capability to do much with it offensively. 

Go ahead, I would love an analysis of each of our goals that way to be proven wrong. Honestly. Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams.

COuld we have set up in that way with jorginho? Remembver this was the same team who got embarassed 6-0 by city.

Seriously? Jorginho would have made no difference for the zaha goal because he would/should have been where gilmour was. James lost the ball at half way line and he would have been going with the winger. It was a banger/GK mistake. There are some goals which are unstoppable (like KDB's), no amount of assigning blame would siffice. And irrespective of the goal, its the midfield "control" that jorginho brings to the team, right? Even a team like palace bossed us with him on the pitch and carved us open 2/3 times.

Who is saying kante does not do that. But I dont praise him for it,  or say that he should be in the team because he can make a simple sideways or backwards pass of 5 metres. That is the point. What jorginho brings to the team can be replaced by Kante, what kante brings to the team as a DM, cant be replaced even a bit by jorginho.

Or maybe, teams did not press kante because they are aware of his busting runs and decent ball retention. WHere as when jorginho plays, he is continously targetted by opposition teams for his slow recovery, 0 chance of going past a player and possession vulnerability. Or are you trying to say that Jorginho is pressed because teams fear he will play that Cesc-esque pass from the deep. because that would call for a LOL

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3 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

So you think Pep was stupid for wanting to buy Jorginho? 

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6 hours ago, Jason said:

You are forgetting or missing another very important point here - Man City and Liverpool are also great at pressing the opposition, recovering the ball and/or making tactical fouls. Their defensive solidity - in Man City's case, at their peak - did not happen because of only one or two players. It is also a team effort. How many times, for instance, have we seen Man City stop counter attacks or attacks before they really got going by fouling the opposition? Our team aren't doing that and heck, our pressing is also all over the place. There is also the fact that 3/4 of the team are usually ahead of the ball whenever we lose it, causing us to be so vulnerable defensively.

Moreover, players like Fernandinho also have a good passing ability on top of their defensive capabilities. You don't play for a top quality side if you're only good at doing the defensive side of things but hopeless in passing and/or constructing moves. Can Kante do both sides of that well? Not from what we have seen. He doesn't take any risks with his passing (e.g passing forward in any sense!), constantly passes backwards and sideways, doesn't offer himself as a passing option whenever our CBs have the ball and the fact that some teams have not even bothered pressing him when he's on the ball in the DM role says a lot. 

This is ironic considering only 3-4 months ago, we were praising Gilmour to the heavens for shining in the regista role. 

I praised Gilmour because he can do what Jorginho does but can also run, cover spaces, play far more forward passes instead of just keeping tempo. We're not playing slow pondering Italian football, this is a fast paced league, Jorginho doesn't just fit. Gilmour may not be Kante but like I always said, there's no point keeping a Jorginho when Gilmour is available.

About Kantes passing, Kante's passing is better than Casemiros so that is not the most important part of a DM in this system. The important aspect is it allows us to play with two attacking midfielders which will make the whole team far more attacking as a whole. The attacking football we all want to see cannot happen if we have to protect the DM. Look at ManUtd, Pogba and Fernandes can only work together because Matic is sitting behind them protecting their advance. The system allows more attacking players and eventually more goals.

The pressing that you spoke about that ManCity does to protect the defence, used to be done by us at the beginning of the season. But if you remember we usually collapsed in the second half. That was probably down to inexperience from Lampard but he's learning and can easily adjust it to do the pressing in small 10-15 mins spells.

The bottom line is Jorginho as DM cannot protect ziyech, Havertz and other attacking players we are planning to add to our team. And it is better to emulate teams playing with a winning system instead of forcing the Jorginho regista system down our throats.

Sent from my SM-A307FN using Tapatalk
 

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So you think Pep was stupid for wanting to buy Jorginho? 
Like I said, Pep started tinkering and got Rodri which has ruined his system and cost him even competing for the league. Fernandinho making all those tackles and fouls was crucial in stopping counterattacks for his system.

Sent from my SM-A307FN using Tapatalk

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42 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

WH was one goal from set piece. But since someone mentioned numbers with and without Jorginho in the squad I will do the same with Kante.

Without Kante:

11 wins 2 draws 1 loss

With Kante:

8 wins 4 draws 10 losses

So how the hell is Kante giving us such a good protection if he was part of 10 losses this season from 11?!

 

 

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For Jorginho to make up for his physical limitations (he doesn't have a single redeemable physical quality, he is by far the weakest & slowest player I have ever seen) he would need to be a Xavi / Fabregas level passer. And the reality is he isn't anywhere close to that. He is a bad passer of the ball because he is so weak he can barely generate any power; his most adventurous pass is the first time, hit and hope over the top that is intercepted 99% of the time.

Whether Pep wanted him or not means nothing. Pep has signed more than his fair share of duds and Jorginho simply would have been another one.

He can't even take the ball under pressure and/or turn with the ball LOL. What a nightmare player.

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1 minute ago, NikkiCFC said:

WH was one goal from set piece. But since someone mentioned numbers with and without Jorginho in the squad I will do the same with Kante.

Without Kante:

11 wins 2 draws 1 loss

With Kante:

8 wins 4 draws 10 losses

So how the hell is Kante giving us such a good protection if he was part of 10 losses this season from 11?!

 

 

How many of those had Kante as a DM? As compared to jorginho. Do you have the figures for those?

Because For jorginho it is. 24 starts, 9 losses. So out of 11 total losses we have a union of atleast 9 losses.

The whole point is if it should be Kante or Jorginho as a DM, so we have to look at those players in those positions. 

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5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Go ahead, I would love an analysis of each of our goals that way to be proven wrong. Honestly. Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams.

So because we got nullified by teams, it's all Jorginho's fault? Nothing to do with say Willian or Barkley being braindead in the attacking third?

Despite being supposedly nullified, we have had 215 shots on target in the Premier League this season, behind only Liverpool and Man City. So is that due to poor finishing or is it because of Jorginho's fault?

15 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

COuld we have set up in that way with jorginho? Remembver this was the same team who got embarassed 6-0 by city.

Same team that also had Kante in it but when you lose 6-0, it's dumb to blame even one player only when the whole team was just shit that day.

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Who is saying kante does not do that. But I dont praise him for it,  or say that he should be in the team because he can make a simple sideways or backwards pass of 5 metres. That is the point. What jorginho brings to the team can be replaced by Kante, what kante brings to the team as a DM, cant be replaced even a bit by jorginho.

Isn't this contradicting? Yes, Kante is better defensively than Jorginho but if Jorginho is getting slammed for passing sideways or backwards, then why Kante isn't getting slammed for doing the same? No one is asking Kante to start playing Fabregas-esque forward passes but he rarely even makes a simple 5-yard forward pass, takes risk. And the problem with this whole passing sideways and backwards is it makes the team predictable and can be contained easily.

21 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Or maybe, teams did not press kante because they are aware of his busting runs and decent ball retention. WHere as when jorginho plays, he is continously targetted by opposition teams for his slow recovery, 0 chance of going past a player and possession vulnerability. Or are you trying to say that Jorginho is pressed because teams fear he will play that Cesc-esque pass from the deep. because that would call for a LOL

Kante makes his busting runs and then what? Plays defence splitting passes? Turns into Messi and starts dribbling past people consistently? Since you said Kante is there for defensive purposes, to allow the two No.8s to do damage, then perhaps that is why teams don't bother pressing him because he doesn't do any useful offensively. Teams rather sit off him and focus on nullifying our attacking threats further forward.

All in all, I could care less about Jorginho or Kante at this point but if we are going to ahead with this more defensive midfielder player in front of the back 4 in the long term, then we better also find one who is good with their passing - essentially a hybrid of the two. There is too much of a trade-off between our midfielders we have right now. 

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In the end it all depends on the system we want to play. Some are more suitable for Jorginho, some for Kante...

But Jorginho was part and maybe most important player in our best part of the season. Our winning run in Sep-Oct. Kante was missing in majority of games in this period. So it was Jorgi-Kova-Mount.

Brighton, Newcastle home, Lille, Ajax, Burnley, Southampton, Watford away... 7 great wins.

For example I remember Southampton away 1:4 game where Jorginho showed how important he can be.

If you look closely you will see that he played big part in all 4 goals without making a goal or assist.

He won the ball for the 1st goal before counter attack, pass to Willian for the 2nd goal, great pass to Alonso for the 3rd goal and in the end dictating tempo and more good passes before 4th goal.

Also goal line clearance after Tomori big mistake. He showed all the qualities in this game. And assist of the season against Watford away...

 

 

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22 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

I praised Gilmour because he can do what Jorginho does but can also run, cover spaces, play far more forward passes instead of just keeping tempo. We're not playing slow pondering Italian football, this is a fast paced league, Jorginho doesn't just fit. Gilmour may not be Kante but like I always said, there's no point keeping a Jorginho when Gilmour is available.

But as we have seen since the restart, Gilmour is not quite ready yet and given he will be out for months and won't be back until October, he is going to need time to get back into full rhythm. 

23 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

About Kantes passing, Kante's passing is better than Casemiros so that is not the most important part of a DM in this system. The important aspect is it allows us to play with two attacking midfielders which will make the whole team far more attacking as a whole. The attacking football we all want to see cannot happen if we have to protect the DM. Look at ManUtd, Pogba and Fernandes can only work together because Matic is sitting behind them protecting their advance. The system allows more attacking players and eventually more goals.

But Real Madrid are not an offensive or attack-minded side under Zidane, are they?

At Man United, yes, Matic is there to protect the defence but I don't think he shies away from passing forward either. Same thing can't be said about Kante.

What about City? What about Liverpool? Don't you think Fernandinho and Fabinho have better passing range than Kante? We can go even go back further and look at Guardiola's Barcelona and remember that he had Busquets as the one sitting in front of the back 4. He is not a pure midfield destroyer but capable of making those defensive plays and also helping to construct moves. 

This isn't the mid-2000s anymore. If we are gonna play a more defensive minded midfielder in front of the back 4, fine. But that person better also be sound technically, has good passing range and capable of constructing moves in some form at the very least. Otherwise, we would just become very predictable and easy to stop. 

28 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

The pressing that you spoke about that ManCity does to protect the defence, used to be done by us at the beginning of the season. But if you remember we usually collapsed in the second half. That was probably down to inexperience from Lampard but he's learning and can easily adjust it to do the pressing in small 10-15 mins spells.

And we still look defensively vulnerable, no? 

If we can't press for the entire game, that is fine but then learn from Man City by committing tactical fouls if needed or basically, just foul players if/when needed. We have been far too nice in allowing attacks to get ahead of steam because our players chicken out of committing fouls. Kante alone can't stop this all. 

33 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

The bottom line is Jorginho as DM cannot protect ziyech, Havertz and other attacking players we are planning to add to our team. And it is better to emulate teams playing with a winning system instead of forcing the Jorginho regista system down our throats.

And you think Kante can succeed as the DM because...? He may be better defensively than Jorginho but that doesn't mean he is suited to that lone role. As Tomo and some others have mentioned before, Kante is someone who proactively seeks out danger and "destroy". He is not someone who is disciplined and will sit in front of the back 4 and mop up whatever comes his way. Last thing we need is the lone DM to go move about and leave his space to be exploited! Moreover, Kante's success in his defensive role in the past has been when he played in a two-man defensive midfield. There was Drinkwater at Leicester and then Matic. Conte tried playing Kante in the lone DM role and it culminated in the 3-0 thrashing at Arsenal and the formation change.

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29 minutes ago, Jason said:

So because we got nullified by teams, it's all Jorginho's fault? Nothing to do with say Willian or Barkley being braindead in the attacking third?

Despite being supposedly nullified, we have had 215 shots on target in the Premier League this season, behind only Liverpool and Man City. So is that due to poor finishing or is it because of Jorginho's fault?

Same team that also had Kante in it but when you lose 6-0, it's dumb to blame even one player only when the whole team was just shit that day. 

Understand the dynamics of playing Kante as a DM and jorginho as a DM. you cant play Kante as a Striker and then say, look we are not scoring goals. The roles were/are different. Kante as a DM gives a defensive surety. No one is blaming ÖNLY jorginho. Have you even been reading what I and others have been writing. About the "poor back 5", "making us WEAKER defensively" etc etc. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. But for me DM, is the most important position on the field. A good DM, can single handedly change the way the game will be played by both teams. For us, when its jorginho as compared to Kante, cant see an upside. 

 

As for the nullified, again please read what is wriiten and understand the context. This was my exact comment:

"Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams."  Dont know how or why you got the idea that i am talking about attack when its all about the defence, that he might not be directly in mistake for the goals, but the way teams nullify his presence as a DM. 

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16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Understand the dynamics of playing Kante as a DM and jorginho as a DM. you cant play Kante as a Striker and then say, look we are not scoring goals. The roles were/are different. Kante as a DM gives a defensive surety. No one is blaming ÖNLY jorginho. Have you even been reading what I and others have been writing. About the "poor back 5", "making us WEAKER defensively" etc etc. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. But for me DM, is the most important position on the field. A good DM, can single handedly change the way the game will be played by both teams. For us, when its jorginho as compared to Kante, cant see an upside. 

 

As for the nullified, again please read what is wriiten and understand the context. This was my exact comment:

"Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams."  Dont know how or why you got the idea that i am talking about attack when its all about the defence, that he might not be directly in mistake for the goals, but the way teams nullify his presence as a DM. 

If you think we are safer defensively with Kante there, then good for you. 

Agree to disagree.

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7 minutes ago, Jason said:

If you think we are safer defensively with Kante there, then good for you. 

Agree to disagree.

Sure agree to disagree. 

But just to point out, you have not given a single argument regarding why we are not. 

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