The Tactics Thread

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

Since the other thread in this sub forum has not been used adequatley under the general terms, as it concentrated more on chelsea than on general football, and also since it has been inactive for almost 4 months, here is a fresh new start. If you feel this is inadequate (mods), feel free to merge.

Well Here we can use this thread to ask questions or provide information about tactics regarding teams and players in general.

Right now i will initiate the thread By giving an overview of different types of Three Man Midfields (Trivote).

There are Defensive Trivotes Like the one above used in 2011 in the Valencia-Madrid clash.

Here Mourinho had no other weapons and knew that he had to help Xabi Alonso get space to breath since he is easy to mark and stop from producing if pressed and marked well. He is a liability under the wrong system and Mourinho never adequately fixed the problem, instead trying to find intermediate solutions that never worked to all too good extremes.

This is an example of Mourinho using Khedira as the B2B who could help defend, attack, mark and press, all of which he could do from average to below average.

And Lass had to foul and break up play.

Everything to allow Alonso Space. This is an example of a Holding/Defensive Trivote. With purposes to Break up play while intenting to produce defensive stability, and in this case also help Alonso distribute balls. The logistics of the match were very interesting and resulted in a 2-3 loss to Valencia where Madrid's overall talent helped surpass the negativity of a faulty scheme.

The other Popular type of trivote is the Attacking Trivote.

Like F.C. Barcelona's which is capable of working under different mechanics along with the team's overall structure, and can produce different results. With a very intelligent CDM like Busquets, the team is built exquisitely.

While Xavi tries to dictate play, and iniesta helping go forward, a 3 piece creative masterpiece that works with the team to create intense pressing.

So Different Outcomes can indeed result from these different types of Trivotes.

You can produce very different out comes with three man midfields that are shaped differently, and have different types of players in them, and around them.

Here's an interesting Cover for Marca where trivotes like the ones mourinho used were critisized, and asked in exchange for more attacking tridents. (referring to benzema,higuain, ronaldo).

Talking about Tridents, sometimes Double pivots used in 4-2-3-1's combined with a ACM (Like Kroos), or Cam (Ozil ) infront of them can help produce a trident, where the ACM depending on his abilities can help with midfield battles and overall defensive,attacking, structure.

In this picture there are Two different 4-2-3-1's one where Kroos was the key figure in the superior pivot and trident over Madrid.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04/17/bayern-munich-2-1-real-madrid-what-type-of-player-to-use-as-the-number-ten/

With different Players and systems very different results can be produced.

The first Picture is an example of a

CDM(DLP)

B2B DM

2nd is

CDM

CM ACM

3rd if

Bayern:

B2B (B2B CM)

ACM

vs

Madrid:

B2B CDM

CAM

In this case Bayern's Trident was better in almost every way possible.

Khedira is Immobile as a tank with very average abilities and almost non existant technique.

Alonso also the same although he has some defensive abilities couples with great vision and long passing, but stopped by harsh immobility.

And Ozil is more of a forward (CAM) than an ACM, with not enough tactical awareness, stamina, or work rate to compare himself to someone like Kroos, which is a much more complete and resourceful player.

Madrid got outmuscled in speed, quality, cohesion, pressing, passing, defending, etc.

Disgrace of a pivot and trident if put against the best.

Coupled with the Fullback and winger battles which Bayern won through a superior full back partnership, and superior "wingers" when it comes to work rate and quality.

Ronaldo does not track back and di maria is a jackass when it comes to football IQ.

Example of this is his poor passing which is barely above 69 percent for the 12/13 season compared to a player like ribery with 87 percent passing success.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

Alright

There are also Various Types of Players (roles) that can be used in a midfield.

CDM- Central Defensive Midfielder

CM- Central Midfielder

DLP- Deep Lying playmaker

B2B- Box to Box Player

ACM- Advanced central midfielder

CAM- Central attacking midfielder.

DM- Defensive midfielder

RM- Right Midfielder

LM- Left midfielder

Sometimes People can get their terms wrong so here is a simple overview.

CDM's are players that have either very good defensive abilities coupled with ok vision and passing,

OR

Players with great vision and passing, that can help dictate play with some ok - good, defensive abilities.

Examples of the First Kind are Bender Brothers, Gonalons, Javi Martinez, Busquets (he's a unique hybrid of both types. Hes a genius player tactically).

Examples of the second kind are players like...

Nuri Sahin, Schweinsteiger, Gundogan, Alonso, Illarramendi, Pirlo, Scholes.

These types of players can be used in various different ways as most different type of players, but their role is significantly defined by the players around them and the system they are playing in.

Players like Nuri Sahin and Gundogan should NEVER be paired together in a double pivote such as the 2 in the 4-2-3-1 because none of them have the defensive capabilities to effectively work without becoming a defensive liability for their team.

This is why Bender-Nuri

Bender-Gundogan has been used in dortmund.

Two CDM's That COMPLEMENT each other.

Players have to COMPLEMENT each other.

Thats why players with the abilities of Bender, Gundogan and Nuri Sahin also cant work effectively in a

4-3-3- or 4-2-3-1 trident such as the following.

4-3-3

Bender (Doesnt have ENOUGH defensive ability to do a true DM's (or a B2B DM LIKE TOURE) job infront of the defense like that.

Nuri Sahin Gundogan

This wont work because sure it has good defense overall, but neither Nuri or Gundogan have the ability to work as AM ( Attacking midfielders like Ozil Or Mata or Iniesta.)

Nor can it work like this.

Bender Gundogan

Sahin

in a 4-2-3-1 for same reasons.

There are also B2B midfielders like Schweinsteiger (hes a complete midfielder than can be categorized as a CDM, and a B2B, and a CM), Yaya Toure (which can be good in CDM and DM positions as well, and an average or below average job more infront depending on their abilities), khedira, paulinho, ramires, etc.

As you can see there is lots of variety in these players and sometimes they can do some other things very well, as well.

They are jacks of all trades, but masters of none( not always lol), but it is players like Pogba, Toure, Schweinsteiger, which can be effective in multiple roles and systems which count the most. Some b2b are average in all midfield positions or below so, like khedira, which become irrelevant in top teams as they cant complement anything too well.

Depending on the B2B's overall abilities you can put B2B's like Toure and Schweinsteiger together and tell one to serve more as the DM (ideally toure) while schweinsteiger serves as the CM/CDM.

OR a 3 man midfield with

Toure

Schweinsteiger and an ACM/CM.

There are also DM's which break up play and thats pretty much their main and most reliable exponent such as Makaklele, De Rossi (which can serve as a bit of a B2B with his overall vision and passing and tactical awareness but his defensive skills put him more as a DM)

etc.

You put these in a double pivot with guys like

De Rossi - Gundogan and you have a good combination.

Also

De Rossi

Modric Isco

DM, Hard and good work rate cm, and good work rate ACM.

DM's focus more on defensive ability and tactical awareness over vision and passing.

Another type of a midfielder role is the CM type player like Xavi, Thiago, Modric which dictate play and have poor to good work rate, but not enough work rate, tactical awareness, ability, to be a CDM like Gundogan.

CDM's like Gundogan can become CM's if their defensive abiltites and positioning are not required under a scheme.

You have to pair them up again, in midfields that complement each other.

HOPEFULLY YOU SEE THE TREND REGARDING COMPLEMENTARY POSITIONS AND VARIABILITY IN SKILLS AND SCHEME.

There is yet another term known as a DLP, which is practically a CDM (go to top to read again about cdm's) placed to control play and play make from farther along the pitch.

Such as alonso, sahin, schweinsteiger, pirlo, illaramendi.

These players can be CDM's as well such as Alonso in spain.

To be complemented by well rounded B2B'S or CDM, or DM.

Finally there are ACM's like isco, modric, iniesta, kroos, gotze which can work in 3 man midfields for example or as the top of a trident in a 4-2-3-1.

And can help with defending, tactical awareness, possession, counter etc. More resourceful players than CAM's which are placed farther up the pitch and serve less purpose than ACM's and regularly have less variability, and are seen more like forwards or shadow strikers

such as ozil, mata, silva, gotze ( if told), etc.

These players are ideally played centrally in a 4-2-3-1 if the double pivot is strong enough, but cant be played in a 4-3-3 like barcelona's for example.

Unless they play through the right flank in either formations (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3-)for example.

Alright i can add more later, but theres a bit of an overview concerning differences, and complementary specifications.

There are also Right and Left Midfielders which primarily can do defending, playmaking, and attacking to a good degree, a bit like a b2b but more specific in their play when it comes to the attack.

Ramires, Isco, Iniesta, can be described as RM and LM and they dont work in double pivots because of their roles.

this is a young midfield that could work.

Kondogbia

Thiago Isco

With Isco not only being an ACM but also an LM going more towards the left.

Sometimes differences between ACM, and LM can be very little such as restricting a player going into a more advanced area of the pitch sometimes.

Someone like Maggio from Napoli can also serve as a RM in a 3-5-2

A wingback, midfielder, and winger all in once, a B2B player but in a different sense...An example of a RM.