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20 minutes ago, Vincent said:

I find it remarkable how the big majority of the people here think Ziyech is going to succeed at Chelsea so easily. I think he will have big problems adapting to the Premier League, although i obviously hope he does well. I've seen him so many times and am simply not convinced and yes, he did very well in the Champions League. But let's be clear, how many games have you seen him in the Champions League? We can say we're lucky that we've signed him and the competition has been asleep, but i highly doubt that. 

I mean, he was brilliant against us, Spuds, Real Madrid, Juventus and others. I don't think he'll struggle against mediocre English sides. If anything, I expect Ziyech to be even better here since he will be playing with better teammates. 

Even if he isn't scoring a lot his passing ability is light years better than Willian's is so he should be much more influential in our attack.

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2 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I mean, he was brilliant against us, Spuds, Real Madrid, Juventus and others. I don't think he'll struggle against mediocre English sides. If anything, I expect Ziyech to be even better here since he will be playing with better teammates. 

Even if he isn't scoring a lot his passing ability is light years better than Willian's is so he should be much more influential in our attack.

Think the question will be whether he can handle the physicality and intensity of the Premier League. The quality of the Champions League may be higher but some other aspects of it are different from the Premier League. If he can handle it, then his quality will shine through - e.g. Pulisic this season. 

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18 hours ago, Special Juan said:

He is Arsenal's problem, we have so many better players than him he won't be missed.

 

Who are these "so many better players than him we have"? CHO who is 19 and yet everything to prove? Ziyech, who hasn't yet played a single match in PL? 

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2 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I mean, he was brilliant against us, Spuds, Real Madrid, Juventus and others. I don't think he'll struggle against mediocre English sides. If anything, I expect Ziyech to be even better here since he will be playing with better teammates. 

Even if he isn't scoring a lot his passing ability is light years better than Willian's is so he should be much more influential in our attack.

There is something to say for the better teammates, on the other hand Ajax was in a flow that i've never seen Chelsea in. Plus for example, a striker at a topclub has less space upfront than a striker at Aston Villa. He's a very different player than Willian is, so i don't think its a fair comparison. Ziyech is more the type of player that needs space for a cross, in stead of using speed and tricks to get past defenders. 

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8 minutes ago, Vincent said:

There is something to say for the better teammates, on the other hand Ajax was in a flow that i've never seen Chelsea in. Plus for example, a striker at a topclub has less space upfront than a striker at Aston Villa. He's a very different player than Willian is, so i don't think its a fair comparison. Ziyech is more the type of player that needs space for a cross, in stead of using speed and tricks to get past defenders. 

Completely different players like you said, so it will both take some getting used to and adjustments to the team to bring the best out of Ziyech compared to Willian.

As you mentioned, Ziyech doesn't have that 5 yard burst that Willian does to shift the ball out from his feet and get a cross in, but if James is to play right back he needs to be prepared to overlap much more regularly to provide the width and give Ziyech the opportunity to either cross with his left or give to James to cross from the byline. I think having a left footer in this position provides a dual threat and will also aid James with one of his better attributes (his crossing). When Willian played there the attack could end up being one dimensional with both Willian and James looking to cross from the same spot, making it much easier to defend against. Just being able to mix up the variety of crosses between a left footer and right footer should make us harder to defend against (hopefully we'll also sort something similar for the left hand side also).

I think we do have some players also that will play to Ziyech's strengths. Giroud obviously is a huge aerial threat when he plays, but those whipped in balls to the back post could be carnage for teams trying to defend against Pulisic and Werner who both have excellent movement and could aggressively attack that space. 

I think there will be parts of Willian's game that will be missed at times next season, particularly on the defensive side and also his ability to take and carry the ball from deeper positions. However from an attacking raw numbers perspective (goals, assists, etc) I would be surprised if Ziyech over the next 2-3 seasons doesn't put up better numbers than Willian has consistently produced. 

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48 minutes ago, Jason said:

Think the question will be whether he can handle the physicality and intensity of the Premier League. The quality of the Champions League may be higher but some other aspects of it are different from the Premier League. If he can handle it, then his quality will shine through - e.g. Pulisic this season. 

Yeah, I'm not worried about that. A lot of really small, skinny wingers doing well here. It's definitely something to think about but I think he'll be fine. Pulisic, Mahrez, Sterling...the list goes on. Ziyech looks bigger than all of those.

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1 minute ago, Pizy said:

Yeah, I'm not worried about that. A lot of really small, skinny wingers doing well here. It's definitely something to think about but I think he'll be fine. Pulisic, Mahrez, Sterling...the list goes on. Ziyech looks bigger than all of those.

Would certainly hope so. Players coming to the Premier League from the Eredivisie haven't exactly done too well over the years. 

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23 minutes ago, Jason said:

Would certainly hope so. Players coming to the Premier League from the Eredivisie haven't exactly done too well over the years. 

In some cases players have perhaps made the step up a little too early, like Memphis Depay. If he'd stayed a couple more years and really established himself he probably would've done a lot better. He's shown now at Lyon that he's not a bad player and if he moved back to the PL now he'd be much more likely to succeed. 

The ones who've continuously showed their class and proven themselves to be too good for the league have generally been pretty good, not just in PL but other leagues too. The biggest flops like Vincent Janssen or Afonso Alves had just one great season in Eredivisie before their big moves so I'd put it more down to them just being one-season wonders rather than players who just couldn't deal with the Premier League level. Neither of those two have done anything significant even when moving down a few levels after their stints in the PL so they're just bad players full stop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_football_transfer_record

Looking at the top20 biggest transfers out of the Eredivisie I wouldn't really call many of them flops, apart from the three I mentioned and Davy Klaassen. Sneijder and Huntelaar were flops at Real Madrid but quality players elsewhere. Lozano hasn't really shown anything at Napoli either but I'd give him another season before making a judgment.

Ziyech has been Ajax's best player for three seasons in the row and from what I've heard he had two great years at Twente even before moving to Ajax. He's obviously way too good for the Dutch league, but it remains to be seen whether he can settle in immediately or if it will take some time before we see the best of him. I wouldn't expect any immediate fireworks from him but I don't think he will be a flop signing.

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23 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Completely different players like you said, so it will both take some getting used to and adjustments to the team to bring the best out of Ziyech compared to Willian.

As you mentioned, Ziyech doesn't have that 5 yard burst that Willian does to shift the ball out from his feet and get a cross in, but if James is to play right back he needs to be prepared to overlap much more regularly to provide the width and give Ziyech the opportunity to either cross with his left or give to James to cross from the byline. I think having a left footer in this position provides a dual threat and will also aid James with one of his better attributes (his crossing). When Willian played there the attack could end up being one dimensional with both Willian and James looking to cross from the same spot, making it much easier to defend against. Just being able to mix up the variety of crosses between a left footer and right footer should make us harder to defend against (hopefully we'll also sort something similar for the left hand side also).

I think we do have some players also that will play to Ziyech's strengths. Giroud obviously is a huge aerial threat when he plays, but those whipped in balls to the back post could be carnage for teams trying to defend against Pulisic and Werner who both have excellent movement and could aggressively attack that space. 

I think there will be parts of Willian's game that will be missed at times next season, particularly on the defensive side and also his ability to take and carry the ball from deeper positions. However from an attacking raw numbers perspective (goals, assists, etc) I would be surprised if Ziyech over the next 2-3 seasons doesn't put up better numbers than Willian has consistently produced. 

I think we agree on most things, i only mentioned Ziyech's and Wililan's qualities as a winger to show each of their players' strength lays elsewhere. And besides i'd be surprised if Ziyech puts up better numbers than Willian has produced. I even doubt if Ziyech will be continiously playing as a winger for the next 2-3 seasons. 

 

27 minutes ago, Pizy said:

Yeah, I'm not worried about that. A lot of really small, skinny wingers doing well here. It's definitely something to think about but I think he'll be fine. Pulisic, Mahrez, Sterling...the list goes on. Ziyech looks bigger than all of those.

I believe Ziyech is physically wise very average or below average, which doesn't mean he cannot succeed at Chelsea or in the Premier League though. I'd say Pulisic is physically ahead of most players, just look at his neck he could swallow Ziyech's head in a whole.

 

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Very easy to shoot down Willan now that he is leaving, despite all of the trophies he contributed to bring to us. What about our midfield btw? Completely outclassed by mid-table PL teams, not to mention Bayern Munich. Do you guys seriously believe that Jorginho and to a lower extent Kovasic are able to compete with best European teams? And what about our defense, do you really believe that James, Christensen, Rudiger, Emerson, etc. are up for the job? We need a complete overhaul, that includes mid-field and defense. It is a kind of miracle we are qualified for next CL, but if it is to be kicked-out by 7-1 again, I do no see the point. Just look at the headlines in the European media, sort of "Chelsea destroyed by Bayern Munchen"; "Chelsea humiliated again by Bayern Munchen".

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6 minutes ago, Vincent said:

I think we agree on most things, i only mentioned Ziyech's and Wililan's qualities as a winger to show each of their players' strength lays elsewhere. And besides i'd be surprised if Ziyech puts up better numbers than Willian has produced. I even doubt if Ziyech will be continiously playing as a winger for the next 2-3 seasons. 

I think it may ultimately depend on whether we buy Havertz. If Havertz joins as is strongly expected, I think he'll be the one that plays a central role in the side either as an 8 or 10 depending on how Lampard looks to set up.

I think there will be times, particularly in game, where Ziyech may adopt a different position but I believe he is being predominantly brought for the right side so that Lampard has two inverted wide players to either cut inside to shoot/attack the goal or to cross from a different position, with the natural width then to be provided by the full backs. 

Like was mentioned previously, Ziyech needs the time and space created for him because he's less likely to carry the ball in the way Willian does, but so long as we can set up to play to his strengths I believe his delivery is much more dangerous and consistently threatening than Willian. You're still relying on players getting on the end and finishing but I would be surprised if he's not racking up more assists as a result, and his set piece delivery looks an upgrade on Willian too who was far too inconsistent over the years with this.

I also think his willingness to shoot more often around the edge of the box could also prove to be a positive. It will at times I'm sure be frustrating because there will likely be times where a shot may not feel the right decision but far too often in recent years our players try to play through instead of peppering the goal from all angles to break a team down like we had in previous years. How many times did Lampard or Drogba score from outside the area to break a team's resistance? It also prevents teams from sitting too deep and drags players out to close down when there is that threat from outside the box, helping further to find and create openings and pockets of space.

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1 hour ago, BXL70 said:

Very easy to shoot down Willan now that he is leaving, despite all of the trophies he contributed to bring to us. 

I for one have been saying the exact same things about Willian since about 2017, as have many others. Not many players have divided the fan base as much as he did so it's not a case of people just deciding he's shit now that he's joining a PL rival. And I still don't think he's shit, just that he's not good enough.

And the trophy argument is just lazy. I don't remember Willian playing a vital key role in any of them. Yes he may have been a regular starter for most of his time at the club but I honestly don't think he was even in the top5 influential players for any of the trophies won during his time at the club. 

 

1 hour ago, BXL70 said:

Do you guys seriously believe that Jorginho and to a lower extent Kovasic are able to compete with best European teams? And what about our defense, do you really believe that James, Christensen, Rudiger, Emerson, etc. are up for the job? We need a complete overhaul, that includes mid-field and defense.

I don't see anyone saying the defense is good enough, quite the opposite really. Kovacic I really think is good enough and James is still young and has potential to improve a lot.

But anyway what's that got to do with Willian? None of the players you mentioned had their contract up after the season so replacing them is a lot more complicated. Many of the players on your list will most likely be replaced as soon as the club finds a buyer for them.

If guys like Emerson, Rüdiger or Christensen had expiring contracts like Willian I wouldn't want the club to extend them either because like Willian I don't think they're not good enough. Replacing everyone in one go is probably unrealistic, it's a marathon not a sprint. Got to start the overhaul somewhere though and releasing Willian is a good start. But you're right in saying much more is needed than just refreshing the attacking areas. 

 

1 hour ago, BXL70 said:

It is a kind of miracle we are qualified for next CL, but if it is to be kicked-out by 7-1 again, I do no see the point.

Money. The point is money.

Even though the squad is nowhere near good enough to actually challenge, just this season the club made more than €80M from reaching the Champions League RO16 and having that revenue is extremely vital to improving the team in the long term and making sure it's ready to compete in the future. The squad rebuild is only at the beginning so not challenging for the PL and CL titles right now is not the end of the world, of course there needs to be constant improvement or else the risk is ending up like Arsenal. 

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If you take away penalties and free kicks Willian scored only 6 goals per season for us. And he averages 48 games per season in all comps. This is 1 goal per 8 games for fucking winger?!

And even if you add free kicks it is 8 per season and 9 with penalties. Not good enough at all. And I can see him regressing big time for Arse so horrible deal for them.

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Sooo, are Kenedy and Piazon (wtf still here?) the last Brazilians left in the 'first team'? Is this Brazilian experiment over? Are we starting a German one? :D 

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