Winning the Premier League = being the best out of a very average bunch of teams?

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I posted this elsewhere, but am I the only person having difficulties using this site lately?

[Tomo 21,733]

Although I don't agree with Styles initial point of winning the PL won't be as much of an achievement as we think, he has a point about the quality,not just with the top teams being not as good as before but the teams from 8-9 down are pretty rubbish if we are being truthful.

I don't watch the lower teams in La Liga very much but when I do while the players may not be the best players around most of them can get the basics right, some of the player's in the bottom half of the PL are complete clowns who can't control a ball properly.

When I watch the likes of Sunderland, West Brom and the teams down there, they can all to a point organise well off the ball, but when it comes to going forward and making thing's happen, the lack of quality is almost painful to watch.

Although it can't help the fact that manager's who simply aren't good enough to be PL manager's like Alan Irvine and Tim Sherwood keep getting jobs.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

The premier league bottom half of the table is better than all other leagues bottom half. But the premier League top 6 teams are not on the same level with Spain. (Yes Sevilla and valencia will beat this arsenal and manutd I'm seeing.) we'll come third/fourth in laliga and 2nd in germany.

The problem is the system of play and the type of players, we've been left behind.

From 2000 - 2004 you could get by playing with a flat 4-4-2 with Lennon on the flanks crossing and leave all that space in the midfield.

But Mourinho came in and dominated with 3 in the middle and the epl learned and became a force in Europe from 2004-2008.

After this period, Guardiola brought a new system, which is to combine possession with incessant pressing. If you only need to press, you can get by with Antonio valencia, Lennon, young, and other players that just kick the ball and run in your team.

But now you need to press and be good on the ball. This is where we have been left behind in Europe you now need more ball players, more technicians that can press. The comparison between the technical players in the top champions League teams and the English champions League teams is like Comparing heaven with earth.

Hopefully we will have the desire to keep on developing our team further, Arsenal got away with it for years, Dortmund didnt and are paying for it now. That's what will happen to us the day we think we have it all.

[DYC. 7,542]

Although I don't agree with Styles initial point of winning the PL won't be as much of an achievement as we think, he has a point about the quality,not just with the top teams being not as good as before but the teams from 8-9 down are pretty rubbish if we are being trurhful.

I don't watch the lower teams in La Liga very much but when I do while the players may not be the best players around most of them can get the basics right, some of the player's in the bottom half of the PL are conplete clowns who can't control a ball properly.

When I watch the likes of Sunderland, West Brom and the teams down there, they can all to a point organise well off the ball, but when it comes to going forward and making thing's happen, the lack of quality is almost painful to watch.

Although it can't help the fact that manager's who simply aren't good enough to be PL manager's like Alan Irvine and Tim Sherwood getting jobs.

I completely agree with this. I find the lesser sides overrated. They work very hard in their matches against the top teams, and that helps in terms of damage control when it comes to the score line, but they're still poor. Playing against each other, I find the matches hard to bear.

And like you said, the coaching seems to be a problem as well.

[Tomo 21,733]

The premier league bottom half of the table is better than all other leagues bottom half. But the premier League top 6 teams are not on the same level with Spain. (Yes Sevilla and valencia will beat this arsenal and manutd I'm seeing.) we'll come third/fourth in laliga and 2nd in germany.

The problem is the system of play and the type of players, we've been left behind.

From 2000 - 2004 you could get by playing with a flat 4-4-2 with Lennon on the flanks crossing and leave all that space in the midfield.

But Mourinho came in and dominated with 3 in the middle and the epl learned and became a force in Europe from 2004-2008.

After this period, Guardiola brought a new system, which is to combine possession with incessant pressing. If you only need to press, you can get by with Antonio valencia, Lennon, young, and other players that just kick the ball and run in your team.

But now you need to press and be good on the ball. This is where we have been left behind in Europe you now need more ball players, more technicians that can press. The comparison between the technical players in the top champions League teams and the English champions League teams is like Comparing heaven with earth.

Hopefully we will have the desire to keep on developing our team further, Arsenal got away with it for years, Dortmund didnt and are paying for it now. That's what will happen to us the day we think we have it all.

It's already happened to us, we finished 6th and our squad was in a state but somehow we pulled of Munich and speed up the rebuilding process.

If we got dumped in Europa we would probably have gone the same way as Milan.

[Tomo 21,733]

I completely agree with this. I find the lesser sides overrated. They work very hard in their matches against the top teams, and that helps in terms of damage control when it comes to the score line, but they're still poor. Playing against each other, I find the matches hard to bear.

And like you said, the coaching seems to be a problem as well.

It's absolutely dire to watch when they all face off, minimal quality and 90% off the goals coming from defensive cock ups, gets worse when you go down the divisions, some of the cock ups in league two wouldn't look out of place on tvs naughtiest blunders.

[didierforever 7,349]

We too are not as good as everyone thinks. Once you have players in your first eleven that can't pass the ball well or control the ball with a perfect first touch, you are not on barca, Madrid, and bayern level. If we aspire to reach that level, we won't accept the level of our first team quality now.

This season we should just concentrate on the league and carling cup, next season get pogba and reus so that we won't have people who can't give 5 yard passes consistently in our line-up.

exactly. there are still a lot of passengers in the team.

[DYC. 7,542]

It's already happened to us, we finished 6th and our squad was in a state but somehow we pulled of Munich and speed up the rebuilding process.

If we got dumped in Europa we would probably have gone the same way as Milan.

As long as the financial power is there, I doubt any English top side could fall like Milan. Milan have been forced to settle with bargains and free agents for years, and those players just aren't good enough. Even Juve can't compete at the top, money wise. It's weird because they used to be the financial powerhouses. Juve, Milan, Inter, Lazio, Parma. Roma and Sampdoria to a certain extent I think. Juve's deal for Buffon was one of the most expensive transfers of all time at the time. A GK of all positions.

I sometimes wonder if that could happen to the PL. Spend, spend, spend, and then just blow up. Seems highly unlikely but it was the same with the Serie A.

[Tomo 21,733]

As long as the financial power is there, I doubt any English top side could fall like Milan. Milan have been forced to settle with bargains and free agents for years, and those players just aren't good enough. Even Juve can't compete at the top, money wise. It's weird because they used to be the financial powerhouses. Juve, Milan, Inter, Lazio, Parma. Roma and Sampdoria to a certain extent I think. Juve's deal for Buffon was one of the most expensive transfers of all time at the time. A GK of all positions.

I sometimes wonder if that could happen to the PL. Spend, spend, spend, and then just blow up. Seems highly unlikely but it was the same with the Serie A.

Maybe not in the long term, but I could forsee a few years out of the CL possibly had we lost in Munich. Mainly because we signed Hazard and Oscar that summer and only just scraped back in the top 4, without them (which would have been the case if we were in Europa) chances would have been slim.

But thankfully we won in Munich so no need to go over the dreaded what ifs to much.

[dUMB 189]

The premier league bottom half of the table is better than all other leagues bottom half. But the premier League top 6 teams are not on the same level with Spain. (Yes Sevilla and valencia will beat this arsenal and manutd I'm seeing.) we'll come third/fourth in laliga and 2nd in germany.

The problem is the system of play and the type of players, we've been left behind.

From 2000 - 2004 you could get by playing with a flat 4-4-2 with Lennon on the flanks crossing and leave all that space in the midfield.

But Mourinho came in and dominated with 3 in the middle and the epl learned and became a force in Europe from 2004-2008.

After this period, Guardiola brought a new system, which is to combine possession with incessant pressing. If you only need to press, you can get by with Antonio valencia, Lennon, young, and other players that just kick the ball and run in your team.

But now you need to press and be good on the ball. This is where we have been left behind in Europe you now need more ball players, more technicians that can press. The comparison between the technical players in the top champions League teams and the English champions League teams is like Comparing heaven with earth.

Hopefully we will have the desire to keep on developing our team further, Arsenal got away with it for years, Dortmund didnt and are paying for it now. That's what will happen to us the day we think we have it all.

Exactly my thoughts, best post here

[iseah100 5,612]

Maybe not in the long term, but I could forsee a few years out of the CL possibly had we lost in Munich. Mainly because we signed Hazard and Oscar that summer and only just scraped back in the top 4, without them (which would have been the case if we were in Europa) chances would have been slim.

But thankfully we won in Munich so no need to go over the dreaded what ifs to much.

Had we not won the CL we would have been so screwed.

[Styles 9,790]

I think this is quite the overreaction, a simpleton way of thinking and even slightly alienated idea.

Championships are different in their own way. Teams approach them in different ways and some teams know how to play certain knock out competitions.

A league is competition that goes through 30+ rounds throughout a whole season - nine months of football nearly week in week out. Nothing beats that for me, imo national leagues >>> UCL. I want my team to win the league more than I want them to win Europe. We already have an UCL under our belt, it's no obsession anymore, so while it's a great achievement, it'll always give me more pleasure to know my team was better than its rivals - Arsenal, Spurs, Manchester teams and Liverpool - then beating some small and big names in Europe.

Knock-out competitions are way more unpredictable than long run competitions. A team could have a bad day, could pile up injuries, could have one individual mistake decide a whole competition and it says NOTHING about said team being worse than the other.

So this whole trendy new topic around here diminishing English teams is overreaction imo. As if Germany had 2-3 top teams. Spain has it now, but Atletico was a non-factor for many years, and RM were 7 years without going through the round of 16. In this meanwhile England had Liverpool, United and Chelsea winning titles and making finals and semifinals in other occasions.

Our smooth transition from a team with limited resources and chances to a big deal makes people think that it's easy to achieve. PSG, City, Anzhi are the norm, we're the exception that proves the rule. Money doesn't buy everything, it's not enough in sports although of course, it improves many, many things and gives a team many, many more chances. Now just because we were very smart, lucky and well managed (board and managers) in those 10 years and rose many levels, it doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do. And also people got spoiled and they want us to become the next Barça or Bayern in a handful years. Barça had it coming for too many years and Bayern worked to make it where they are for 8 years. And those were teams that were already in a very high level. Now we came basically from scratch, but people already want us to be the best thing in football since Pele... I teach five year-olds and it never ceases to impress me some of them can't even fathom what the word 'wait' means. It's like a foreign concept to them, I ask them to wait and they look back at me puzzled. It seems they aren't the only generation who doesn't know the first thing about waiting.

I'm not advocating English teams are ahead of everyone else, but dismissing and diminishing the English Premier League like some of you have been doing it's beyond pathetic imo and honestly, it sounds even stupid. I agree with someone that made a post the other day saying that English teams didn't get worse, but didn't adapt to modern football as quickly as others have. And guess what, the same way tiki-taka was the hit a few years ago, then total football, the next one is coming soon and no one knows what that will be or when it'll happen. Things in this era change way too much - maybe that's why people have such a hard time learning how to wait - and someone can come with an old-new idea tomorrow and we'll have a new winning football style replacing the current ones. Barcelona are reinventing themselves, Atletico showed how physicality can still be a winning formula, Dortmund showed total football, Bayern attacking football, RM counter-attacking football.

The fact that United is going through a deep transition after losing Fergie, that City is and has always been a hot mess taking advantage of other teams messing up, that Arsenal can't find a way to be competitive because of its outdated, stubborn manager and Liverpool lost themselves in their adoration to their own history should be taken into account. Mourinho may not be as sharp as we wanted him to be, but he's managing the best he can. We've been outplaying every other team out there in terms of business and sooner or later we'll start collecting the dividends in the trophy room as well. We're changing our profile, but the process has been slowed down because Mourinho, the club and the players have been feeling the pressure. It doesn't mean English teams are a fraud or that EPL is weak. This is a wild idea that some insist on trying to make popular around here these days. Spain 4 years ago had only Barça, Bayern have had more ups and downs than a Disney roaller-coaster and who was taking advantage of those things in those years? English clubs. Trying to see football in such a black and white way always misleads people and make they have the oddest notions. We're far away from becoming Italy 2.0 - but guess what? England, Spain, Germany and even Italy themselves have all been there and done that before. But as I said, in this postmodern world change happens way too fast so we're just witnessing things with the forward button pressed. All those big leagues have been through 'crisis' moments. Who knows? Maybe Juventus pull many shockers and win UCL. Then people will say what?

EPL may not be the very best league in the world, but it's a top 3 to say the least. Also that's a subjective matter. Some prefer a close and unpredictable league, others prefer a polarized league with a team that is probably the best in the world playing there, others prefer more clubs getting more money to have more stars in the country. So in such a subjective matter, dismissing or diminishing the league as if it was the MSL (which is a new league and also progressing quite quickly if you ask me) sounds rubbish.

[Atlas Lion 1,223]

Yes, it is.

The likes of Arsenal, City, and now Liverpool haven't adapted their playing style to the benefit of a new evolved European game. Still playing and implementing tactics that suit the premier league instead of Europe as a whole. They are great sides in the league, but their managers are either too stubborn or inexperienced to implement game strategies or different outlooks in how to ;better manage facing clubs from other countries.

In some cases, if i wasn't for our player power over the likes of AVB and DiMatteo's trust in the veterans, we wouldn't have won the CL.

Thank god we have Mourinho.

[Spike 12,049]

This thread has given me gonnorhea. Continue.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

But, but we won the CL in 2012.. when we finished 6th..

[nadavTKL 1,787]

But, but we won the CL in 2012.. when we finished 6th..

We were always the exception when people talk about the English clubs failing in Europe. That's why i don't mind that, they can keep humiliate themselves, while we win trophies and reach semi finals. I'm a Chelsea fan not a PL fan.

[Oscar 441]

People think because a shit team like sunderland can beat chelsea means the league is balanced, but in reallity, it just means that people in England tolerate parking the bus on a consistent basis and play a lot more conservatively, now because of the so called quality these lower teams have... Best teams going forward are still not in England.