The Mourinho Thread

[Stingray 9,441]

Firstly the term youth/youngsters in this context is not exclusive to "cobham graduates" It simply refers to any young player either fully homegrown or bought with the longterm vision in mind.

Why is it so important to me and others. I can't speak for others but for me personally there are a few reasons

1 This is by far the most talented crop of youngsters the club has had in the past couple of decades atleast (youngsters with broad meaning i,e players like Bamford, Traore, Pasalic et al are included) and the fears is that with the path we are headed, we are going to waste this huge opportunity and not take advantage of it by not fully integrating any of them into the first team. Players like Musonda and Boga do not grow on trees and most clubs will be extremely lucky to have them.

which brings me to point number 2 ensuring the development and promotion of these youngsters into the first team is very beneficial both financially and on the pitch. It's more resourceful and efficient to play players who are not only talented but have proven themselves at a decent level instead of wasting money on squad players who end up contributing very little to the first team. Players like Ake, Pasalic,Traore,Bamford have passed all the test thrown at them so far, must they jump through ring of fire before they are given the opportunity to prove themselves? opportunity that we have no problem giving to Cuadradro for example despite showing absolutely nothing to justify it. So

There is also the sentimental factor and a greater sense of accomplishment of producing homegrown players that go on to make a name for themselves (preferably at the club in this case)

But how are they going to achieve this< is it not by actually giving them opportunity in the first team to show that "they are good enough" Or do you expect them to show it on the bench? And those that have shown their qualities on loan don't get the opportunities either. Jose has no problem dishing out opportunities to players who have been in awful form for months like Ivanovic Cuadradro,falcao et al however.

Depends on your definition of Cobham product but Ryan bertrand by modern standard was a chelsea youth product (yeah he was bought from gillingham as a 16 yo) and he was regarded as the best left back in the league last season. ofcourse you could use the stricter criteria which would only include players that received all their youth training and education at the club to suite your argument.

Bump. This should be read and considered. Don't go to low on the modesty scale, guys.

[Yeboii 1,844]

Only got 1 question.

Has anyone sent Mou Pogba,Griezman and Witsels phone numbers?

Well he seems to get every one of his target's phone number so if he wanted them, he gets them lol!

[MihaiM24 156]

Only got 1 question.

Has anyone sent Mou Pogba,Griezman and Witsels phone numbers?

he has relations man If he wants he can call Mendes and get any players number

[Madmax 9,219]

But the criticism now, and in this thread, is on the current manager.

In the last five or so years we've had five different managers. Carlo was binned after two years. Both AvB and Di Matteo barely got their foot in the door. Rafa was interim from day one and now we have José. It's a high pressure appointment that doesn't lend itself well to the nurturing of youth. Most have barely been given time to put together the first team never mind usher in a new generation of players.

... Because he is the current manager? Why would he not be criticised? The problem with the 'stability and pressure' argument cop-out is that the goal posts keep getting shifted. 'AVB and Robbie didn't have enough time'. Others like Mourinho 'were under pressure'. There will always be excuses and at the end of the day everything but the lack of the managers' willingness will be blamed. It really isn't that hard to give someone say 700 minutes of football over 10 months. After all we've been happy enough to waste time with dross like Marin, Cuadrado, Benayoun, Torres, etc. Perhaps people like Boga, Musonda and Baker needed to cost 10 million pounds each to be afforded the same opportunities.

Despite that, Chelsea have given many a youth player a punt. Take yourself off to Wikipedia and search each seasons article and you'll see a whole heap of U21 names in our squad lists who were given game time. There's quite a lot. Most of them never made it, but is that Chelsea's fault? I doubt it since the majority couldn't force themselves into or hold down a places during their various loan spells. Even the players who have went on to reasonable success wouldn't get in to our first team now.

Coaches aren't stupid, if these guys are good enough they will play.

Wikipedia won't tell me what I already know - who actually was given serious game time except McEachran and Bertrand? Please don't count multi million pound signings like Zouma, Romeu, Lukaku and Sturridge because we're speaking of academy graduates. Certainly nobody by Mourinho himself, not even RLC after all that media hype. But of course, he was under pressure. I'll say this - say what you want about Carlo but mitigating circumstances or not, he did give chances to a few players - and not meaningless appearances like 2 minutes a season.

Again, coaches are stupid enough to persist with (take your pick here) so ... maybe it's a question of faith and not ability?

José bringing scrutiny on himself? He says he'll bring them through if they can cut it. There you go. Complain if he doesn't and in three years time these young guys are superstars in some other team, not two games in to his third season.

No, no, no.

This is Mourinho speaking in July 2013 about Chalobah :

We are thinking of letting him go on loan for a last season," said Mourinho. "That is our intention. He knows. We have discussed that with him. He is a very, very good player. I like him very much - very, very much. I am very impressed. For sure, a Chelsea player (in future), for sure. We think he is there. He could be in our squad already. But we think one more season and it will be his last one out on loan. We will see whether or not it is a Premier League club.

I don't even know which club Nat is at right now.

There were also words about how he'd blame himself if Brown, Baker and Solanke were not England players in 'a few years.' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2709249/Jose-Mourinho-says-Chelsea-kids-Lewis-Baker-Izzy-Brown-Dominic-Solanke-dont-play-England-blame-ME.html) More loan spells at Vitesse followed. Nowhere does he put riders like 'if they can cut it' - that's just Chelsea fans desperate to defend him no matter what.

People are getting down his throat now, third season back after a double, because we've had a few bad results. Common fan logic is "throw the kids on, at least they'll be up for it". Which would be fine, only enthusiasm and effort don't necessarily equal good results.

You're misdirecting the 'bad results' thing ... regular members here know I've defended Mourinho more than most, so for me the criticism in regards to lack of youth integration is solely that, not linked to anything else.

[Polo7 3,496]

Grass is always greener on the other side. Sums up our fans greatly.

[Reddish-Blue 2,345]

... Because he is the current manager? Why would he not be criticised? The problem with the 'stability and pressure' argument cop-out is that the goal posts keep getting shifted. 'AVB and Robbie didn't have enough time'. Others like Mourinho 'were under pressure'. There will always be excuses and at the end of the day everything but the lack of the managers' willingness will be blamed. It really isn't that hard to give someone say 700 minutes of football over 10 months. After all we've been happy enough to waste time with dross like Marin, Cuadrado, Benayoun, Torres, etc. Perhaps people like Boga, Musonda and Baker needed to cost 10 million pounds each to be afforded the same opportunities.

I don't even know which club Nat is at right now.

You're misdirecting the 'bad results' thing ... regular members here know I've defended Mourinho more than most, so for me the criticism in regards to lack of youth integration is solely that, not linked to anything else.

Nat should of been sold this season, same with a few of our other loanees (that have no future at the club).

I don't get why we keep them so long and make them go out on 4, 5, 6 different loan spells. Just sell them with a decent buyback clause (like what Barca and a number of Italian clubs do)

[nullabletype 987]

... Because he is the current manager? Why would he not be criticised? The problem with the 'stability and pressure' argument cop-out is that the goal posts keep getting shifted. 'AVB and Robbie didn't have enough time'. Others like Mourinho 'were under pressure'. There will always be excuses and at the end of the day everything but the lack of the managers' willingness will be blamed. It really isn't that hard to give someone say 700 minutes of football over 10 months. After all we've been happy enough to waste time with dross like Marin, Cuadrado, Benayoun, Torres, etc. Perhaps people like Boga, Musonda and Baker needed to cost 10 million pounds each to be afforded the same opportunities.

How's it a cop out? Nobody is moving goalposts in order to mount a defence, they're being realistic.

Carlo gave a few opportunities, where are they now? Even at that, he had a short spell and no real time to set anything in motion.

AvB and Bobby D didn't have time. You're expecting guys coming in to a job knowing they could be out in a year -- who as fate would have it were! -- to start worrying about which academy kids they can bring through. It would be different if this were a club where every manager was at least guaranteed a few seasons, but it's not. So what do you genuinely expect them to do?

Rafa knew he was out in a year, he took the job to pad out his CV. Why would he be worrying about kids?

Mourinho comes back and is only now our longest serving manager since eh... Mourinho. This is why plenty on here are saying to wait until he's actually spent a reasonably long time -- in Chelsea terms -- at the helm. Then, if nobody has come through, whine all you want. But your nuts to expect anybody to come through during what is effectively, at this club, the bedding in period.

As for persisting with duds. Sorry, but these players have usually been proven elsewhere. Some don't make it, but they are the exception not the rule. Plus, they've usually been purchased with the expectation on the manager that they will play, particularly when the club has spent good money on them. Even at that, 2 of the 4 players you mention met the fate of the youth players you speak of and a 3rd is looking likely to go that way too.

No, no, no.

This is Mourinho speaking in July 2013 about Chalobah :

I don't even know which club Nat is at right now.

Precisely, you don't know where he is. So what does that tell you? Is it Mourinho's fault, or could it be that he hasn't performed well enough in his loan spells to warrant a place in a top premier league club?

This is the point. As soon as a youth player doesn't make it, manager X is to blame. But these are kids supposedly on the verge of pushing in to Chelsea's first team and yet on loans they struggle to hold places down at Championship level.

Could it be that they just aren't good enough?

[Roquila 1,335]

Come on you ol' dirty badmouth wenger hating cunt, prove us all wrong and do a masterstroke!

[Styles 9,790]

I hope he has the wrong number for Pogba. No thanks.

[Unionjack 7,531]

Nat should of been sold this season, same with a few of our other loanees (that have no future at the club).

I don't get why we keep them so long and make them go out on 4, 5, 6 different loan spells. Just sell them with a decent buyback clause (like what Barca and a number of Italian clubs do)

Because theyre HOPING that they WILL prove themselves to be as good as theyve been hyped. They hope that they will catch the medias eye and other clubs to build up their profiles. AND THEIR PRICES.

[didierforever 7,349]

Come on you ol' dirty badmouth wenger hating cunt, prove us all wrong and do a masterstroke!

? about? context?

[Reddish-Blue 2,345]

How's it a cop out? Nobody is moving goalposts in order to mount a defence, they're being realistic.

Carlo gave a few opportunities, where are they now? Even at that, he had a short spell and no real time to set anything in motion.

AvB and Bobby D didn't have time. You're expecting guys coming in to a job knowing they could be out in a year -- who as fate would have it were! -- to start worrying about which academy kids they can bring through. It would be different if this were a club where every manager was at least guaranteed a few seasons, but it's not. So what do you genuinely expect them to do?

Rafa knew he was out in a year, he took the job to pad out his CV. Why would he be worrying about kids?

Mourinho comes back and is only now our longest serving manager since eh... Mourinho. This is why plenty on here are saying to wait until he's actually spent a reasonably long time -- in Chelsea terms -- at the helm. Then, if nobody has come through, whine all you want. But your nuts to expect anybody to come through during what is effectively, at this club, the bedding in period.

As for persisting with duds. Sorry, but these players have usually been proven elsewhere. Some don't make it, but they are the exception not the rule. Plus, they've usually been purchased with the expectation on the manager that they will play, particularly when the club has spent good money on them. Even at that, 2 of the 4 players you mention met the fate of the youth players you speak of and a 3rd is looking likely to go that way too.

Precisely, you don't know where he is. So what does that tell you? Is it Mourinho's fault, or could it be that he hasn't performed well enough in his loan spells to warrant a place in a top premier league club?

This is the point. As soon as a youth player doesn't make it, manager X is to blame. But these are kids supposedly on the verge of pushing in to Chelsea's first team and yet on loans they struggle to hold places down at Championship level.

Could it be that they just aren't good enough?

You make it sound like it's easy for a young player to keep changing clubs every season.

Chalobah was highly touted, he impressed on loan at Watford in the 12/13 season and they wanted him back the following season...but instead of giving him consistent football with players that he had developed decent chemistry with, we send him on loan to Nottingham Forest, where the manager preferred senior players and suddenly all that hard work he did at Watford was gone.

You can blame the player all you want but part of the problem is also finding a good loan destination for the youngster.

[blues.bridge 343]

until mou will be on the bench there is no chance for the young of accademy

[xPetrCechx 13,563]

Q1: "Are you planning long term now, because so far your career has been little patches of 3 years, success, move on?" Jose: "Yes" #CFC (BT)

Mourinho: "Yes, I'm now ready for it [long term]. Maybe it was something 10 years ago I don't want that for my career" #CFC (BT)

Mourinho: Earlier I wanted to move, wanted to try different experiences, wanted to win in different countries, making a better manager. #CFC

Mourinho: "In this moment of my career, I also want to try that stabiity and now I'm going to the 3rd season at #CFC & I'm more than happy"

Mourinho: "I'm more than happy with the profile of job I have now [at #CFC]" (BT)

Mourinho: "What matters is owner & board know I want to stay. They know no other club in this moment of my career would take me out of #CFC

Mourinho: "In this moment, I didn't even need a contract because I know what the club feel, the club knows what I'm feeling." #CFC (BT)

Mourinho: "Even without a [written] contract, I'm here to stay" #CFC (BT)

[Roquila 1,335]

? about? context?

The whole season.

[nullabletype 987]

You make it sound like it's easy for a young player to keep changing clubs every season.

Chalobah was highly touted, he impressed on loan at Watford in the 12/13 season and they wanted him back the following season...but instead of giving him consistent football with players that he had developed decent chemistry with, we send him on loan to Nottingham Forest, where the manager preferred senior players and suddenly all that hard work he did at Watford was gone.

You can blame the player all you want but part of the problem is also finding a good loan destination for the youngster.

I'm not suggesting it's easy at all, but how many kids have we sent on loan and to how many different clubs? Still, virtually none have made it. Are all those loan destinations not good enough? Wouldn't you expect even a few of those players to flourish if they had the requisite quality?

This club constantly comes under scrutiny for not giving our youth a chance, and of course, the manager has the finger pointed at him. But if these kids are supposedly good enough to be pushing in to our first team squad over the next few years then they should be able to stake a claim in the starting XI at the lower end of the Premier League or in the Championship. Yet, year after year, we loan them out and very few can hold down a place.

Now when that happens, it's not just Mourinho who seemingly doesn't fancy them, it's also their loan club managers who are supposed to directly benefit form having a Chelsea quality youngster. So if they aren't good enough for them, how are they good enough for us?

We play or have bought plenty of young guys. Hazard, Oscar, Zouma and just recently this guy Baba.

It's a myth that Jose doesn't trust the young. He doesn't trust the low quality.

It would be excellent if our academy produced more players, but we can only train them and give them the best facilities. The rest is up to them. If they were the quality of the young guys I listed above they would get a shot. It just happens to be that most of the time they're not, and their careers after us usually prove that to be correct.

[Madmax 9,219]

How's it a cop out? Nobody is moving goalposts in order to mount a defence, they're being realistic.

Carlo gave a few opportunities, where are they now? Even at that, he had a short spell and no real time to set anything in motion.

AvB and Bobby D didn't have time. You're expecting guys coming in to a job knowing they could be out in a year -- who as fate would have it were! -- to start worrying about which academy kids they can bring through. It would be different if this were a club where every manager was at least guaranteed a few seasons, but it's not. So what do you genuinely expect them to do?

Rafa knew he was out in a year, he took the job to pad out his CV. Why would he be worrying about kids?

Mourinho comes back and is only now our longest serving manager since eh... Mourinho. This is why plenty on here are saying to wait until he's actually spent a reasonably long time -- in Chelsea terms -- at the helm. Then, if nobody has come through, whine all you want. But your nuts to expect anybody to come through during what is effectively, at this club, the bedding in period.

As for persisting with duds. Sorry, but these players have usually been proven elsewhere. Some don't make it, but they are the exception not the rule. Plus, they've usually been purchased with the expectation on the manager that they will play, particularly when the club has spent good money on them. Even at that, 2 of the 4 players you mention met the fate of the youth players you speak of and a 3rd is looking likely to go that way too.

Bruma is at PSV, Kakuta at Sevilla, Pva at Sunderland, Bertrand at Southampton ...

2 years is a reasonably long time in Chelsea terms, lol. Long enough to not make it sound like giving a 20 year old 10 games a season is the hardest, most unprecedented, most risk-ridden thing in the world.

Precisely, these Bakers and Bogas do need to cost 'good money' and not merely developmental compensation for them to get a chance, it seems.

Precisely, you don't know where he is. So what does that tell you? Is it Mourinho's fault, or could it be that he hasn't performed well enough in his loan spells to warrant a place in a top premier league club?

This is the point. As soon as a youth player doesn't make it, manager X is to blame. But these are kids supposedly on the verge of pushing in to Chelsea's first team and yet on loans they struggle to hold places down at Championship level.

Could it be that they just aren't good enough?

Or ... or maybe the man who said he was ''ready'' 2 seasons ago messed up by subjecting him to the vagaries of the loan system one too many times? Ideally loan deals would be used as a finishing school, to add some game time under the belt before assimilating them on a successful spell. Instead we just keep sending them out to this, that and the other, expecting them to set the world alight at every stage. You're willing to explain away those poor first team players as 'some make it, some don't' but paint everyone we failed to integrate as 'just not good enough'? Okay.

Honestly, we're at an impasse and there's no point repeating these things. The same arguments from both sides in my five years on this forum.

[Thendo 1,088]

This I definitely agree with, especially about the 'favourites'.

But what I think irks most people on here I think is that, if those managers hadn't been fired then we'd have seen them breakthrough. But with Mourinho, even if he's here for as long as we say, there's still a lack of confidence in his ability to bring through young players. Ancelotti and Rafa (to a lesser extent), gave more exposure to these kids in their time than Mourinho has done in the same number of seasons.

What's also more annoying is when he talks in so much depth about them, but when push comes to shove he's seldom giving them opportunities. Again I bring it back to last season in the dead rubber game when everyone was relying on Mou's promise to give Loftus-Cheek minutes. The media went crazy, some even did some in depth articles on RLC's rise(!). But what happens? 6-7 minutes.

This season will be telling. Loftus-Cheek needs to be given some more meaningful minutes, not just 5 minutes from the final whistle to waste him.

I agree with the point that Mourinho should do more to promote the youth and I was just as annoyed as everyone else when he hyped it up as the "academy day" etc and only played RLC a couple of minutes at the end. He has to actually trust them even if they don't impress in the "first 10 minutes". I think and hope that RLC will get that chance this season, but in the end even if he doesn't, I think it would be mad if people talked about replacing José, one of the best managers in the world (if not the best), solely on that reason, as some already are...