Willian

[dee25 1,044]

  On 04/12/2014 at 17:48, Barbara said:

Seriously, was I the only one seeing Willian misplacing a few (at least three) easiest ever passes? Oscar does it too, but Willian misplaces easy passes sometimes and most of the time he destroys the counter he set up by himself. He runs, dribbles, leave some opponents behind him, then he doesn't know what to do. As a consequence, normally he loses the ball, kills the counter advantage or has a bad shot.

Those are his weaknesses, I don't think it's a crime to point them out. I'm not advocating we should sign someone else or drop him, but he definitely needs competition for the position so he feels like he really needs to start offering something else. As others said, Oscar can offer what he does defensively and Cesc has been quite brilliant in that aspect lately. What we need is someone to make us more objective and deadly in front of the goal as, except for our strikers (thank God for them), no one has been really that accurate finishing for us.

I'm honestly as confused as you are because this season Willian to me has been very sloppy on the ball. I'm usually one of his biggest defenders but he's been so easy to dispossess even more so than Oscar. Last season Willian at least was an excellent dribbler, he could receive passes in tight spaces and keep possession. His passing was also very good. This season, he's been sloppy and can't beat defenders. I'm sorry I'm not going to sugar coat it but Oscar right now looks twice the player Willian does. Even his defensive contributions, how many times against Spurs did he make a tackle? Dispossess an opponent? It seems that all Willian does is run, run, and run without actually doing anything.

[The Chels 2,502]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:02, dee25 said:

I'm honestly as confused as you are because this season Willian to me has been very sloppy on the ball. I'm usually one of his biggest defenders but he's been so easily dispossessed even more so than Oscar. Last season Willian at least was an excellent dribbler, he could received passes in tight spaces and keep possession, his passing was also very good. This season, he's been sloppy. He doesn't make sharp turns and beat defenders anymore. I'm sorry I'm not going to sugar coat it but Oscar right now looks twice the player Willian does. Even his defensive contributions, how many times against Spurs did he make a tackle? Dispossess an opponent? It seems that all Willian does is run, run, and run without actually doing anything.

Willian does get dispossessed a lot but Oscar makes more unforced errors from what I've seen. Either way I don't think one player is that much better than the other, but I do agree with the last point.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 04/12/2014 at 16:31, The Chels said:

Oscar is a lot more sloppy in possession than Willian. He gives the ball away far too much by failing to execute basic passes.

There is that move he does pretty much every time he is 1v1 with a defender - move the ball a yard to his right and cross it in low at the near post. I think defenders are mostly aware of this as they're not often fooled, but it's surprising that we hardly ever capitalise on it. When Willian is in a crossing position I'm always screaming for anyone, someone to make a run to the near post because if the defender doesn't block it, that's where Willian always puts it.

A lot more is an exaggeration, it's not like comparing Oscar's ball retention skills to a Hazard or a Fabregas, which will be fair.

Thing is Oscar doesn't have the same ball control as Willian, it's not so much about execution of passes but getting dispossessed of the ball. Their pass completion rate is roughly equal (Oscar 85% Willian 86%) and Oscar is creating twice as many chances avg. 2 KP per game compared with Willian's 1 KP per game. Oscar might lose the ball easier, but he's a far more efficient player. But you're right, Oscar needs to get physically tougher and improve his ball retention skills, no doubt. He can be too sloppy for my liking.

Yeah, the Ol' Willian, stepover then push-ball-forward trick. It rarely works though as he hardly ever gets his cross in. I remember one working in the QPR match but that was more of an anomaly than a norm. He tried that with Luke Shaw vs Man United and Shaw anticipated it and snuffed it out easily. Van Gaal does his homework.. Infact, he was completely neutralized in that game by the 19 year old kid.

[Bosnian Blue 2,471]

Does he eat before a game?

Seriously, I'm a terrible goalie but even I could save his shots.

[dee25 1,044]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:08, The Chels said:

Willian does get dispossessed a lot but Oscar makes more unforced errors from what I've seen. Either way I don't think one player is that much better than the other, but I do agree with the last point.

But Oscar creates far more chances and is more heavily involved in attacks than Willian is, so that has to be taken into consideration. For example against Spurs. Willian made 1 key pass and 1 successful dribble, but he was dispossess 3 times. Oscar was dispossess twice but made 3 key passes and 2 successful dribbles....

Forget about his decision making in front of goal, we all know that's a weak area in his game but what's been surprising (to me at least) is how lacking his technical ability has been this season.

[The Chels 2,502]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:15, MrExcalibur100 said:

A lot more is an exaggeration, it's not like comparing Oscar's ball retention skills to a Hazard or a Fabregas, which will be fair.

Thing is Oscar doesn't have the same ball control as Willian, it's not so much about execution of passes but getting dispossessed of the ball. Their pass completion rate is roughly equal (Oscar 85% Willian 86%) and Oscar is creating twice as many chances avg. 2 KP per game compared with Willian's 1 KP per game. Oscar might lose the ball easier, but he's a far more efficient player. But you're right, Oscar needs to get physically tougher and improve his ball retention skills, no doubt. He can be too sloppy for my liking.

Yeah, the Ol' Willian, stepover then push-ball-forward trick. It rarely works though as he hardly ever gets his cross in. I remember one working in the QPR match but that was more of an anomaly than a norm. He tried that with Luke Shaw vs Man United and Shaw anticipated it and snuffed it out easily. Van Gaal does his homework.. Infact, he was completely neutralized in that game by the 19 year old kid.

While Willian and Oscar are the main culprits of poor ball retention (debateable as to which is worse but I accept your argument that there probably isn't much difference), Matic and Cesc also give the ball away too easily at times in my opinion, especially under pressure. And since we don't have a back up system like instant and reactive pressing, our defence is left exposed rather often. That's a separate issue altogether though but I agree with what you're saying - the last sentence pretty much sums Willian up.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:29, The Chels said:

While Willian and Oscar are the main culprits of poor ball retention (debateable as to which is worse but I accept your argument that there probably isn't much difference), Matic and Cesc also give the ball away too easily at times in my opinion, especially under pressure. And since we don't have a back up system like instant and reactive pressing, our defence is left exposed rather often. That's a separate issue altogether though but I agree with what you're saying - the last sentence pretty much sums Willian up.

At times is the key word there. Even for our best players, that can't be helped because of our style of play. It's normal and not just us. Fabregas can be guilty of that at times and that's because he's a high risk high reward type of player. His ball control isn't also in the level of a Hazard or Willian but arguably slightly above Oscar's. I'll rather Fabregas stay positive with his passing and link up play than be a negative passenger or a woeful passer. I don't think the same applies to Matic though. Guy is just a straight up monster. The only time he loses it is when he's trying to make ambitious forward passes, but that's rare. No one dares rob the ball off him or even attempts to.

At the end of the day, the reward is that we're doing fantastically well in every competition and playing beautiful football for the most part. That will definitely be a concern vs a Bayern or a Real though. We'll probably have to throw in a Ramires in against those. But we won't get hurt against the lot we're facing in the league.

[Rom2013 446]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:28, dee25 said:

But Oscar creates far more chances and is more heavily involved in attacks than Willian is, so that has to be taken into consideration. For example against Spurs. Willian made 1 key pass and 1 successful dribble, but he was dispossess 3 times. Oscar was dispossess twice but made 3 key passes and 2 successful dribbles....

Forget about his decision making in front of goal, we all know that's a weak area in his game but what's been surprising (to me at least) is how lacking his technical ability has been this season.

Anyway last season we had to put Oscar in the bench for 4 months because he couldn't do a single pass. And he is the almost the only player that don't have a direct substitute in the team. You ask for more players to fight with Willian when he already has another 2 (Salah and Schurrle), I think you can ask for a player that also plays as a number 10... because Oscar can't do it.

Ozil is really bad... last season he did 9 assists and scored 5 goals... Oscar scored 8 and did 2 assists. Our number 10 last season did 2 ASSISTS in 2160 minutes in the League. 84 players in the League did more assists than Chelsea's number 10.

Just to put into perspective Aaron Ramsey scored 10 goals and did 8 assists in 1771 minutes. Let's not talk about players like Silva, Toure and others.

Oscar is increadible and is playing really well (I can't see it), but the same people that say Oscar is increadible say that Willian need more competition when we have Salah and Schurrle for that position. I think that people need to rewatch games, they need also to see that the one with no competition is Oscar and maybe that was one of the things that made us lose everything, and they need to have more logic when they say that Oscar does "invisible" work and that's why he has horrible numbers but for WIllian that doesn't work like that...

[The Chels 2,502]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:53, MrExcalibur100 said:

At times is the key word there. Even for our best players, that can't be helped because of our style of play. It's normal and not just us. Fabregas can be guilty of that at times and that's because he's a high risk high reward type of player. His ball control isn't also in the level of a Hazard or Willian but arguably slightly above Oscar's. I'll rather Fabregas stay positive with his passing and link up play than be a negative passenger or a woeful passer. I don't think the same applies to Matic though. Guy is just a straight up monster. The only time he loses it is when he's trying to make ambitious forward passes, but that's rare. No one dares rob the ball off him or even attempts to. At the end of the day, the reward is that we're doing fantastically well in every competition and playing beautiful football for the most part. That will definitely be a concern vs a Bayern or a Real though. We'll probably have to throw in a Ramires in against those. But we won't get hurt against the lot we're facing in the league.

I think our inability to maintain possession is a bigger problem than you suggest. Against City we couldn't maintain possession, on the counter attack or even against 10 men. Against Liverpool after taking the lead, we were awfully sloppy. In yesterday's game Cesc must have been dispossessed at least 2-3 times in the second half and that didn't come from him trying a risky pass but rather from not coping well in tight spaces.

In games where the play becomes stretched, Matic becomes very, very sloppy as we saw against Sunderland. In fact the entire team's passing tends to go to **** when we can't break a small team down away from home or when we've taken the lead away to a big team. My point is that while Oscar/Willian are probably the biggest culprits, the team as a whole needs to maintain possession a lot better when under pressure.

Edited December 4, 2014 by The Chels

[Jase 43,479]

  On 04/12/2014 at 12:31, Shakez said:

It's not that we have better options at our disposal. His contribution in the final third is inconsistent and i would like it more that he had performances like against Villa and Schalke, but on the other hand the team is playing really well and we are pretty fine attacking wise anyway (ignoring the blip that was Sunderland). Our run of marathon games is still going on and it's good we have him here seemingly never getting tired. Tiredness i do notice in players like Oscar, Hazard and Fabregas. Schürrle will mostly likely be rotated in against Newcastle, and having an engine player like Willian in the squad will allow us to rest Oscar/Hazard.

For me he definitely improved from last season with his runs and getting into goalscoring positions.

True and we are fortunate in that aspect in some ways. Our attacks would have been so much more threatening than they are now if our RW can consistently contribute in the final third. It's one thing turning a blind eye on Willian because the others are doing great offensively but it's another when our lack of attacking threat from the right side gets exposed when the other attacking players have off days. We saw that quite a bit last season.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:08, The Chels said:

I think our inability to maintain possession is a bigger problem than you suggest. Against City we couldn't maintain possession, on the counter attack or even against 10 men. Against Liverpool after taking the lead, we were awfully sloppy. In yesterday's game Cesc must have been dispossessed at least 2-3 times in the second half and that didn't come from him trying a risky pass but rather from not coping well in tight spaces.

In games where the play becomes stretched, Matic becomes very, very sloppy as we saw against Sunderland. In fact the entire team's passing tends to go to **** when we can't break a small team down away from home or when we've taken the lead away to a big team. My point is that while Oscar/Willian are probably the biggest culprits, the team as a whole needs to maintain possession a lot better when under pressure.

When we start losing matches, we can have this conversation, until then, I'll enjoy the wins.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:23, Superfrankie said:

Does he eat before a game?

Seriously, I'm a terrible goalie but even I could save his shots.

He's been spending too much time with Hazard...

[Rom2013 446]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:31, Jason said:

True and we are fortunate in that aspect in some ways. Our attacks would have been so more threatening than they are now if our RW can consistently contribute in the final third. It's one thing turning a blind eye on Willian because the others are doing great offensively but it's another when our lack of attacking threat from the right side is exposed when the other attacking players have off days. We saw that quite a bit last season.

By others you mean Hazard, Costa and Fabregas right?

[Jase 43,479]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:36, Rom2013 said:

By others you mean Hazard, Costa and Fabregas right?

Hazard, Costa, Fabregas, Drogba, Remy, Oscar etc that are contributing to our attacks.

[WNDS 502]

  On 04/12/2014 at 18:02, dee25 said:

I'm honestly as confused as you are because this season Willian to me has been very sloppy on the ball. I'm usually one of his biggest defenders but he's been so easy to dispossess even more so than Oscar. Last season Willian at least was an excellent dribbler, he could receive passes in tight spaces and keep possession. His passing was also very good. This season, he's been sloppy and can't beat defenders. I'm sorry I'm not going to sugar coat it but Oscar right now looks twice the player Willian does. Even his defensive contributions, how many times against Spurs did he make a tackle? Dispossess an opponent? It seems that all Willian does is run, run, and run without actually doing anything.

All Willian does is run without doing anything!? Opinions, opinions, sure, but this is just flat out wrong; whatever the raw stats say, his defensive contribution was immense against Tottenham.

Talk about completely dismissing the importance of work done off the ball; you make it sound like he runs around the pitch without any tactical discipline. His work with the ball in the attacking third of the pitch is questionable, but his running to block opposition passing lanes, his closing down of opposition players in possession, and his brilliant tracking of the man on the overlap when helping out our defence really shouldn't be. I can think of few attacking midfielders at this level of the game that are as capable defensively as he is.

[The Chels 2,502]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:32, MrExcalibur100 said:

When we start losing matches, we can have this conversation, until then, I'll enjoy the wins.

Haha fair enough but it did almost cost us against Sunderland. Personally I'm more interested in our weaknesses and where we can improve (before we lose because of them!) than enjoying our obvious strengths, but I guess that's Jose's job and not the supporters'

[Rom2013 446]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:37, Jason said:

Hazard, Costa, Fabregas, Drogba, Remy, Oscar etc that are contributing to our attacks.

What contribution of Oscar? Last season 2 assists in 2160 minutes from our number 10. What a great contribution. Oscar this season has 4 goals and 4 assists in Champions League+ League, Willian in less games 2 goals and 2 assists.

In reality the players that contribute to the attack are Fabregas, Costa and Hazard. Willian and Oscar have poor numbers... the difference between the 2 in here is that everyone says that Willian should improve, should shoot more, should contribute more for the team in attack. But in the opinion of that same people Oscar is playing really well when last season he was mediocre and this season he was ok at best.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 04/12/2014 at 19:31, Jason said:

True and we are fortunate in that aspect in some ways. Our attacks would have been so much more threatening than they are now if our RW can consistently contribute in the final third. It's one thing turning a blind eye on Willian because the others are doing great offensively but it's another when our lack of attacking threat from the right side gets exposed when the other attacking players have off days. We saw that quite a bit last season.

Like who? Schurrle? He's not worth the extra 5-6 goals now that we have real strikers.