The Mourinho Thread

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 17/12/2014 at 15:48, The Skipper said:

So you honestly think playing RLC or Boga would severely damage our likelihood of winning against a team like Derby? Incredible.

You're telling me that Boga definitely can't put in a better performance than the one Schurrle gave us yesterday? Incredible yet again.

Well here's where the discussion ends then. You clearly think that someone like Boga or RLC aren't anywhere near quality enough to even contribute to the team in any sort of game we'll play this season, whilst I think that is absolute rubbish and that they are definitely more than talented enough to do exactly that. Each to their own though I guess. We'll agree to disagree.

PS - I have never really counted Zouma as a youngster. He was bought for £12m.

A price tag doesn't take away the raw inconsistency off a youngster.

Despite them costing Jose deserves credit for integrating Mikel and Varane when they were teenagers, after all, how many times did we see Lukaku under AVB?

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 18/12/2014 at 17:03, killer1257 said:

Yeah,but loaning out a player is not the greatest way to develop one player.

Firstly,the loaned out player has a complete new environment,which means he needs time to adapt to that new feeling.

Secondly,the club,which loaned out the player,does not have to play him.This club could have loaned him out for the "worst case scenario",which is that all other squad members are injured,so just give the loanee a chance.

Thirdly,language can also be an issue because Kalas for example can´t speak the german language,so for him it is difficult to get some minutes.It is crucial that the centre backs can understand each other during the match,so communication during the match is very important.Otherwise,they will concede stupid goals.

The loan system separates the men from the boys.

Fergie was widely praised for sticking Welbeck and Cleverly in the side in 2011, but what people tend to forget is that they got their chance due to impressive loan spells in the PL. Simarly Sturridge got a chance under AVB due to impressive displays at Bolton, even Wilshere had to go down the loan route to break into Arsenal's side, as will 95 percent of youngster's.

Youngsters are well aware of the task off breaking into our first team because despite our underwhelming youth record player's from home and abroad keep on putting pen to paper, they know what they are signing up for.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 18/12/2014 at 17:38, Strike said:

Yes. Zouma's integration has been handled brilliantly. But note he's the 3rd choice CB. In the same way, i think it's possible to have a couple of other players, like Boga for example in Salah's place.

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right?

It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want.

And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

  On 18/12/2014 at 17:39, The Skipper said:

Barbara, my point doesn't extend to just recent games where we haven't been on fire. It's in regards to pretty much what we've been doing the whole season. I have no idea where you're getting this notion that because we're not on fire, we should throw in the kids. I'm not saying that at all. That would be stupid.

What I am saying is in competitions like the COC, or like that dead rubber game against Sporting that meant nothing at all, we should be looking to integrate our young talents more than we have - so they can start buying into the team and Mourinho's philosophy, ethics and culture - so that they show everyone in the academy that there is a pathway from the academy to the first team. Like I said before, a lot of people don't have a problem with this facet of Mourinho's management, and Jose himself doesn't seem to put it as one of his priorities either - and that's my only real problem with him and others. I'm not questioning other facets of his management. You don't need to bring that to the table. I'm not attacking Mourinho as a manager.

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart.

But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again.

I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo.

As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

  On 18/12/2014 at 17:44, didierforever said:

we have not?

bolton - ake, zouma

shrewsbury - ake, zouma, chirstensen

derby - zouma.

jose has done EXACTLY that thing.

It doesn't count, mate. Among other things because Zouma isn't a Chelsea academy product. He's not even a youngster anymore, despite being 19 and having plenty of room of development, being even raw in some aspects of his game. But, hey, he has a 12m pounds fee. That's what decides the age and development of a player around here, it seems.

I'm so sorry, but that argument was one of the most stupid I've ever read here and I'm disappointed by it.

  On 18/12/2014 at 17:54, Robguima said:

Agreed. I, for one, never associated Jose Mourinho with developing players - quite on the contrary.

The big question, for me, would be whether developing youngsters is part of his requirements as a manager - did Abramovich actually tell him to work on that as well?

The starting line up against Derby was nothing short of ridiculous... Not even fringe players managed to get a start...

wow... I'm definitely out of here.

[Muzchap 8,966]

  On 18/12/2014 at 22:39, Barbara said:

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right?

It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want.

And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart.

But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again.

I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo.

As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

It doesn't count, mate. Among other things because Zouma isn't a Chelsea academy product. He's not even a youngster anymore, despite being 19 and having plenty of room of development, being even raw in some aspects of his game. But, hey, he has a 12m pounds fee. That's what decides the age and development of a player around here, it seems.

I'm so sorry, but that argument was one of the most stupid I've ever read here and I'm disappointed by it.

wow... I'm definitely out of here.

Hold the door for me

I just don't get this obsession - we are having the best season in a long while and yet we're still not happy?

Just what does it take for some people to be fucking cheerful. It's Xmas too, unbelievable.

Not 1 Chelsea fan has disagreed that we would love the youngsters to play, but we know it needs to happen when the time is right. The argument is that it's not happening quick enough?

I'm pretty sure chemistry, balance of the team, predictability etc has all been mentioned - so have nothing left to offer.

I hope Santa brings you all some Christmas cheer

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 18/12/2014 at 22:39, Barbara said:

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right? It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want. And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

I actually agree with Strike there. I do think Salah's role in the squad could be given to someone like Boga and would be more beneficial for us in the long term as well. Boga is more naturally talented in my books. Yeah, Salah hasn't had plentiful of game time, but I would rather have Boga have those minutes tbh. Didn't even want us to sign Mo to begin with.

  On 18/12/2014 at 22:39, Barbara said:

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart. But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again. I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Of course it's not as naive as thinking that everyone will be satisfied with just that. As long as there is evidence of a clear pathway being constructed from the academy to the first team, I would be happy. It would start by playing them in games we can afford to play them in, surrounding them with senior stars, and seeing who actually has the ability to stick around the first team and contribute from then onwards.

  Quote

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo. As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

What I meant to say is that Zouma shouldn't be treated as an academy product. Aké is just about an academy product for me but it wasn't Jose that gave him his first break here. I consider Nathan and Zouma as squad players already - sure they need the further development and stuff but they were already pretty much part of the first team - Nathan when Mourinho came here, Zouma because he was bought for the squad - even though he is a young player, that was clear for me from the start. Kurt wasn't bought for the academy or the reserves.

I agree with you though, the discussion does seem to be getting a bit tedious now. I won't really change my mind on the lack of youth integration so far this season and I know some others won't change their opinions either, but both sides in my opinion have valid arguments.

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 18/12/2014 at 22:55, Muzchap said:

Hold the door for me

I just don't get this obsession - we are having the best season in a long while and yet we're still not happy?

Just what does it take for some people to be fucking cheerful. It's Xmas too, unbelievable.

Who said that because I have a problem with the youth integration that I'm not happy? As I said earlier, I'm very happy with a lot of things Mourinho has done this season, the only thing I think he could improve on is the youth integration. Just because I think that's what he can improve on doesn't mean I'm unhappy about things in general. I'm very happy with how this season has gone.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

What's topic we're discussing today? I'm so excited

Ah, still the same topic as 2 days ago...

[stroey 2,525]

Managing a club is like managing a business: you set major goals and after that you have secondary, tertiary goals etc.
For the club, winning trophies are major goals and we should complete as many sub targets as possible to support that. Integrating/giving minutes to youth players belongs to secondary/tertiary goals and should only be completed when the situation allows it.

We need to win trophies because we are a big club, and Mou needs to win trophies to remain at Chelsea (we all know Abramovic), losing Mourinho would derail the whole project and we would have to start all over again which is bad for the stability of the club.

At the start of the season the squad was formed (including some youngsters), and for that reason the squad players are above the U21 players unless you've situations like KDB (pushing to leave in Jan). Keeping the squad happy and (match) fit is one of the most important and difficult sub-targets you should accomplish to support your major goal: winning trophies.

Mou used the Sporting game to complete sub-targets to support his main goal: winning trophies:

- Giving Diego a game instead of Solanke, because Diego was desperately looking to score again.
- Giving time to Salah, Ramires Mikel and Schurrle to let them be as fit as possible because we will need them in the busy Christmas-January period.
- Mou gave RLC his debut because the situation allowed it, we could rest key players (Wil, Hazard, Courtois, JT) by playing him and give the kid a fantastic experience.
(and probably promote the club a little bit)

For the Derby game, Mou again looked at the situation:

Would it be more profitable for the season and the major goal (winning trophies) to give Boga, Baker, RLC game time who won't contribute to the rest of the season, or give game time to important squad players to prepare them for the busy Christmas-January Period? Easy decision.

For the major goal (winning trophies): We needed to play a strong side against Derby, as that has the biggest chance of going through the next round. And after this we should complete some sub targets which supports this major goal in the long term.

sub targets:
- Ramires needed match fitness for the coming period, so Mou played him in the final part of the game instead of randomly playing a youth player.
- Schurrle was back from illness and we need him in top top condition for the Christmas period, so that's why he played instead of a youth player.
- Playing Mikel with Matic in the pivot and Cesc at 10, to create understanding for the rest of the season, and test this set up as Mou will probably play something like this in big games.
- Resting key players. (Iva, Oscar, Cahill)

Besides this, Mou actually has already integrated two young players in the squad this season: Ake and Zouma, both played more than Salah. So I'm more than fine with that. Christensen, Solanke and RLC also made their debuts. You can't just play youth players just to play them, the situation has to allow it and it has to be profitable for your major goals during the season.

[Amblève. 4,995]

  On 18/12/2014 at 00:11, lionsden said:

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2014/12/17/7408429/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumor-lovre-kalinic-tino-sven-susic

This right here is example of why no youth will ever break through at Chelsea. We had rather buy exceedingly average squad fillers like salah and Susic to eat up the minute and squad space that should be reserved for our most promising youths and loaned players and then wonder why we have such a terrible record.

Tino-Sven fucking Susic?! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?! @ will have a field day when he finds out about this...

[Strike 7,314]

  On 18/12/2014 at 22:39, Barbara said:

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right?

It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want.

And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

Yes. Boga.

To each to their own I guess and I was talking about promoting youth (Atsu at this point last year) instead of going out and buying Salah as 6th choice AM

Some prefer a stacked squad I guess but I think it's entirely possible to have youth integration without derailing season objectives. And 18-20 year olds get playing time all over Europe. I don't know why you're making it out like it's too early. Youngsters everywhere get a look in at 18-19 before establishing themselves by 20-22. There are so many examples of this working out well. I don't buy your argument that it's too early for them, not at all

[Strike 7,314]

i'll leave this here. Ake has played a fair bit for Chelsea since Benitez played him in the Europa League in 2012. Zouma was a regular at St Ettienne. So those two are trusted and I think they are more or less squad players than academy youngsters.

I'm talking about introducing Academy products like Baker RLC Boga in the earlier rounds of the League Cup - and the Sporting Lisbon game. So far only Christensen has got the chance. I credit Mourinho for going with Christensen against Shrewsbury and hope to see more of the same.

[J.F. 1,484]

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

  On 19/12/2014 at 06:16, J.F. said:

Didn't recognize him at first.

All that hairs

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 19/12/2014 at 06:16, J.F. said:

Has to be photo-shopped. He HATES kids!

[killer1257 3,282]

  On 19/12/2014 at 01:56, stroey said:

Managing a club is like managing a business: you set major goals and after that you have secondary, tertiary goals etc.

For the club, winning trophies are major goals and we should complete as many sub targets as possible to support that. Integrating/giving minutes to youth players belongs to secondary/tertiary goals and should only be completed when the situation allows it.

We need to win trophies because we are a big club, and Mou needs to win trophies to remain at Chelsea (we all know Abramovic), losing Mourinho would derail the whole project and we would have to start all over again which is bad for the stability of the club.

At the start of the season the squad was formed (including some youngsters), and for that reason the squad players are above the U21 players unless you've situations like KDB (pushing to leave in Jan). Keeping the squad happy and (match) fit is one of the most important and difficult sub-targets you should accomplish to support your major goal: winning trophies.

Mou used the Sporting game to complete sub-targets to support his main goal: winning trophies:

- Giving Diego a game instead of Solanke, because Diego was desperately looking to score again.

- Giving time to Salah, Ramires Mikel and Schurrle to let them be as fit as possible because we will need them in the busy Christmas-January period.

- Mou gave RLC his debut because the situation allowed it, we could rest key players (Wil, Hazard, Courtois, JT) by playing him and give the kid a fantastic experience.

(and probably promote the club a little bit)

For the Derby game, Mou again looked at the situation:

Would it be more profitable for the season and the major goal (winning trophies) to give Boga, Baker, RLC game time who won't contribute to the rest of the season, or give game time to important squad players to prepare them for the busy Christmas-January Period? Easy decision.

For the major goal (winning trophies): We needed to play a strong side against Derby, as that has the biggest chance of going through the next round. And after this we should complete some sub targets which supports this major goal in the long term.

sub targets:

- Ramires needed match fitness for the coming period, so Mou played him in the final part of the game instead of randomly playing a youth player.

- Schurrle was back from illness and we need him in top top condition for the Christmas period, so that's why he played instead of a youth player.

- Playing Mikel with Matic in the pivot and Cesc at 10, to create understanding for the rest of the season, and test this set up as Mou will probably play something like this in big games.

- Resting key players. (Iva, Oscar, Cahill)

Besides this, Mou actually has already integrated two young players in the squad this season: Ake and Zouma, both played more than Salah. So I'm more than fine with that. Christensen, Solanke and RLC also made their debuts. You can't just play youth players just to play them, the situation has to allow it and it has to be profitable for your major goals during the season.

The thing about businesses is that most companies just think about the short term results,while they completely ignore the long term consequences of their actions.If we really want to compete with the big clubs,we need to have a good youth system but a good youth system means nothing if we just ignore them.We do not have a big stadium,which gives us more money.We do not sell the most jerseys in PL.It is always United.It would be so great if we could produce big talents like other clubs and give them their chance to shine because that much more beneficial for the club because the club does not have to buy a player for 50 million pounds instead.Why did we buy Salah?Did we buy Salah for 5 games ?Really?10 millions for 5 games in a season?Was Boga not enough?

It is not that hard to just rest Matic one game more and give RLC a chance instead.If Matic gets an injury,we are fucked.

After one or two years,Terry will not be in the starting line up and we will not have one former academy player in our starting line up because we do not give our talents a chance.In my opinion,a starting line up without a former academy player is just pathetic display,sorry.It is ridiculous.

We will have no former academy player in our starting line up,if we will go this path we are going right now.That is something that most people criticize about Chelsea.They say that there is a lack of identification in our club,which is in some ways true.

[the wes 7,212]

Jose Mourinho surpassed the 400-point mark as a Premier League manager last weekend and in doing so became the quickest to reach this tally (174 games - 17 quicker than Sir Alex Ferguson).

[xPetrCechx 13,565]

  On 19/12/2014 at 10:36, the wes said:

Jose Mourinho surpassed the 400-point mark as a Premier League manager last weekend and in doing so became the quickest to reach this tally (174 games - 17 quicker than Sir Alex Ferguson).

BUT mou has a better squad.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 19/12/2014 at 01:07, The Skipper said:

What I meant to say is that Zouma shouldn't be treated as an academy product. Aké is just about an academy product for me but it wasn't Jose that gave him his first break here. I consider Nathan and Zouma as squad players already - sure they need the further development and stuff but they were already pretty much part of the first team - Nathan when Mourinho came here, Zouma because he was bought for the squad - even though he is a young player, that was clear for me from the start. Kurt wasn't bought for the academy or the reserves.

I agree with you though, the discussion does seem to be getting a bit tedious now. I won't really change my mind on the lack of youth integration so far this season and I know some others won't change their opinions either, but both sides in my opinion have valid arguments.

but normally the argument is that Mourinho doesn't develop players. I read this here many times to know most of the people 'against him' in this discussion feel like that. Many of them wrote it with their own fingers.

I think the way he's handling Zouma is brilliant - Strike agreed with me, don't know if for real or if he was being sarcastic (never know with written communication).

I understand now better what you meant - which is a relief - because I was like, 'this can't have been written by Thomas, just can't'.

So let's call him - and Aké - first team members. Still Mourinho was giving enough chances for Aké earlier the season (am I confused or he even played in the league? Or was it UCL?) and every chance he has to give a rest to either Terry or Cahill, he's been deploying Zouma. I think that's developing both players and at the end of the day, that's what matters right? That the young players (in age and in development) receive chances and are developed. Last season van Ginkel was very unlucky, I reckon he would have received even more chances than Zouma and Aké, although he's not that young anymore.

I don't know why Salah himself hasn't been receiving a lot of chances and I even agree with you - and others - that I'd rather have one of the kids instead of him in the first team, but not Boga. I think some of the kids have been working hard for longer and I know pecking order shouldn't consider only this, but you guys maybe have never managed a team of people (I have for years). Sometimes you have to base your decisions based on what preserves the good environment. I'm very excited about Boga, VERY, but maybe it wasn't his turn this season yet ahead of others.

Again, I understand where you guys are coming from, I just don't get the rush and the idea that José will never give them a proper chance. I think it's too early to have this predicament. The kids have time (most of them are 18 and 19) and Mourinho has time too.

I deeply disagree with the argument some around here have that every season is crucial. This season the first team and Mourinho have a lot of pressure because neither have won anything in a long time. Do you think Arsenal have more pressure on them to win this year than last after 8 years without wining any title? The pressure to retain isn't the same as the pressure to break a trophyless period. Actually, many teams have hangovers after they win an important title. Until the next champion is crowded, they're still the champions in the following season. So yeah, I feel like this team (the first team) needs a lot of work in their attitude, they should be played the most possible (but also avoid exhaustion) because if the first team isn't ready, how can it have youngsters integrated? I'm not saying Ruben would have compromised against Sporting. He doesn't even play in a position he would have compromised, I just meant the first team players NEEDED to win that match convincingly. Mourinho needs to start recovering Schurrle's form because he's very useful for us and we are an injury away from having an AM problem if he isn't fit. If we move Cesc to #10 and Oscar or Willian to the wing, we create a problem in our pivot and we all saw how much we lacked wherever Mikel played for us. Bad timing, which sucks for the kids, but the Sporting match was something the first team players needed.