No.10 Role

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them).

I concede that Mata is much more creative than Oscar, but Oscar is creative himself - just not as much as Mata.

He seemed a more balanced player than Juan before Mourinho started to work on Mata tactically. In terms of completeness I see Mata closing the gap. As well as I see Oscar in terms of stats (and even creativity), but each one will probable continue to be better than the other in what makes them so special - Mata's creativity and Oscar's being a complete player.

And I've said this before too and I will repeat. It doesn't matter. Mata is better offensively. It doesn't matter if Oscar is 16 and Mata is 30. We are not discussing age and experience, we are saying who is better right now. Maybe Oscar will refine his offensive game this year or next, it's quite possible but you keep bringing something up that nobody is discussing. If we signed a great 12 YO prospect from Latvia and played him at the #10, it wouldn't be fair to compare his production to Mata or Oscar's either because he's young and has no experience. It's just entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

@minseok Yi. Oscar never played RW. That position doesn't exist in our system and the problem with Oscar playing there is that he moved too centrally and we got all bunched up in the middle of the pitch. This wasn't a winger who stuck to the wing to create space for other players and whipped crosses in. (He had fewer crosses per game than Mata) this was a player who interchanged in the middle of the pitch. Anyway, Hazard played all his games on one side of the pitch and had many more chances created (this year and last). Also, he's played entirely in the centre of the pitch this year and has basically the same passing numbers. Oscar is a creative player, he's just not particularly creative for a #10. You don't see the vision that players like Mata, Silva, Ozil, Cazorla, etc...have. Strangely enough, Oscar was 45th in the league in key passes per game last year and the exact same 45th position again so far this year.

[Korea 734]

How do people get this stat of key pass?

Does this mean an assist or what?

Now i see what it means...

[Korea 734]

oh em gee, your just using whoscored.com as your reference to these stats.......

Stats are cool, however, big pictures there are many factors that you missed.

1. Hazard has suckass

2. Mourinho as our manager, whose tactics are a bit defensive.

3. Oscar has to run around and we pretty much play 4-3-3 this season (even though on paper its 4-2-3-1).

[Barbara 15,149]

And I've said this before too and I will repeat. It doesn't matter. Mata is better offensively. It doesn't matter if Oscar is 16 and Mata is 30. We are not discussing age and experience, we are saying who is better right now. Maybe Oscar will refine his offensive game this year or next, it's quite possible but you keep bringing something up that nobody is discussing. If we signed a great 12 YO prospect from Latvia and played him at the #10, it wouldn't be fair to compare his production to Mata or Oscar's either because he's young and has no experience. It's just entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

@minseok Yi. Oscar never played RW. That position doesn't exist in our system and the problem with Oscar playing there is that he moved too centrally and we got all bunched up in the middle of the pitch. This wasn't a winger who stuck to the wing to create space for other players and whipped crosses in. (He had fewer crosses per game than Mata) this was a player who interchanged in the middle of the pitch. Anyway, Hazard played all his games on one side of the pitch and had many more chances created (this year and last). Also, he's played entirely in the centre of the pitch this year and has basically the same passing numbers. Oscar is a creative player, he's just not particularly creative for a #10. You don't see the vision that players like Mata, Silva, Ozil, Cazorla, etc...have. Strangely enough, Oscar was 45th in the league in key passes per game last year and the exact same 45th position again so far this year.

did I use the age card?

I said you can't compare a player adapting to a complete different style of football especially when he's so young (which makes it more challenging, but the problem isn't the frigging age) to a player that is completely adapted. Overlooking that every south american player has to go through a huge adaptation when moving to Europe, especially England - is ignorance... maybe you guys don't have any idea of what playing in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, etc is and think that magically the player is ready to play European football. But that has been said (and seen in the pitch) so many times that it never ceases to amuse me how people just ignore it.

Did you know for example in Brazil a football match normally has 40-50 fouls and many of them reach 60-70? You know why is that? Because the smallest physical contact here is considered a foul.

Also the playing is slower, wider, the pitches are huge, players are used to have huge amount of space to play, etc... how shocking do you think it is to be playing in minimal spaces, where most physical contact is considered normal, in pitches that seem to be as big as my bedroom? How much a difference does it make or how does it affect a players ability to continue to do his thing, especially a midfielder.

So the adaptation problem detracted his stats which is why I said we should compare both this season - despite the age gap.

I mean people are becoming so blind in their standings that it seems like they don't even bother to try to read posts before jumping to conclusions.

btw Oscar was more creative, had more chances created, more vision and more attacking contribution than Mata yesterday.

But continue your ...

[meetdoscar 335]

It is not the main reason though, it is just something that is very flagarant...Mata is a better player overall, but Oscar centrally is able to make the team play better!

Oscar allows players like Lampard and Rambo to go foward and the wingers to have more freedom, all due to his amazing defensive skills and stamina. However, he also involves our attacking players way more than Mata does because he plays without the ball on his feet. And that is not counting the fact Oscar's passes are up there with Mata's and so are his long range shots.

The only major downgrade we would have with Oscar as a #10 is the flair and dribbling. But Jose doesnt really need his CAM to be someone who attacks the defenders because he will have his wingers doing it for him. So this wouldnt be too much of an issue.

For me (and even Mourinho), its not even a question who must play behind te striker. Oscar gives a balance to the midfield Mata simply doesnt (both on attack and defence)...

EDIT: That doesnt mean I dont think Mata shouldnt play. He should, just not as a CAM.

I accept that mata is a better offensive player with his creativity manifested in offense only which is not a bad thing but i disagree with you that mata is a better player overall because oscar is the better footballer for me. Oscars understanding and football intelligence is awkwardly unreal and so far this season i've seen oscar popping up as the no.9, at RW, at LW, at no. 10, at defensive midfield, and at central defense giving our team different kinds of balance without any weakness and therefore providing inconspicuous but incredible creativity and balance to the whole team, but to some this isn't creativity. Mata is gifted at what he does also but his creativity is totally in the offensive areas and mostly has to go through him directly which is a very good thing for him but not necessarily always good for the team because he isn't Messi or CR7 that we can always depend on, whereas oscar's creativity affects the entire team from defense through midfield to the striking positions and with the very creative wingers we have now (especially hazard, schurrle, mata and willian) oscar will just be the Excalibur that brings the whole team in synchronisation including mata which we saw vs steaua bucharest.

So it depends if you like an offensive player who's quality is purely offensive making him desperate for goals and assists(which is good but looks bad when that doesn't happen) that plays No. 10 and offers direct creativity by giving goals and assists and being the Key man in offense but can easily be marked out by good and physical defensive midfielders" neutralizing the team juan mata is the man and is very good value for his offensive qualities but on the other hand if you have this incredible player that is a playmaker at no. 10 but cannot be marked out by defensive midfielders(don't even bother trying) because he is so so mobile and offers both direct creativity(goals and assists) and indirect creativity by covering for other players with varying offensive attributes who also go forward to bring about even more unpredictable creativity without distorting the balance of the team (that is, bringing creativity by his capability to play different positions allowing others to be involved resulting in more unpredictable forms of creative play) and this player also scores goals and gives assists but isn't desperate to do so as he plays for the team bringing various other qualities with him, then oscar is the man.

[meetdoscar 335]

And I've said this before too and I will repeat. It doesn't matter. Mata is better offensively. It doesn't matter if Oscar is 16 and Mata is 30. We are not discussing age and experience, we are saying who is better right now. Maybe Oscar will refine his offensive game this year or next, it's quite possible but you keep bringing something up that nobody is discussing. If we signed a great 12 YO prospect from Latvia and played him at the #10, it wouldn't be fair to compare his production to Mata or Oscar's either because he's young and has no experience. It's just entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

@minseok Yi. Oscar never played RW. That position doesn't exist in our system and the problem with Oscar playing there is that he moved too centrally and we got all bunched up in the middle of the pitch. This wasn't a winger who stuck to the wing to create space for other players and whipped crosses in. (He had fewer crosses per game than Mata) this was a player who interchanged in the middle of the pitch. Anyway, Hazard played all his games on one side of the pitch and had many more chances created (this year and last). Also, he's played entirely in the centre of the pitch this year and has basically the same passing numbers. Oscar is a creative player, he's just not particularly creative for a #10. You don't see the vision that players like Mata, Silva, Ozil, Cazorla, etc...have. Strangely enough, Oscar was 45th in the league in key passes per game last year and the exact same 45th position again so far this year.

I am sorry but i am the kind of guy that watches a match and observes directly the kind of influence a player has on the pitch without counting passes. Ozil has better stats than iniesta also but he isn't even near as good as iniesta as a footballer and they both play the same positions. Same goes for mata, he has the offensive stats and is the better offensive player but Oscar is the better footballer, a more complete footballer although it isn't as black and white as that of ozil and iniesta. But if you will use stats use the ones from this season as we already know those of last season.

[Hutcho 8,443]

It is not the main reason though, it is just something that is very flagarant...Mata is a better player overall, but Oscar centrally is able to make the team play better!

Oscar allows players like Lampard and Rambo to go foward and the wingers to have more freedom, all due to his amazing defensive skills and stamina. However, he also involves our attacking players way more than Mata does because he plays without the ball on his feet. And that is not counting the fact Oscar's passes are up there with Mata's and so are his long range shots.

The only major downgrade we would have with Oscar as a #10 is the flair and dribbling. But Jose doesnt really need his CAM to be someone who attacks the defenders because he will have his wingers doing it for him. So this wouldnt be too much of an issue.

For me (and even Mourinho), its not even a question who must play behind te striker. Oscar gives a balance to the midfield Mata simply doesnt (both on attack and defence)...

EDIT: That doesnt mean I dont think Mata shouldnt play. He should, just not as a CAM.

Mata's passing and creatitvity are what make me want to put Mata over oscar in there. Mata isn't very fast, which isn't a big deal as the CAM, wheras we have 0 width with him on the right because he cuts in on his left always and hasn't really got the pace to beat them on the outside. If we were playing 4-3-3 then oscar would probably be the better more balanced player. Which is why in absense of a proper DLP. It could we worth it to try Oscar in there, as he offers more defensively and can link up centrally with Mata without meaning one of them is out of position.

I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them).

I concede that Mata is much more creative than Oscar, but Oscar is creative himself - just not as much as Mata.

He seemed a more balanced player than Juan before Mourinho started to work on Mata tactically. In terms of completeness I can see already Mata closing the gap (meaning Mourinho is making him a better player despite all the shit said about Mata being who he has always been and Mourinho just having to play him because he's Mata). As well as I see Oscar in terms of stats (and even creativity) also progressing right now, but each one will probable continue to be better than the other in what makes them so special - Mata's creativity and Oscar's being a complete player.

No one is saying that Oscar should never play there. But right now many people (me included) think that Mata is the better player in there. Next season he could well surpass mata but right now he isn't imo. If he wants that no.10 role then he can earn it. And if he does it will be great to watch.

[Barbara 15,149]

No one is saying that Oscar should never play there. But right now many people (me included) think that Mata is the better player in there. Next season he could well surpass mata but right now he isn't imo. If he wants that no.10 role then he can earn it. And if he does it will be great to watch.

you guys really make me feel self-conscious about my ability to communicate in English... where did I even say who should play there and who shouldn't? Are you sure you didn't quote the wrong person?

My only point was that comparing stats from a guy adapting to a completely different and much more demanding football to a guy that has been completely adapted already isn't fair because the former will have his stats damaged because of his adaptation issues... I didn't say Mata or Oscar should play CAM because I got over it the moment Mata started playing well again without being a liability defensively. For me now it doesn't matter as long as the two of them are there.

then my second post I exhaustively explained the same thing, being more detailed about what makes it so hard for south american to adapt in Europe and still I didn't say who should and shouldn't play there.

Also I commentated on Mata closing the gap by becoming a more complete player under the influence and management by Mourinho and said that Oscar was also closing the creativity gap, although I believe Mata will always be more creative and Oscar will always be the more complete player.

Unlike most of you I don't see this as a competition... now that Mata is not only finally performing well again, but also contributing more to the team work-rate I'm too happy to get into petty arguments about who's best because guess what? Both play for Chelsea. So in some matches one will be better than other, while in another bunch of matches it'll be the opposite.

I couldn't resist though in my last post commentating that Oscar was statistically better because well, he was... So now use that info and have a field day or lose sleep at night because of that... or you know, just ignore it.

[Rmpr 8,977]

I don't think the downgrade is in flair and dribbling. In fact, Oscar is probably better at dribbling and tries for as many flair moves as Mata. The real downgrade is creativity. Oscar's play allows Lampard and Ramires to go forward a bit more so he allows them to be better, but Mata actually makes players around him better. Oscar has 5 assists in 40 league games (and 2 of them were as a sub in that 8-0 Villa game). Mata has 13 in his last 36 games. Oscar has averaged about 1.5 key passes a game in that period, Mata about 2,7. Even without those stats, Mata just sees the pitch better and is able to spring players behind defenses. His passing numbers are better across the board. More long passes, more accurate crosses, more through balls, better passing percentage. Mata's also a better finisher right now. He's just a much better offensive player.

1) No one is arguying Mata isnt a better offensive player, but that Oscar is a better option for the team. You keep missing the point!

2) Stop posting manipulated and meaningless stats. Oscar was in his first season in Europe and playing as a winger, while Mata was the main man of Rafael Benitez.

3) It is quite clear that Schurrle-Oscar-Mata are the best trio we cab play right now, so I dont think this thread is useful anymore.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Hutcho, I dont even have to answer you because Barbara and MinSeok already did it for me...

[Hutcho 8,443]

you guys really make me feel self-conscious about my ability to communicate in English... where did I even say who should play there and who shouldn't? Are you sure you didn't quote the wrong person?

My only point was that comparing stats from a guy adapting to a completely different and much more demanding football to a guy that has been completely adapted already isn't fair because the former will have his stats damaged because of his adaptation issues... I didn't say Mata or Oscar should play CAM because I got over it the moment Mata started playing well again without being a liability defensively. For me now it doesn't matter as long as the two of them are there.

then my second post I exhaustively explained the same thing, being more detailed about what makes it so hard for south american to adapt in Europe and still I didn't say who should and shouldn't play there.

Also I commentated on Mata closing the gap by becoming a more complete player under the influence and management by Mourinho and said that Oscar was also closing the creativity gap, although I believe Mata will always be more creative and Oscar will always be the more complete player.

Unlike most of you I don't see this as a competition... now that Mata is not only finally performing well again, but also contributing more to the team work-rate I'm too happy to get into petty arguments about who's best because guess what? Both play for Chelsea. So in some matches one will be better than other, while in another bunch of matches it'll be the opposite.

I couldn't resist though in my last post commentating that Oscar was statistically better because well, he was... So now use that info and have a field day or lose sleep at night because of that... or you know, just ignore it.

I'm saying that comparing the 2 or even allowing for the fact that Oscar is younger and has a potentially higher ceiling is irrelevant. You said:

"I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them)."

To which i am saying that right now we can only go off what we know and not potential. Which is why i would play Mata over Oscar at the CAM positon. I never said you explicitly said you would pick one over the other. But that it is irrelevant right now. Oscar will get better over time and improve, as will his stats, though IMO, right now mata should be the one to play there.

We are debating this because it is a chelsea forum. Everyone is happy they both play for us. People are having a debate about who should start in the no.10 role.

Just because people say they want Mata in there doesn't mean they don't like Oscar etc or Vice-versa.

[Barbara 15,149]

I'm saying that comparing the 2 or even allowing for the fact that Oscar is younger and has a potentially higher ceiling is irrelevant. You said:

"I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them)."

To which i am saying that right now we can only go off what we know and not potential. Which is why i would play Mata over Oscar at the CAM positon. I never said you explicitly said you would pick one over the other. But that it is irrelevant right now. Oscar will get better over time and improve, as will his stats, though IMO, right now mata should be the one to play there.

We are debating this because it is a chelsea forum. Everyone is happy they both play for us. People are having a debate about who should start in the no.10 role.

Just because people say they want Mata in there doesn't mean they don't like Oscar etc or Vice-versa.

well I'm all for debate - although not interested in taking part in this particular one because it seems outdated now that Mata is in the team... they were competing for positions, now they aren't anymore as it seems Mourinho will continue to play them both...

It's the fact that your answer had no relation whatsoever with my post that makes me wonder wth you were talking about because I couldn't get how I said comparing last season's stats is unfair to warranty someone replying to me that they aren't saying Oscar should never play... it's a little bit

I didn't talk about potential either... I'm talking about present. We should compare their stats now, this season, present time, not 2, 3, 6, 10 months from now, but right now. I said both are closing gaps now, not that they will in x months or seasons from now.

The more I read my post and your answer less all of this make sense...

I guess it must be the avatar I had (me wearing a Oscar shirt) or the fave player name in my profile because I only made a comment about something I disagree that wasn't even the main point of torontochelsea's post... and then because of info in my profile I guess people are assuming I was picking sides.

It's all good though, mate. I was just confused and a bit frustrated with the kind of answer I received for something I thought it was clear in my post.

But as we're in this, I think we should play 4-3-3 with Oscar behind the wingers/strikers those being Schurrle, Mata and Torres or Eto'o. In my head he wouldn't be a #10 in that position, but a joker on the team's sleeve performing on different roles during the entire match.

[Hutcho 8,443]

well I'm all for debate - although not interested in taking part in this particular one because it seems outdated now that Mata is in the team... they were competing for positions, now they aren't anymore as it seems Mourinho will continue to play them both...

It's the fact that your answer had no relation whatsoever with my post that makes me wonder wth you were talking about because I couldn't get how I said comparing last season's stats is unfair to warranty someone replying to me that they aren't saying Oscar should never play... it's a little bit

I didn't talk about potential either... I'm talking about present. We should compare their stats now, this season, present time, not 2, 3, 6, 10 months from now, but right now. I said both are closing gaps now, not that they will in x months or seasons from now.

The more I read my post and your answer less all of this make sense...

I guess it must be the avatar I had (me wearing a Oscar shirt) or the fave player name in my profile because I only made a comment about something I disagree that wasn't even the main point of torontochelsea's post... and then because of info in my profile I guess people are assuming I was picking sides.

It's all good though, mate. I was just confused and a bit frustrated with the kind of answer I received for something I thought it was clear in my post.

But as we're in this, I think we should play 4-3-3 with Oscar behind the wingers/strikers those being Schurrle, Mata and Torres or Eto'o. In my head he wouldn't be a #10 in that position, but a joker on the team's sleeve performing on different roles during the entire match.

The debate was about who should play the no.10 role, not who should play. As i think everyone would agree that they are both great players and should play in the team.

I was simply refering to your point about not comparing stats (bolded part) from last season to make my own point, which was that atm we have very little to go on from this season. To which i said "that is why i would play Mata in the No.10". That was the bit i was responding to. Because, i think Mata's performance (more so than stats) over the last 2 years are what imo should give him the no.10 spot.

After that, It was my own point that i was making, fairly unrelated to your post, it just came after i responded to your stats point. Perhaps i should have responded to you. Then added my extra input underneath to avoid the confusion.

I'll summarise my point on this matter (Again, not a direct response to you, but to make it clear).

Mata has done well in the No.10 postion for 2 years. Been our best player. I haven't seen anything to suggest a rapid decline, or a rapid increase in oscar that would warrant him playing in that central role over Mata. Though it is very forseeable that very soon Oscar may be the no.10, if he surpasses Mata, yet as of RIGHT NOW i would play Mata over Oscar in the No.10 role.

That was all.

[Barbara 15,149]

The debate was about who should play the no.10 role, not who should play. As i think everyone would agree that they are both great players and should play in the team.

I was simply refering to your point about not comparing stats (bolded part) from last season to make my own point, which was that atm we have very little to go on from this season. To which i said "that is why i would play Mata in the No.10". That was the bit i was responding to. Because, i think Mata's performance (more so than stats) over the last 2 years are what imo should give him the no.10 spot.

After that, It was my own point that i was making, fairly unrelated to your post, it just came after i responded to your stats point. Perhaps i should have responded to you. Then added my extra input underneath to avoid the confusion.

I'll summarise my point on this matter (Again, not a direct response to you, but to make it clear).

Mata has done well in the No.10 postion for 2 years. Been our best player. I haven't seen anything to suggest a rapid decline, or a rapid increase in oscar that would warrant him playing in that central role over Mata. Though it is very forseeable that very soon Oscar may be the no.10, if he surpasses Mata, yet as of RIGHT NOW i would play Mata over Oscar in the No.10 role.

That was all.

yeah, I guess I led to the confusion without realizing it. I wasn't taking part of the debate itself and I didn't make that clear, I just disagreed about a minor detail, not exactly TorontoChelsea's reasoning - or yours.

I don't even like to make players comparison to be honest... Players are normally different from one another, and in this case Oscar and Mata are very different and can contribute in very different ways which makes the comparison even harder. Even as #10 they offer two complete different end products in my opinion. One fits tight matches more imo while the other fits better counter-attack, one controls better game pace while the other controls better games period.

[Fernando 6,454]

So the debate between who is better number 10.

Well on Tuesday we saw how these two can play together.

However do you realistically see them both playing together when we play say Bayern, Real Madrid and such?

I'm not sure, and I think Mourinho will go for Oscar as his main man for such a game.

[-Kaplan- 410]

he just said in one the interviews (better check the Mourinho thread) his plan is to play the two of them together (I assume as AM's, no pivot nonsense), but that he feels Mata isn't ready to start the matches. So I think his plan is to keep Mazacar, but he won't play them until Mata is fit - which should apply to Hazard too btw as Eden has been below par - as much or even more so than Mata and that is while playing at all possible minutes except today's last five. I support Mata being benched and proving his value, but I can't understand why the same doesn't apply to Hazard - quite the opposite the more he sucks, the more he plays it seems.

The best player needs to be benched? He already adapted to Mourinho's style, that's why he started the UCL match.

I mean, come on.

[Jase 43,479]

The best player needs to be benched? He already adapted to Mourinho's style, that's why he started the UCL match.

I mean, come on.

Think you should see the date of the post. Barbara said that before Mata eventually played himself into the starting XI after 3 good performances..

[The_Flash 1,144]

I like both of them and don't like to compare would like to see both play.