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19. Mason Mount


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His passion for the club is needed on the pitch. Sometimes you have that one average player that bleeds blue and inspires the rest of the team with his sheer effort and desire. Liverpool has Henderson for this, Manutd had Anderson, they always play even though they are average. We just have to improve other areas of the pitch technically.

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It is 2020 and people still think Barkley will become good...

Scored a hattrick tonight and made an assist for Vitesse in their Europa League playoff match against Ado Den Haag. What a season this lad is having. I think that is double figures for both goals and

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17 hours ago, Jason said:

Seriously? Now Mount gets praised for basically being non-injury prone player? You said it as if Pulisic wanted to be an injury prone player or that he intentionally gets injured all the time. 

Its not Pulisic's fault obviously, nor was it the fault of quality players like Ledley King or Jack Wilshere.

I am saying that Chelsea can thank their stars that Mount has remarkable endurance. He can play full matches back to back and not show much strain.

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4 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Its not Pulisic's fault obviously, nor was it the fault of quality players like Ledley King or Jack Wilshere.

I am saying that Chelsea can thank their stars that Mount has remarkable endurance. He can play full matches back to back and not show much strain.

Even then, is Mount the only one at the club who has endurance, who can play back to back matches? Let's not also forget that Mount was overplayed last season and he ran out of steam in the end. Everyone has their limit.

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6 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

His passion for the club is needed on the pitch. Sometimes you have that one average player that bleeds blue and inspires the rest of the team with his sheer effort and desire. Liverpool has Henderson for this, Manutd had Anderson, they always play even though they are average. We just have to improve other areas of the pitch technically.

It seems to me that by pinpointing very specific players from top clubs at that (except that lazy fuck Anderson :) ), and very unique in their leadership role, they'd be by definition not average? It's like saying Kante was "just" a workhorse at Leicester.

And honestly, think he's pretty good skill wise: he's got quick feet, can work in tight spaces, and scores regularly. underrated.

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9 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

And honestly, think he's pretty good skill wise: he's got quick feet, can work in tight spaces, and scores regularly. underrated.

Did you say Mount scores regularly🤨

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Since Mount will miss the 2nd leg against Atletico, did a little digging into the numbers...

When Mount STARTS:
P 74
W 42
D 12
L 20
56% win rate

When Mount DOESN'T START (including sub appearances, no sub appearances):
P 18
W 9
D 5
L 4
50% win rate

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

Since Mount will miss the 2nd leg against Atletico, did a little digging into the numbers...

When Mount STARTS:
P 74
W 42
D 12
L 20
56% win rate

When Mount DOESN'T START (including sub appearances, no sub appearances):
P 18
W 9
D 5
L 4
50% win rate

Thing is we can all pick statistics to use as we wish. First, your one that you have lifted is slightly disproportionate as you've 74 games v 18 games which is over a 4x difference. Second, it can be questioned if the quality of the opposition comparable? I ask as if his games missing are primarily against bottom half PL clubs, League Cup games and 3rd/4th seed European teams in the group stage, then that 50% win rate quickly looks horrific. 

Another thing to consider is what players where doing at a comparable siutations/age to Mount. Here is a couple: 

SFL 

01/02 (First season at Chelsea - age 23) - Games 53 - Goals 7 - Assists 2

02/03 - Age 24 - Games 48 - Goals 8 - Assists 5 

Mount 

19/20 (age 20/21 - First season at Chelsea) - Games 53 - Goals 8 - Assists 6

20/21 (age 21/22) - Games 38 (season on going) - Goals 5 - Assists 6

Grealish (as he seems to be a player everyone wants to compare Mount too) 

17/18 (Age 20/21 - Championship) - Games 34 - Goals 3 - Assists 8

18/19 (Age 21/22 - Championship) - Games 35 - Goals 6 - Assists 8

If you look at those stats: 

1) Mount outperformed SFL in his first season by 1 goal and 4 assits even though he is two years younger. 

2) Mount is on course to again statistically beat SFL in goals and assists in his second year, dispite being 2 years younger. 

3) Grealish was still playing Champo football at the age Mount is now. Thus, Mount is having to operate in more difficult circumstances. That said, he has a +3 goal/assist record over Grealish for their age 20/21 season, albeit in more games. 

4) Mount is -3 goals/assists on Grealish on his age 21/22 season having played more games. However, again it needs to be remembered the level isn't comparable.

 

Edited by King Kante
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1 hour ago, King Kante said:

Thing is we can all pick statistics to use as we wish. First, your one that you have lifted is slightly disproportionate as you've 74 games v 18 games which is over a 4x difference. Second, it can be questioned if the quality of the opposition comparable? I ask as if his games missing are primarily against bottom half PL clubs, League Cup games and 3rd/4th seed European teams in the group stage, then that 50% win rate quickly looks horrific. 

🤣 Don't you think I'm not aware of all that? I was just curious about the numbers and hence why I went to just dig up. The numbers are never going to be comparable given Mount has been used a lot ever since breaking through the first team and since there's all the notion about he is our best player etc, that stat just sort of reinforces that notion! 

1 hour ago, King Kante said:

Another thing to consider is what players where doing at a comparable siutations/age to Mount. Here is a couple: 

SFL 

01/02 (First season at Chelsea - age 23) - Games 53 - Goals 7 - Assists 2

02/03 - Age 24 - Games 48 - Goals 8 - Assists 5 

Mount 

19/20 (age 20/21 - First season at Chelsea) - Games 53 - Goals 8 - Assists 6

20/21 (age 21/22) - Games 38 (season on going) - Goals 5 - Assists 6

Grealish (as he seems to be a player everyone wants to compare Mount too) 

17/18 (Age 20/21 - Championship) - Games 34 - Goals 3 - Assists 8

18/19 (Age 21/22 - Championship) - Games 35 - Goals 6 - Assists 8

If you look at those stats: 

1) Mount outperformed SFL in his first season by 1 goal and 4 assits even though he is two years younger. 

2) Mount is on course to again statistically beat SFL in goals and assists in his second year, dispite being 2 years younger. 

3) Grealish was still playing Champo football at the age Mount is now. Thus, Mount is having to operate in more difficult circumstances. That said, he has a +3 goal/assist record over Grealish for their age 20/21 season, albeit in more games. 

4) Mount is -3 goals/assists on Grealish on his age 21/22 season having played more games. However, again it needs to be remembered the level isn't comparable.

Am assuming that's for others because I wasn't even comparing Mount with other players!

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12 hours ago, Jason said:

Did you say Mount scores regularly🤨

Actually he is not that bad if you take away big games and games against top teams. In terms of goals.

I just did research and Mount played already 22 games against big6 clubs. I would add to that Bayern, Valencia, Ajax, Sevilla and Atletico.

These are 31 biggest games he had in Chelsea career. Overall he played 87 games.

So in these 31 games ha has 1 goal (DDG howler) and 1 assist (set piece - Leno howler). So without big GK mistakes it would be 0 and 0. But overall horrific stats.

But in other 56 games against lesser sides 12 goals and 9 assists (5 from set pieces) is not that bad for a midfielder. Actually it is pretty decent.

So no point in playing him against top teams. Industrial work is all that he will give you. Industrial player haha - this is the new term I learned when people praise Mount 😆

People say do not compare him to Grealish, Foden, Maddison...

Ok lets compare him to players from the same team on the same position. 

Overall it is pretty clear that biggest problem in Mount game is vision and creativity and I think this is the most important thing for his position.

Just 4 open play assists in almost 6500 minutes in Chelsea shirt. And it was against Barnsley, Burnley, Rennes and Wolves.

Havertz already 5 in less than 1500 mins. And this is slow start Kai who is nowhere near his best level.

RLC in the season 18/19 under Sarri had 10 goals and 5 assists (all open play) in less than 2000 mins.

Ross Barkley last season 5g and 5a in 1700 mins while Mount had 8g and 5a but in over 3700 mins. Ross 4 open play assists, Mount 2 last season.

So here you can see how everyone is more creative and has better assists stats in twice or more than 4 times less minutes.

I do not understand when people say he looked lively yesterday or against Spurs lately or Southampton. People need to understand what is needed from his position.

Ofc he does when he is in the center of everything and only AM in the team. Did we kept clean sheets? Yes! Thank you defense. Did we controlled the games? Yes! Thank you Kova and Jorgi mostly.

Did we created anything in the final 3rd from open play? Very little in all games under Tuchel. And here you first need to look at Mount. And this is our biggest problem as a team.

Edited by NikkiCFC
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1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

 

I love how you downplayed Mount's goals by his lack of goals scored against top opposition whilst at the same time praising Havertz, RLC, and Barkley for better goals to games ratio when the toughest opposition they scored against were Saints (Havertz), Frankfurt (Ruben) and Liverpool's B team in the FA Cup (Barkley). Your agenda continues to shine through. 😂

It's evident Mount shouldn't be spearheading our attack. He should be playing beneath Ziyech or Havertz. 

 

Edited by MoroccanBlue
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2 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I love how you downplayed Mount's goals by his lack of goals scored against top opposition whilst at the same time praising Havertz, RLC, and Barkley for better goals to games ratio when the toughest opposition they scored against was Saints (Havertz), Frankfurt (Ruben) and Liverpool's B team in the FA Cup (Barkley). Your agenda continues to shine through. 😂

 

I did not praise any of them. Just comparad all their stats. Did not mentioned Havertz goals at all. My focus was on assists and creativity. I actually praised Mount for goals against lesser side.

Does anyone thinks that RLC or Barkley are good enough for Chelsea starting 11? I am sure no one. Does anyone think Mount is good enough for Chelsea starting 11? Many.

This is the problem. Standard is very low. If you think that your AM who averages 2 open play assists per season (and against weak teams) is good enough for Chelsea you are basically saying: I do not want Chelsea to reach City level and win titles, I am fine with 4th, 5th, 6th place.

I put Chelsea first while Mount fanboys are acting like Lampard fanboys (probably same people) and would rather continue with them and finish 6th which Lampard fanboys even admitted on the other forum and social media.

And guess who was proven wrong about Lampard and who was right? It will be the same again, because it is very similar situation.

I can only imagine what pressure would Tuchel feel if he benches Mount for 3 or 4 games in a row. Internet would explode. And that is going to happen very soon because Pulisic, Ziyech and Havertz are superior players just not in form or injured.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

I just did research and Mount played already 22 games against big6 clubs. I would add to that Bayern, Valencia, Ajax, Sevilla and Atletico.

If you're going to add the "big six" then why aren't Wolves and Leicester there aswell? Both are better than Arsenal and probably Spurs, or is that because it means a further 3 goals and 3 assists are added?

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40 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I did not praise any of them. Just comparad all their stats. Did not mentioned Havertz goals at all. My focus was on assists and creativity. I actually praised Mount for goals against lesser side.

Does anyone thinks that RLC or Barkley are good enough for Chelsea starting 11? I am sure no one. Does anyone think Mount is good enough for Chelsea starting 11? Many.

This is the problem. Standard is very low. If you think that your AM who averages 2 open play assists per season (and against weak teams) is good enough for Chelsea you are basically saying: I do not want Chelsea to reach City level and win titles, I am fine with 4th, 5th, 6th place.

I put Chelsea first while Mount fanboys are acting like Lampard fanboys (probably same people) and would rather continue with them and finish 6th which Lampard fanboys even admitted on the other forum and social media.

And guess who was proven wrong about Lampard and who was right? It will be the same again, because it is very similar situation.

I can only imagine what pressure would Tuchel feel if he benches Mount for 3 or 4 games in a row. Internet would explode. And that is going to happen very soon because Pulisic, Ziyech and Havertz are superior players just not in form or injured.

When will you comprehend Mount is not an attacking mid? 

The fact he's playing there just highlights the fact Ziyech and Havertz aren't in form.  Mount is being favored by Tuchel the very same reason why Klopp has instilled all his trust in Wijnaldum. He's an engine, moves the ball quickly, and covers a lot of ground essential to pressing. I suppose Wijnaldum isn't good enough for Liverpool who was only instrumental in helping Liverpool win the league and Champions league.

 

Edited by MoroccanBlue
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10 hours ago, Jason said:

🤣 Don't you think I'm not aware of all that? I was just curious about the numbers and hence why I went to just dig up. The numbers are never going to be comparable given Mount has been used a lot ever since breaking through the first team and since there's all the notion about he is our best player etc, that stat just sort of reinforces that notion! 

Am assuming that's for others because I wasn't even comparing Mount with other players!

Has there been people saying he is our best player or that he has been the best player this season? That is a pretty big difference. There are plenty of examples where players have won accolades even though technically they aren't as great as others. 

Further, if you're resorting to stats, then you need to appreciate that you can be asked for detailed break downs on these (i.e. my quality of opposition question) and then have contrasting stats thrown at you. I am not being funny stating this, just rather making a general point that using stats to support and arguement cannot be done so without having a clear understanding of the underlying nuances. 

As for my inclusion of Grealish, yes that was more of a general point than aimed exclusively aimed at you as this is a ongoing discussion on here. 

Edited by King Kante
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1 hour ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When will you comprehend Mount is not an attacking mid? 

The fact he's playing there just highlights the fact Ziyech and Havertz aren't in form.  Mount is being favored by Tuchel the very same reason why Klopp has instilled all his trust in Wijnaldum. He's an engine, moves the ball quickly, and covers a lot of ground essential to pressing. I suppose Wijnaldum isn't good enough for Liverpool who was only instrumental in helping Liverpool win the league and Champions league.

 

Thanks for adding this, it saves me replying. 

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1 minute ago, King Kante said:

Has there been people saying he is our best player or that he has been the best player this season? That is a pretty big difference. There are plenty of examples where players have won accolades even though technically they aren't as great as others. 

Both.

1 minute ago, King Kante said:

Further, if you're resorting to stats, then you need to appreciate that you can be asked for detailed break downs on these (i.e. my quality of opposition question) and then have contrasting stats thrown at you. I am not being funny stating this, just rather making a general point that using stats to support and arguement cannot be done so without having a clear understanding of the underlying nuances. 

I could but am lazy to do it now. I only checked the stats because I was bit bored. I am well aware of the holes in that stat. There's no need to take it seriously. 

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1 hour ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When will you comprehend Mount is not an attacking mid? 

The fact he's playing there just highlights the fact Ziyech and Havertz aren't in form.  Mount is being favored by Tuchel the very same reason why Klopp has instilled all his trust in Wijnaldum. He's an engine, moves the ball quickly, and covers a lot of ground essential to pressing. I suppose Wijnaldum isn't good enough for Liverpool who was only instrumental in helping Liverpool win the league and Champions league.

TBF attacking midfielder or no attacking midfielder, am sure Tuchel and Mount himself expect the end product in the final third - both have said so about creating chances and scoring goals. Otherwise if we take yesterday's starting XI for example, only 2 players would get the goals and no one else would score them and not many others would even create the chances. If Mount can get better with his end product, he would likely go on to be among the best, and I also think he has more potential to improve than Wijnaldum had anyway. 

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2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When will you comprehend Mount is not an attacking mid? 

The fact he's playing there just highlights the fact Ziyech and Havertz aren't in form.  Mount is being favored by Tuchel the very same reason why Klopp has instilled all his trust in Wijnaldum. He's an engine, moves the ball quickly, and covers a lot of ground essential to pressing. I suppose Wijnaldum isn't good enough for Liverpool who was only instrumental in helping Liverpool win the league and Champions league.

 

Liverpool and PSG are the only teams that can be successful that way because they have world class front 3 players. Salah, Mane and Firmino or Mbappe, Neymar and Cavani/Icardi/Di Maria. They played mostly with 3 CM/DM type of midfielders behind because those guys upfront can score 70/80 goals per season on their own. Just give them the ball. 

We don't have that. Werner, Giroud, Tammy or even if we get Haaland would be dependable on our midfielders delivering for them. And if they have Mount behind they are pretty much fucked. This is my point. 

Doesn't matter if he plays number 8, or 10 or is one of the 3 most offensive players. 

Btw he has reputation of goal scoring midfielder. In Vitesse, Derby etc...  So is different to Wijnaldum in that regard. 

And he has always been most attacking midfield in any setup for any team. Also played 15+ games for Chelsea as a winger and many times for England. 

You basically admitted there is no place for Mount in this formation? 

He can't play in double pivot either. Tuchel said Gilmour is number 4 there and we know who are 3 players ahead. 

Are you saying Mount is a system player and can only play in 433? And even Lampard before being sacked said that he sees our number 8s as two number 10. Nevertheless on formation our attackers are dependable on players behind. 

I want Chelsea to be successful and this is the point of whole discussion. 

Without Giroud wonder strike we would not score. Without pens we would not score against Spurs and Southampton. Without defenders we would not score against Burnley... I'm not saying this is all on Mount ofc but trying to figure it out how can we solve our offensive problems that are clear. 

I've never saw future with Lamps 433 and Kante solo with Mount and Kai or Kova as number 8s. That would take us nowhere. Because it is not best position for Kante and Kai. And there was no balance. 

Tuchel made formation change which is good step forward considering it is more suitable for this group of players. 

But now is the time to go with Kai/Hakim in Mount role. 

We all want Chelsea to be on top and let me pretend for a second that Mount has to play in that team. It would have to be 433. He would need extra creative number 8/10 along side. Basically KDB level and someone like Casemiro behind to cover. Or we can have front 3 like PSG but neither is going to happen. 

Lamps often spoke about Mount when he is 25 or something. By that time he maybe becomes player many are talking about but I feel we don't have luxury to give him 3500/4000 minutes next season and season after because we want success now. 

Not sure what are you guys even arguing against me? Because every time it feels like you care more about Mason than Chelsea and only point is that he has to play in the starting 11. 

 

 

Edited by NikkiCFC
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17 hours ago, Jason said:

Did you say Mount scores regularly🤨

eh yeah that depends on how you look at it, but I'd definitely consider him a goal threat.

And at 22, I honestly think we are way too demanding on him.

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54 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Liverpool and PSG are the only teams that can be successful that way because they have world class front 3 players. Salah, Mane and Firmino or Mbappe, Neymar and Cavani/Icardi/Di Maria. They played mostly with 3 CM/DM type of midfielders behind because those guys upfront can score 70/80 goals per season on their own. Just give them the ball. 

We don't have that. Werner, Giroud, Tammy or even if we get Haaland would be dependable on our midfielders delivering for them. And if they have Mount behind they are pretty much fucked. This is my point. 

Doesn't matter if he plays number 8, or 10 or is one of the 3 most offensive players. 

Btw he has reputation of goal scoring midfielder. In Vitesse, Derby etc...  So is different to Wijnaldum in that regard. 

And he has always been most attacking midfield in any setup for any team. Also played 15+ games for Chelsea as a winger and many times for England. 

You basically admitted there is no place for Mount in this formation? 

He can't play in double pivot either. Tuchel said Gilmour is number 4 there and we know who are 3 players ahead. 

Are you saying Mount is a system player and can only play in 433? And even Lampard before being sacked said that he sees our number 8s as two number 10. Nevertheless on formation our attackers are dependable on players behind. 

I want Chelsea to be successful and this is the point of whole discussion. 

Without Giroud wonder strike we would not score. Without pens we would not score against Spurs and Southampton. Without defenders we would not score against Burnley... I'm not saying this is all on Mount ofc but trying to figure it out how can we solve our offensive problems that are clear. 

I've never saw future with Lamps 433 and Kante solo with Mount and Kai or Kova as number 8s. That would take us nowhere. Because it is not best position for Kante and Kai. And there was no balance. 

Tuchel made formation change which is good step forward considering it is more suitable for this group of players. 

But now is the time to go with Kai/Hakim in Mount role. 

We all want Chelsea to be on top and let me pretend for a second that Mount has to play in that team. It would have to be 433. He would need extra creative number 8/10 along side. Basically KDB level and someone like Casemiro behind to cover. Or we can have front 3 like PSG but neither is going to happen. 

Lamps often spoke about Mount when he is 25 or something. By that time he maybe becomes player many are talking about but I feel we don't have luxury to give him 3500/4000 minutes next season and season after because we want success now. 

Not sure what are you guys even arguing against me? Because every time it feels like you care more about Mason than Chelsea and only point is that he has to play in the starting 11. 

 

 

So, what is your solution? Sell him now like we did with KdB and Salah allow him to develop elsewhere then potentially become a £100m player and either buy him then or see him go to one of our competitors? 

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