The Mourinho Thread

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Well last year la Liga was also entertaining going down to the wire.

So that "entertainment" value is there in a lot of league.

Hence your argument there is pretty weak.

Wrong. I don't find that argument weak at all. No league comes even close to the entertainment value the EPL provides. As I said the background story, the drama etc. It's a huge theater. That's a pretty obvious fact.

La Liga went down to the wire with three teams for the first time. Roll on next season, we are going back to the same two teams. That's a weak argument.

[robsblubot 3,573]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2698182/Jose-Mourinho-believes-Premier-League-strongest-world-football.html

Mourinho is wrong about this one. I watched a Paul Braitner interview, where he said that PL, just like brazilian football, stop its development. He believes PL was the best league until 2009, but the teams stopped looking elsewhere.

PL is not the strongest in the world anymore, it still is my favorite league, but not the strongest. We just need to look at english clubs record in Europe in past seasons. Since 2009, when United were favorites, but lost to Barcelona, we only had english teams involved in 2 finals out of 5, in both finals those teams were underdogs: United got smashed by Barcelona in 2011, and Chelsea win in 2012 was a result of the heroic efforts from the players, and not a result of dominant football.

We just need to compare english top teams from past season with those ones from 2005 and 2009. Liverpool had some miserable seasons, and is only returning to UCL this season, but right now without their big star, we can't see them emulating Benitez team success. United is in decline since they let Ronaldo leave. They got weaker season after season. Even in 2013, their last successful season, their european campaign was embarrassing. City won 2 of the last 3 domestic league, but in Europe they are non-existent. Chelsea never managed to be as strongest as in the old days, 2 season ago the team was ou in the group stage.

PL can't attract the best players anymore, since 2009 PL lost the likes of Modric, Fabregas, Ronaldo, Tevez, Suarez, Bale. Fabregas is back, but he is back because his return to Barcelona never went according to the plan. Cavani, Falcao, Kroos, James Rodriguez, Guardiola, all those guys decided to go to another league (even Mourinho returned because his life in Spain was not exactly what he expected).

Well, do we have more competition in PL? Last season was an anomaly, PL usually is a two horse race, its Chelsea/United, Liverpool/Manchester, City/United, and in some season we know who is going to win in the half of it, like Manchester in 12/13, or Chelsea in 05/06, and even if that was the case, its the same argument some crazy people use to say brazilian league is the best in the world: in the start of the season we have up to 6 teams fighting for the trophy, while is Spain its always Real vs Barcelona...

I couldn't disagree more.

PL does not sign players, clubs do.

And the pool of resources (money) in the EPL is more equally divided than in the other leagues. You have 4 big clubs who sign top players, plus 1-2 clubs which can on occasion be competitive.

the PL is the best league for me because the money pool is more diluted, not despite of it. Look at Germany! It's a one club race! Where Dortmunt's best players leave for Bayern...

Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, with Atletico once in a blue moon. Italy would be the only league with more contenders, but they are in a terrible crisis.

No, the PL is indeed the best league in the world with the greatest concentration of top teams and quality players.

[Henrique 9,133]

Measure a league in terms of entertainment value, nothing comes close to the EPL.

Thats an opinion. In terms of entertainment value, nothing comes close to Brazilian league when title was decided in knockout stages...entertainment value is different from the strongest.

Paul Breitner's word vs Mourinho's word haha. What if Dennis Rodman would tell you that the French basketball league is the best in the world? Would you quote him? Or Pete Rose would tell you that the Italian baseball league is the best in the world? Would you quote him, too?! Did you even read the whole article? Or did you stop after the title?

Mourinho is talking about the competitiveness part of this league, a thing we've already discussed during the Champions leg against Paris. All you do is compare English teams' performance in Europe.

EPL is the best league in the world because here you have at least four teams fighting for the title at the start of the season (Chelsea, City, United, Arsenal). Plus three other top teams in Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton.

Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham not winning a title in ages does not make the EPL a two-horse race.

La Liga = Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico in the last two or three years. Until then, it was a two-horse race. In France it was Lyon, now it's Paris. In Germany it was always Bayern de Munich and Borussia. Italy used to be a decent league, but now Juventus is winning titles for fun.

As I said, Jose was talking about the competitiveness part of the league:

1) Almeria, Elche, Rayo, Granada will loose 99/100 matches against Madrid and Barcelona

2) Nice, Guingamp, Evian, Reims will always loose against Paris and Monaco.

3) Freiburg, Frankfurt, Hannover will loose 99/100 matches against Bayern de Munich and Borussia.

4) Italy? Is there any decent team to fight against Juventus? Sassuolo, Chievo, Cagliari would even get trashed by Everton and Newcastle.

Now how about England? Teams like WBA, Villa, West Ham will always put up a fight against the big boys. None of this teams will loose 99/100 matches against Chelsea, City and United. That's why EPL is the best in the world and that's what Jose was talking about - it's not only about teams fighting for the title, it's about the other teams, too. You can go to Rayo and say Madrid will trash them, but you can't go to The Hawthorns and say Chelsea and City will be having a walk in the park.

Now tell me, what's the best league in the world? The two-horse race leagues in Spain, Germany, Italy and France, or the EPL?!

1- This is not about Breitner vs Mourinho. Mourinho is a very good coach but he say a lot of nonsensical stuff, so if you are comparing Breitner to Rodman, you really don't what you are talking about. You are one of those guys if Mourinho comes up saying Hazard is better than Messi you would agree, because he is Mourinho.

2-Mourinho wasn't talking about the competitiveness, he was saying PL still is the strongest because he believes its the more competitive.

3- Villa, WBA, West Ham, years ago those teams would lose 90% of the matches against the likes of Chelsea and United. I don't know you were watching PL in 2005, but before the match we knew Chelsea would beat Everton, Villa, City...some people are saying those teams are getting stronger, while that might be true in some aspect, no one can deny the big boys are not as strong as they used to be, you just need to see how those teams are doing in Europe in last 5 years, its not a coincidence that the rest of PL started to look stronger in that period...

4- Well, in PL we have 4 teams fighting for the trophy before the season starts, it means they fight for the trophy in theory. This season would be again a 2 horse race. Perhaps Arsenal will "fight" for the trophy untill january, but again, last season was an anomaly, and we had 3, all the previous seasons the title was decided between two team,. Lets compare PL since 2004 with other leagues you mentioned:

04-14: PL had 4 differente winners: Arsenal, Chelsea, City and United.

04-14: La Liga had 4 different winners: Barcelona, Atletico, Real and Valencia.

04-14: Bundesliga had 5 different winners: Bayern, Borussia, Wolfsburg, Hamburg and Weder Bremen.

Yes, I'm using the english clubs record in Europe because its the best way to compare the strongest teams in Europe. PL does not have the strongest teams anymore, don't even have the best players anymore, in last 5 years, the PL clubs are spending big money for the likes of Lallana, Paulinho, Fellaini...

[Henrique 9,133]

I couldn't disagree more.

PL does not sign players, clubs do.

And the pool of resources (money) in the EPL is more equally divided than in the other leagues. You have 4 big clubs who sign top players, plus 1-2 clubs which can on occasion be competitive.

the PL is the best league for me because the money pool is more diluted, not despite of it. Look at German! It's a one club race! Where Dortmunt's best players leave for Bayern...

Real Madrid and Barcelona in Spain, with Atletico once in a blue moon. Italy would be the only league with more contenders, but they are in a terrible crisis.

No, the PL is indeed the best league in the world with the greatest concentration of top teams and quality players.

PL does no sign, but if the clubs can't sign the best players they are not playing in the league, you got what I mean, pointless argument.

About being the best, that an opinion, you can't measure which league is the best, for me PL is also the best, but definitely not the strongest.

About the greatest concentration of quality players, just check the top 30 players in the world at this moment and you will find few of them playing in PL.

[robsblubot 3,573]

PL does no sign, but if the clubs can't sign the best players they are not playing in the league, you got what I mean, pointless argument.

About being the best, that an opinion, you can't measure which league is the best, for me PL is also the best, but definitely not the strongest.

About the greatest concentration of quality players, just check the top 30 players in the world at this moment and you will find few of them playing in PL.

I don't think you got my point.

Think about a hypothetical world where London had a single top club and Manchester another; those two clubs would be really powerful and compete with real and bayern for the absolutely top players.

I don't disagree they have the edge right now, but that wasn't my point: there is really no other way with the number of clubs in London and Manchester.

I can't make a better point than this; for actual numbers and better reasoning check out soccernomic book.

[Fernando 6,497]

Wrong. I don't find that argument weak at all. No league comes even close to the entertainment value the EPL provides. As I said the background story, the drama etc. It's a huge theater. That's a pretty obvious fact.

La Liga went down to the wire with three teams for the first time. Roll on next season, we are going back to the same two teams. That's a weak argument.

Still weak, because I find other league as entertainment as well.

Now if you say you like the competitive teams relative to each other then I agree on that. There's like at least 7 good competitive teams more then in any other league, relative to each other.

That doesn't mean that all those 7 are the best in the world, but relative to each other they provide good competition.

So yes your argument of "entertainment" only is a very weak argument in itself cause anyone can say that this other league is entertainment.

Entertainment that's very vague.

What you find entertaining does not mean the same to me.

[Barbara 15,149]

At the end of the day, it's a subjective matter.

I don't think any league comes nearly close to EPL in quality and entertainment. Bundesliga doesn't attract me at all, I can't watch that, so when someone tells me that that league is fun, I'm dumbfounded - because that's my personal perception.

Italian used to be my fave, but that was literally decades ago. Spain has a good league, but the disparity between the big and the rest is so large, that is boring. Not that there isn't disparity in England, there is of course, even with the money better distributed, but there's so much history in some match-ups, and there's something in the atmosphere that there isn't elsewhere. The way the English support, the way they approach football, it's unique. Also because of the physicality of the game and the way it's played, how the game is approached, it gives a better chance for surprises.

And the European argument is null and void. The strongest the league, the less likely of teams from that league doing well in the European. Isn't that obvious such as 1+1=2? When Bayern can completely disregard their Bundesliga match ahead and after and important and difficult round in UCL, we have to face Liverpool, current top of the league - for example. Isn't it obvious that when you can't rest players because all matches are very tough and you have at least 4 title contenders in addition to 1 or 2 underdogs, you have to play your best team week in and out, many times twice a week? So for me the testament that EPL is the strongest league in the world is how their teams have to take turns in UCL - that when they go far either way. There's too much competitiveness domestically for them to dedicated themselves as much as others do from other countries because there's only so many times Real Madrid plays Barça and vice versa, so many times Bayern plays Dortmund. This is almost mathematical. If you have more competition at home, it means you can't rest and spare players domestically as teams from other leagues do ahead of their important UCL matches. It makes a whole difference, especially towards the end of the season when everyone is already tired.

[Fernando 6,497]

At the end of the day, it's a subjective matter.

I don't think any league comes nearly close to EPL in quality and entertainment. Bundesliga doesn't attract me at all, I can't watch that, so when someone tells me that that league is fun, I'm dumbfounded - because that's my personal perception.

Italian used to be my fave, but that was literally decades ago. Spain has a good league, but the disparity between the big and the rest is so large, that is boring. Not that there isn't disparity in England, there is of course, even with the money better distributed, but there's so much history in some match-ups, and there's something in the atmosphere that there isn't elsewhere. The way the English support, the way they approach football, it's unique. Also because of the physicality of the game and the way it's played, how the game is approached, it gives a better chance for surprises.

And the European argument is null and void. The strongest the league, the less likely of teams from that league doing well in the European. Isn't that obvious such as 1+1=2. When Bayern can completely disregard their Bundesliga match ahead and after and important and difficult round in UCL, we have to face Liverpool, current top of the league - for example. Isn't it obvious that when you can't rest players because all matches are very tough and you have at least 4 title contenders in addition to 1 or 2 underdogs, you have to play your best team week in and out, many times twice a week. So for me the testament that EPL is the strongest league in the world is how their teams have to take turns in UCL - that when they go far either way. There's too much competitiveness domestically for them to dedicated themselves as much as others do from other countries. This is almost mathematical.

Some people don't find this sport entertaining at all.

So for me the idea of entertainment in itself is not enough, cause that can mean so many different things for different people.

Team competitiveness amongst themselves is important as well the ability to attract top players.

[Barbara 15,149]

Some people don't find this sport entertaining at all.

So for me the idea of entertainment in itself is not enough.

Team competitiveness amongst themselves is important as well the ability to attract top players.

but then you should address those other leagues don't attract top players. Real Madrid does, Barcelona does and to a lesser extend Bayern does. The league that attract more top players continue to be the English. Outside of those three teams I mentioned, which top player goes to other teams in those leagues? Name me one, you don't even need more than that. Then there's PSG, Monaco, Anzhi, the rich flavor of the year, that will break the bank, but that's because they covered everyone else's bid. It's also a very simple thing. If I give your club more money for your player, you'll sell him to me, not to the next guy.

As I told in the previous post and you seemed to have completely disregarded, entertainment is subjective. That was the first point.

The third line of your response has been refuted though. Unless of course, you prove me that those leagues have top players going to other teams... Or instead of that the players that aren't going to those three teams aren't coming to different teams in England? Because that's how it is. They're either leaving to England or to those three teams...

[Fernando 6,497]

but then you should address those other leagues don't attract top players. Real Madrid does, Barcelona does and to a lesser extend Bayern does. The league that attract more top players continue to be the English. Outside of those three teams I mentioned, which top player goes to other teams in those leagues? Name me one, you don't even need more than that. Then there's PSG, Monaco, Anzhi, the rich flavor of the year, that will break the bank, but that's because they covered everyone else's bid. It's also a very simple thing. If I give your club more money for your player, you'll sell him to me, not to the next guy.

As I told you seemed to have completely disregarded, entertainment is subjective. That was the first point.

The third line of your response has been refuted though. Unless of course, you prove me that those leagues have top players going to other teams... Or instead of that the players that aren't going to those three teams are coming to different teams in England?

First of all I never disagree that the EPL is the best in the world.

I was arguing that using the idea of entertainment in itself is a pretty weak argument.

Second by what I said it's obvious that EPL ticks all the boxes. Like team competitiveness relative to themselves, and the ability to attract top players.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Louis Van Gaal just said the PL is the strongest league in the world too. So it isn't just Mourinho.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Louis Van Gaal just said the PL is the strongest league in the world too. So it isn't just Mourinho.

it depends. the PL is now open now, it's not just a Manchester-London tug of war anymore. Liverpool make ground, Tottenham are always potential upsetters. Even the race for 4th is more intriguing now.. so in that sense, yeah it's strong.

However you can also look at accessibility for fans, in the Bundesliga they play quality football and tickets are kept affordable so it continues to rise as a league. Though I'm sure eventually the dominance of Bayern will begin to bore the neutral.

La Liga could be going through a paradigm shift. Finally someone has broken the Real-Barca stronghold and now that Valencia have come into money anything could happen.

[Tomo 21,736]

I actually agree with Henrique here, the PL has declined tactically in the last 5 years.

The entertaining games we have got in recent years isn't due to quality football, it is down to teams making defensive cock up after defensive cock up, I don't like that. Football is meant to be hard to score, hench why there are mad celebrations when teams do. High scoring games are a nice treat once in a while, but if they happen to often it actually makes a mockery off what the football is about, if there's another 7-1 in the latter stages of the world cup any time soon, serious questions will be asked.

What im trying to say is in the second part of the 00's the prem was spot on tactically, teams had to score goals through great clever play as defensive cock ups were few and far between (Derby in 07 08 the only truly awful defensive side in that era) now half the goals are scored that way.

The only good defence in the PL is ours and that's because we have a compent manager who implemented the system to help, when 2nd place Liverpool ship 50 you know some things seriously wrong.

[Beigl 1,387]

I think the problem of recent years doesn´t only lies in the defence.The midfield of the top 6 Club from the 2000´s until 2011 there were only the best midfield players at the likes of Chelsea (Lamps in his prime,Ballack,Maka,Essien..),United (Scholes,Hargreaves..),Arsenal (Fabregas,Viera,Pires..)or even Liverpool (Gerrard in his prime,Alonso..).4-3-3 was often the formation,in which the teams excelled at this time with three class midfielders,who gave the teams stability and goals (LAMPARD!!).But then the teams changed their concentration from the center of the field to the wings and hired as many good wingers as they could and ignored their stability in midfield.So got results in top-games like 8-2 or 6-0 or 4-0 a possibility and you can count atleast 5 such games in a single PL season,which was unthinkable in 2007 for example.

[HD3D 1,038]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2698182/Jose-Mourinho-believes-Premier-League-strongest-world-football.html

Mourinho is wrong about this one. I watched a Paul Braitner interview, where he said that PL, just like brazilian football, stop its development. He believes PL was the best league until 2009, but the teams stopped looking elsewhere.

PL is not the strongest in the world anymore, it still is my favorite league, but not the strongest. We just need to look at english clubs record in Europe in past seasons. Since 2009, when United were favorites, but lost to Barcelona, we only had english teams involved in 2 finals out of 5, in both finals those teams were underdogs: United got smashed by Barcelona in 2011, and Chelsea win in 2012 was a result of the heroic efforts from the players, and not a result of dominant football.

We just need to compare english top teams from past season with those ones from 2005 and 2009. Liverpool had some miserable seasons, and is only returning to UCL this season, but right now without their big star, we can't see them emulating Benitez team success. United is in decline since they let Ronaldo leave. They got weaker season after season. Even in 2013, their last successful season, their european campaign was embarrassing. City won 2 of the last 3 domestic league, but in Europe they are non-existent. Chelsea never managed to be as strongest as in the old days, 2 season ago the team was ou in the group stage.

PL can't attract the best players anymore, since 2009 PL lost the likes of Modric, Fabregas, Ronaldo, Tevez, Suarez, Bale. Fabregas is back, but he is back because his return to Barcelona never went according to the plan. Cavani, Falcao, Kroos, James Rodriguez, Guardiola, all those guys decided to go to another league (even Mourinho returned because his life in Spain was not exactly what he expected).

Well, do we have more competition in PL? Last season was an anomaly, PL usually is a two horse race, its Chelsea/United, Liverpool/Manchester, City/United, and in some season we know who is going to win in the half of it, like Manchester in 12/13, or Chelsea in 05/06, and even if that was the case, its the same argument some crazy people use to say brazilian league is the best in the world: in the start of the season we have up to 6 teams fighting for the trophy, while is Spain its always Real vs Barcelona...

There is a difference between saying the EPL clubs are the strongest in the world, and saying the EPL, as a league, is the strongest.

If you look at the Spanish league (with the notable exception this year), it's a two horse race. This is not a strong league, this is a weak league with two strong teams,

What I mean by this is, put our league's two strongest sides (City and Chelsea) against La Liga's (Real Madrid and Barcelona) and we certainly wouldn't have a chance. But put our third strongest side (Liverpool) against theirs, then our fourth strongest (Arsenal, M. United, Tottenham, Everton), against theirs, etc. etc. and eventually you will reach the conclusion that, as a league, the EPL is much much stronger.

[Namika 922]

In terms of level, La Liga is miles away from the PL now. You just have to look at theirs top players and the top players in the PL. World class players who have proved their worth in the CL or in the WC (more in the CL because it's a higher level) are very rare in the PL but you have it in abundance in La Liga.

In head to head between the two league, La Liga wins also, in 11/12 Bilbao (10 in La Liga that year!!) played with MU (second of the PL), Atletico beat us this year, Barcelona beat City easily too and it was a poor Barça too... Where the PL is better than la Liga is the way that most teams play counterattacking football which create a lot of transition and is quite enjoyable where La Liga is more calm.

I would go as far to say that we're the only team capable of competiting with the top three of La Liga in the PL thanks to José.

[robsblubot 3,573]

In terms of level, La Liga is miles away from the PL now. You just have to look at theirs top players and the top players in the PL. World class players who have proved their worth in the CL or in the WC (more in the CL because it's a higher level) are very rare in the PL but you have it in abundance in La Liga.

In head to head between the two league, La Liga wins also, in 11/12 Bilbao (10 in La Liga that year!!) played with MU (second of the PL), Atletico beat us this year, Barcelona beat City easily too and it was a poor Barça too... Where the PL is better than la Liga is the way that most teams play counterattacking football which create a lot of transition and is quite enjoyable where La Liga is more calm.

I would go as far to say that we're the only team capable of competiting with the top three of La Liga in the PL thanks to José.

causality is more difficult to establish than that...

Are players actually *better* because their teams do better? Aren't just the better teams making their players look better as usual? Likewise, bad teams make their players look bad because defenders are left exposed and attackers less involved.

And then we go back to my earlier point: since the money pool (tickets, merchandise, advertizement, etc) is more equally divided in England with more than one top club in London and Manchester, Real, Bayern, and Barca will always have this edge; hence better teams and better individual quality can be purchased (100m buys).

Chelsea makes $50 buys, and so does Arsenal... perhaps a single London club would have been able to make 100m buys without much of a problem like Real can.

This is really capitalism at work.

[-Kaplan- 410]

The Mourinho thread?