Marcos Alonso

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

29 minutes ago, Jason said:

Why does the player power factor have to be "used" every time a manager gets sacked? Why can't a manager gets sacked simply because he was just bad at his job? 

Player power + Board incompetence is what has led this club to absolute mediocrity.

We are on course for to miss out on Champions League football for the 3rd time in 4 years, despite being one of the highest spenders in world football. That is utterly embarrassing. It's been 3 years, and the fact Alonso is still our starting LB, Pedro and Willian have still not been upgraded on, and no top striker, are the main factors as to why we do so poor in the league.The fact the club prefers them over elite coaches, perfectly reflects our league position. 

 

 

 

[Unionjack 7,531]

8 minutes ago, Robchels said:

a better manager would either produce a system in which Alonso does not have to defend,

Bit bloody hard seeing that his job is a defender mate!!

 

9 minutes ago, Robchels said:

Not mutually exclusive: he may be a bad manager and the players exert too much power.to your point, while the players may not believe in the manager, it’s also the managers job to sell his ideas to the players.

This has happened to our last 2 managers also.

Were they weak?

It is a reourring thing with this group of players - a lot who were chosen by our previous 2 managers.

The players play shit with no soul,fight or spirit but the manager takes it up the arse1

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, MoroccanBlue said:

Player power + Board incompetence is what has led this club to absolute mediocrity.

We are on course for to miss out on Champions League football for the 3rd time in 4 years, despite being one of the highest spenders in world football. That is utterly embarrassing. It's been 3 years, and the fact Alonso is still our starting LB, Pedro and Willian have still not been upgraded on, and no top striker, are the main factors as to why we do so poor in the league.The fact the club prefers them over elite coaches, perfectly reflects our league position. 

I agree we have issues with players and the board but it shouldn't deflect the fact that the manager is doing a rubbish job. We either have manager who leads us to success early before going rogue or have a manager who is just crap.

You said the board prefer the players over elite coaches, which I agree on the basis that they give dumb contract extensions, but let's not forget that the manager can make a statement with those you mentioned by not picking them but they do not. Mourinho/Conte, for example, kept picking Willian and made him integral to their teams. Sarri kept picking Alonso, at least until recently, and made him feel important to the team (even said he's one of the best LBs in the world!). So rather than just blaming the board, you should also question why the manager keep on making these poor quality players important in his team. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

11 minutes ago, Jason said:

I agree we have issues with players and the board but it shouldn't deflect the fact that the manager is doing a rubbish job. We either have manager who leads us to success early before going rogue or have a manager who is just crap.

You said the board prefer the players over elite coaches, which I agree on the basis that they give dumb contract extensions, but let's not forget that the manager can make a statement with those you mentioned by not picking them but they do not. Mourinho/Conte, for example, kept picking Willian and made him integral to their teams. Sarri kept picking Alonso, at least until recently, and made him feel important to the team (even said he's one of the best LBs in the world!). So rather than just blaming the board, you should also question why the manager keep on making these poor quality players important in his team. 

Do you think we have a better squad than United or Spurs? I for sure don't. 

I think our league position perfectly reflects the quality we have. That's the difference. If we were doing poorly with a capable squad, then I would be all for Sarri's sacking. Issue is, I see no quality with our attack bar Hazard. A midfield with no end product. Two poor fullbacks and an unreliable defence. You are essentially asking Sarri to create a silk purse out of sow's ear. Ian Wright said it best. Without Hazard, we are a poor team. 

Make no mistake. Him continuing to pick Alonso and continuing to bench Odoi has me fuming just as much as you. But that is not enough to warrant a sack for me. The first 30 minutes against Everton, I saw Sarri's style and it was clear as day that if we had better technical players, we would be getting better results. Only issue is whether or not the board will back him. 

 

[robsblubot 3,544]

10 minutes ago, Unionjack said:

Bit bloody hard seeing that his job is a defender mate!!

disagree. A fullback is only a defender in very specific systems and formations: say in the very English and outdated 2-lines 442/4411.

real won everything with the worst defender as a left back. Half the fbs listed here as options are attacking ones like telles.

attacking fbs are not a new thing.

I cannot go past the manager on this one: Seen about 10 different successful systems with 4 in the back and one very attacking fullback. Never w/ 2 attacking fullbacks tho.

he plays Alonso and relies on him to defend: his own fault

 

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, MoroccanBlue said:

Do you think we have a better squad than United or Spurs? I for sure don't. 

I think our league position perfectly reflects the quality we have. That's the difference. If we were doing poorly with a capable squad, then I would be all for Sarri's sacking. Issue is, I see no quality with our attack bar Hazard. A midfield with no end product. Two poor fullbacks and an unreliable defence. You are essentially asking Sarri to create a silk purse out of sow's ear. 

Thing is this the second season in a row where we were sitting comfortably in the top 4 until December but come January, we slipped down the hill. Our squad ain't Man City or Liverpool level but it's still decent enough to finish in the top 4 if we have a manager who puts them in a system that gets the best out of them.

2 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Make no mistake. Him continuing to pick Alonso and continuing to bench Odoi has me fuming just as much as you. But that is not enough to warrant a sack for me. The first 30 minutes against Everton, I saw Sarri's style and it was clear as day that if we had better technical players, we would be getting better results. Only issue is whether or not the board will back him. 

How much of that performance was down to us being good and the opposition being bad? Because we've always looked this season when our opponents are just bad but we've always struggled when we play at least a half decent opposition. The minute Everton turned up in that second half, we just became shit and had no response. 

[Unionjack 7,531]

5 minutes ago, Robchels said:

 A fullback is only a defender in very specific systems and formations

Doesn't give Dave too much to do then eh.

i totally agree about picking the cunt in the first place. Thats 1 of the 3 things that pisses me off about Sarri.

But Alonso doesn't have even the basics down right now. How often does he get a cross past the 1st closest to him? How often does he take it to the baseline?

@MoroccanBlue is dead right what he says. The system of Sarris CAN work and has but this bunch of gutless wet farts lack both the character and the abilities needed to play it.

[robsblubot 3,544]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Thing is this the second season in a row where we were sitting comfortably in the top 4 until December but come January, we slipped down the hill. Our squad ain't Man City or Liverpool level but it's still decent enough to finish in the top 4 if we have a manager who puts them in a system that gets the best out of them.

How much of that performance was down to us being good and the opposition being bad? Because we've always looked this season when our opponents are just bad but we've always struggled when we play at least a half decent opposition. The minute Everton turned up in that second half, we just became shit and had no response. 

the system Sarri is trying to implement relies on possession to defend. This is the same as Guardiola. That's why he has Jorginho as a DLP as opposed to a DM. It's a different way of thinking about defending.

Now to your point, as soon as Everton started pressing our passing went down the drain. And you still need all of our players pressing the opposition when we don't have the ball... Eden does not do that at all, and others not enough...

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Thing is this the second season in a row where we were sitting comfortably in the top 4 until December but come January, we slipped down the hill. Our squad ain't Man City or Liverpool level but it's still decent enough to finish in the top 4 if we have a manager who puts them in a system that gets the best out of them.

Well wouldn't that be down to our player's mentality then?  When you have players complaining about how tactical and strict Conte/Sarri are in training, yet just a few weeks ago Sterling worshiped the fact Pep is so demanding and strategic with them, kinda reflects perfectly on the difference of situations between the both of us. 

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

How much of that performance was down to us being good and the opposition being bad? Because we've always looked this season when our opponents are just bad but we've always struggled when we play at least a half decent opposition. The minute Everton turned up in that second half, we just became shit and had no response. 

I seem to recall us moving the ball much quicker and creating loads of chances in the third, just zero penetration. 

Another thing I've noticed this season is how quickly we can just switch off. We can show urgency and focus, then the next thing you know, we are one individual mistake from total capitulation. Alonso always being a culprit. No movement. Poor decision making. Poor defending. Poor performance. I would've been more harsh on Sarri given Alonso shouldn't of started, but we should of been 2 or 3 nil up by halftime. 

[robsblubot 3,544]

11 minutes ago, Unionjack said:

Doesn't give Dave too much to do then eh.

i totally agree about picking the cunt in the first place. Thats 1 of the 3 things that pisses me off about Sarri.

But Alonso doesn't have even the basics down right now. How often does he get a cross past the 1st closest to him? How often does he take it to the baseline?

@MoroccanBlue is dead right what he says. The system of Sarris CAN work and has but this bunch of gutless wet farts lack both the character and the abilities needed to play it.

The systems I know that worked well, with 4 in the back and attacking FBs,  seamlessly switched between 4 and 3 in the back. So, Alonso or another attacking FB would not have to drop back that much -- possibly improving his attacking output -- while Azpi would not have to go up much, prob also improving his defense (less useless running). That's why Azpi did better as a 3rd CB... same with alonso as a wingback.

There is also an option of adding DMs for cover, but it limits the midfield.

I'm sure his system can work, but not sure with the players at his disposal.

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, Robchels said:

the system Sarri is trying to implement relies on possession to defend. This is the same as Guardiola. That's why he has Jorginho as a DLP as opposed to a DM. It's a different way of thinking about defending.

Now to your point, as soon as Everton started pressing our passing went down the drain. And you still need all of our players pressing the opposition when we don't have the ball... Eden does not do that at all, and others not enough...

And that's why people were screaming for Sarri to adapt, to make tactical tweaks, to compromise in order to try and get the best out of this side.

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Well wouldn't that be down to our player's mentality then?  When you have players complaining about how tactical and strict Conte/Sarri are in training, yet just a few weeks ago Sterling worshiped the fact Pep is so demanding and strategic with them, kinda reflects perfectly on the difference of situations between the both of us. 

You can believe reports with no quotes of players saying they don't like the training or quotes directly from the players' mouth about them liking what Sarri's trying to do that. 

Like I get the players aren't blameless but I really don't why Sarri or any of the previous manager is getting absolved from any of the mess that's happened.

6 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I seem to recall us moving the ball much quicker and creating loads of chances in the third, just zero penetration. 

But we's always looked dangerous against crap oppositions and to use the most recent opponent as an example - Dynamo Kiev.

7 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Another thing I've noticed this season is how quickly we can just switch off. We can show urgency and focus, then the next thing you know, we are one individual mistake from total capitulation. Alonso always being a culprit. No movement. Poor decision making. Poor defending. Poor performance. I would've been more harsh on Sarri given Alonso shouldn't of started, but we should of been 2 or 3 nil up by halftime. 

It's all ifs and buts at this point. We've collapsed far too often in second halves this season that the manager shouldn't be absolved of any blame here. Man management is also important as coaching the players on the technical side of things. But this is a manager who admitted he can't understand the team with almost a season into the job and that he can't motivate the players...

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

You can believe reports with no quotes of players saying they don't like the training or quotes directly from the players' mouth about them liking what Sarri's trying to do that. 

Like I get the players aren't blameless but I really don't why Sarri or any of the previous manager is getting absolved from any of the mess that's happened.

So if the reports aren't true, then what is it? Why do our players look as if they are downing tools if it doesn't mean they don't like Sarri's tactics? Happened with Conte, and they all gladly opened their mouth when they knew he was gone. 

19 minutes ago, Jason said:

But we's always looked dangerous against crap oppositions and to use the most recent opponent as an example - Dynamo Kiev.

We looked good against Spurs? United too in the FA Cup until Alonso decided to be Alonso. 

20 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

It's all ifs and buts at this point. We've collapsed far too often in second halves this season that the manager shouldn't be absolved of any blame here. Man management is also important as coaching the players on the technical side of things. But this is a manager who admitted he can't understand the team with almost a season into the job and that he can't motivate the players...

Yet this is the THIRD manager who is facing the same issues whilst the SAME players are still here?

[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

So if the reports aren't true, then what is it? Why do our players look as if they are downing tools if it doesn't mean they don't like Sarri's tactics? Happened with Conte, and they all gladly opened their mouth when they knew he was gone. 

What if they aren't downing tools? What if it's just down to the fact that Sarri is making these players play in a system that just don't suit their qualities, thereby leading to all these BS results and inconsistent performances?

10 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

We looked good against Spurs? United too in the FA Cup until Alonso decided to be Alonso. 

You really thought we were good against United? We were average and got worse after conceding those 2 goals.

I'll you give Spurs but it still doesn't change the fact that we've played badly more often than not against decent opposition. The fact that we've managed only 4 wins out of 17 and 16 points out of 57 against top 10 teams in the league this season says it all.

10 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Yet this is the THIRD manager who is facing the same issues whilst the SAME players are still here?

So, we're just gonna ignore the fact that Mourinho went to war with the club's medics, the board, players, media on a weekly basis in 2015? We're just gonna pretend like Conte didn't embark on his negative moan-fest in 2016? We're just gonna act like those two cases didn't have any impact on the team, on the club whatsoever?

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

What if they aren't downing tools? What if it's just down to the fact that Sarri is making these players play in a system that just don't suit their qualities, thereby leading to all these BS results and inconsistent performances?

I'm saying they are downing tools as a result of these players not being comfortable in this system. You don't just forget how to control a ball and become stagnant positionaly unless you aren't arsed. 

14 minutes ago, Jason said:

You really thought we were good against United? We were average and got worse after conceding those 2 goals.

I'll you give Spurs but it still doesn't change the fact that we've played badly more often than not against decent opposition. The fact that we've managed only 4 wins out of 17 and 16 points out of 57 against top 10 teams in the league this season says it all.

We were well up top against United until an individual mistake cost us. And like I mentioned, we switch off just like that. 

 

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

So, we're just gonna ignore the fact that Mourinho went to war with the club's medics, the board, players, media on a weekly basis in 2015? We're just gonna pretend like Conte didn't embark on his negative moan-fest in 2016? We're just gonna act like those two cases didn't have any impact on the team, on the club whatsoever?

Mourinho and Conte moaned because we failed to strengthen after a title win. Board incompetence is just as much the problem. 

[Jase 43,479]

14 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I'm saying they are downing tools as a result of these players not being comfortable in this system. You don't just forget how to control a ball and become stagnant positionaly unless you aren't arsed. 

First you said they do not have quality and now that. Make up your mind...

14 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Mourinho and Conte moaned because we failed to strengthen after a title win. Board incompetence is just as much the problem.

The board may be incompetent but it doesn't justify their actions of moaning EVERY WEEK and dragging everyone else down!

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

13 minutes ago, Jason said:

First you said they do not have quality and now that. Make up your mind...

The board may be incompetent but it doesn't justify their actions of moaning EVERY WEEK and dragging everyone else down!

I'm sorry? Did we look like competing for the league even with that start? Night and day difference but we in no shape looked better than Spurs or Liverpool. United got rid of that cancer and now the table perfectly reflects the quality. 

You don't sign successful managers and not give them the tools to succeed? Let's go for Bredon Rodgers then? 

 

[Jase 43,479]

11 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I'm sorry? Did we look like competing for the league even with that start? Night and day difference but we in no shape looked better than Spurs or Liverpool. United got rid of that cancer and now the table perfectly reflects the quality. 

You don't sign successful managers and not give them the tools to succeed? Let's go for Bredon Rodgers then?