Lewis Baker

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 15/10/2014 at 14:24, lionsden said:

Ofcourse managerial stabilityis very important and I have already conceded that. However the mentality and philosophy of the manager is just as important as the stability itself.Of what use his managerial stability if the brightest youngsters never get any opportunities. In order for it to work and be worth it, the manager has to be someone that takes great joy and pride in watching youth develop and blossom like Van Gaal, pep, Klopp, pre 2012 Wenger (before the pressure to win got to him)et al

I agree with that, and it's something I hope Jose will develop more during his time here.

[Myself 793]

Something I've noticed so far.. so many people on this forum want us to buy Varane/Benatia/Hummels etc. but they also expect us to bring youth players through?

[iseah100 5,612]

  On 15/10/2014 at 23:53, Myself said:

Something I've noticed so far.. so many people on this forum want us to buy Varane/Benatia/Hummels etc. but they also expect us to bring youth players through?

Just like people want Reus, Pogba, and Vidal but also want Boga, Baker and RLC to come through the ranks.

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 15/10/2014 at 23:53, Myself said:

Something I've noticed so far.. so many people on this forum want us to buy Varane/Benatia/Hummels etc. but they also expect us to bring youth players through?

There's a thing called balance.

Take Benatia for example at 27, four years time he's 31 and Zouma is 23, almost perfect ages for the gradual switchover to start.

What seems to be overlooked is how complicated youth development is, if we had a youth player that could have come into the fold and been as good as Cesc (technically, tactically and mentally) we would have kept the 27m and played him instead.

I do believe that A LOT depends on the player himself, fans tend to blame the club when things don't work with young players (I mean seriously, do you believe Conor Clifford is a Southend squad player instead of Chelsea and Ireland captain because we didn't give him that extra bit of care and attention?) take JT for example during his young years we accepted a bid from Huddersfield for him and we brought William Gallas which (seemingly) chucked him down the pecking order but he fought and fought and the rest is history, if Baker, Chalobah etc want to have a career here, they will need to show that sort of fight (and be good enough of course).

Chala is another example, he has a PL loan and with it a wonderful chance to make himself a genuine option in this squad, now this Burnley team are woeful, if Nathaniel can't break past some of the dross in there team, how on earth can we justify including him in our squad next season?

Youth development works both ways, if we are this evil club not giving player's good enough chances, one of our European rivals would happily show us how stupid we were (ala Pogba from United).

Oh remember Miroslav Stoch? a lot of Chelsea fans wanted him to be our new number 1 winger after his loan at Twente, he's been shipped on loan to the Greece league by Fener, guees were have to make do with Eden Hazard, silly board.

[lionsden 4,689]

  On 16/10/2014 at 00:30, Tomo said:

There's a thing called balance.

Take Benatia for example at 27, four years time he's 31 and Zouma is 23, almost perfect ages for the gradual switchover to start.

What seems to be overlooked is how complicated youth development is, if we had a youth player that could have come into the fold and been as good as Cesc (technically, tactically and mentally) we would have kept the 27m and played him instead.

I do believe that A LOT depends on the player himself, fans tend to blame the club when things don't work with young players (I mean seriously, do you believe Conor Clifford is a Southend squad player instead of Chelsea and Ireland captain because we didn't give him that extra bit of care and attention?) take JT for example during his young years we accepted a bid from Huddersfield for him and we brought William Gallas which (seemingly) chucked him down the pecking order but he fought and fought and the rest is history, if Baker, Chalobah etc want to have a career here, they will need to show that sort of fight (and be good enough of course).

Chala is another example, he has a PL loan and with it a wonderful chance to make himself a genuine option in this squad, now this Burnley team are woeful, if Nathaniel can't break past some of the dross in there team, how on earth can we justify including him in our squad next season?

Youth development works both ways, if we are this evil club not giving player's good enough chances, one of our European rivals would happily show us how stupid we were (ala Pogba from United).

Oh remember Miroslav Stoch? a lot of Chelsea fans wanted him to be our new number 1 winger after his loan at Twente, he's been shipped on loan to the Greece league by Fener, guees were have to make do with Eden Hazard, silly board.

So because some of the youth players haven't been good enough admittedly means our approach to youth development and handling is flawless and the right way to do things? Is your suggestion to continue with the strategy of loaning these players to death until they lose the motivation and fight left in them or end up on a really bad team on loan where they aren't getting eny game time at all which in effect stagnate their development. How about give them incentives, encouragement, a reason to keep fighting?

When they see our woeful record with youth integration and how we never give the cream of the crop any decent opportunities (Ake,Christensen and Baker have barely had a kick this season, Kalas who was suppose to be outr 3rd or 4th choice CB has been farmed out on loan yet again after an impressive display against Liverpool) and then they themselves go on a very successful loan only to come back to square one and be shipped straight back on loan, why should they keep fighting what seems like a lost cause? . . . No matter how well I do on loan there's no way the manager will play me ahead of the senior players.

While I agree with you that opportunities shouldn't be handed out cheaply and should be earned, I also think the reward hasn't been forthcoming to those that deserve (have deserved it) and you are underestimating the human element and psychological impact of the way we handle these youngsters.

I refuse to believe we have not had atleast one youth player over the years that was as good (better than) the likes of Benayoun,Sidwell,Ben haim,Moses,Marin,Salah et al. Why buy a fringe player when you can promote internally and achieve similar if not better result for no additional cost?

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 16/10/2014 at 18:06, lionsden said:

So because some of the youth players haven't been good enough admittedly means our approach to youth development and handling is flawless and the right way to do things? Is your suggestion to continue with the strategy of loaning these players to death until they lose the motivation and fight left in them or end up on a really bad team on loan where they aren't getting eny game time at all which in effect stagnate their development. How about give them incentives, encouragement, a reason to keep fighting?

When they see our woeful record with youth integration and how we never give the cream of the crop any decent opportunities (Ake,Christensen and Baker have barely had a kick this season, Kalas who was suppose to be outr 3rd or 4th choice CB has been farmed out on loan yet again after an impressive display against Liverpool) and then they themselves go on a very successful loan only to come back to square one and be shipped straight back on loan, why should they keep fighting what seems like a lost cause? . . . No matter how well I do on loan there's no way the manager will play me ahead of the senior players.

While I agree with you that opportunities shouldn't be handed out cheaply and should be earned, I also think the reward hasn't been forthcoming to those that deserve (have deserved it) and you are underestimating the human element and psychological impact of the way we handle these youngsters.

I refuse to believe we have not had atleast one youth player over the years that was as good (better than) the likes of Benayoun,Sidwell,Ben haim,Moses,Marin,Salah et al. Why buy a fringe player when you can promote internally and achieve similar if not better result for no additional cost?

I agree to a point, i do believe wr could/should have done better however if one of our player's go on loan and become really really good, they will get a shot, Courtois is the prime example, rightly or wrongly that's the type of level they need to get to , to be first team regular here. KDB is another example to an extent, he jyst got unlucky for a variety of reasons. Bertrand eventually got his spot as a squad player here after impressive loans, he got unlucky due to the fact Mou builds team stability on defence and rarely rotates it (even Filipe is struggling to break past Cesar). If Mou rotated defence like he does AM, i think Ryan would still be here.

Player's will be patient on loans purely because our level is what they aspire to, young player's keep coming here despite our underwhelming recent record, they know what there signing up for.

You do have a point re Moses, Marin etc it would be good to start using some of them as squad player's (Jack Cork is one of them that can consider himself unlucky, I reckon he would have been perfect as a John O Shea type squad player).

Believe me if we won a CL one day with Baker, Chala and RLC there will be no one more delighted and proud than me, but it will take a lot of frustrations, fighting, patience and growing pains (on ours and there's behalf) if we ever get to that point.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Poor lad.

[iseah100 5,612]

He should leave, he'll never geta chance here, may end up like McEcharan

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 28/10/2014 at 21:43, iseah100 said:

He should leave, he'll never geta chance here, may end up like McEcharan

Are you on your period?

As if making an appearance off the bench against Shrewsburry would have affected his future! He still has a looong long way to go if he wants to make it here which has nothing to do with tonight's game. He'll need to go out on a couple pf loans, do exceptionally well and then hope that the circumstances are right for him to be given a chance and that we don't already have several top-class players in his position. And that goes for all the youngsters.

[Styles 9,790]

  On 28/10/2014 at 22:30, CHOULO19 said:

Are you on your period?

As if making an appearance off the bench against Shrewsburry would have affected his future! He still has a looong long way to go if he wants to make it here which has nothing to do with tonight's game. He'll need to go out on a couple pf loans, do exceptionally well and then hope that the circumstances are right for him to be given a chance and that we don't already have several top-class players in his position. And that goes for all the youngsters.

Tonight's game did have some significance though, there were no top-class players blocking Baker, and certainly not to the extent he couldn't feature at all. There was no Fabregas, Hazard or Matic.

Salah, Schurrle and Oscar aren't top-class by any stretch.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 28/10/2014 at 22:47, Styles said:

Tonight's game did have some significance though, there were no top-class players blocking Baker, and certainly not to the extent he couldn't feature at all. There was no Fabregas, Hazard or Matic.

Salah, Schurrle and Oscar aren't top-class by any stretch.

No, don't think it has any significance at all, unless a bit psychologically maybe. Baker is not in the same group as Salah, Shurrle and Oscar and he won't be regardless of whether or how he plays tonight.

I understand that you are probably upset by tonight's performance of those players (can't understand why, though, it's the league cup!) but you need to put this into perspective.

[iseah100 5,612]

  On 28/10/2014 at 22:30, CHOULO19 said:

Are you on your period?

As if making an appearance off the bench against Shrewsburry would have affected his future! He still has a looong long way to go if he wants to make it here which has nothing to do with tonight's game. He'll need to go out on a couple pf loans, do exceptionally well and then hope that the circumstances are right for him to be given a chance and that we don't already have several top-class players in his position. And that goes for all the youngsters.

Mou insisted the youngsters would get time, he's 20 and can't even get in vs fucking Shrewsbury, if he doesn't play against them when will he play? He has a right to be concerned, he played Oscar, who played 2 days before, over playing Baker who could have played better knowing it was his chance.

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 29/10/2014 at 01:25, iseah100 said:

Mou insisted the youngsters would get time.

and 3 off them did.

[iseah100 5,612]

  On 29/10/2014 at 01:41, Tomo said:

and 3 off them did.

Zouma isn't really a youngster though, is he? He didn't play with our youth squad like Ake, Christensen, Solanke, and Baker.

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 29/10/2014 at 01:44, iseah100 said:

Zouma isn't really a youngster though, is he? He didn't play with our youth squad like Ake, Christensen, Solanke, and Baker.

Just because he is brought doesn't mean he doesn't have the raw inconsistencys 99.9 percent of footballers his age have.

When lower league sides host PL teams the games are almost always very close, playing half or more of the team teenager's is asking for elimination.

Our youth cup winning side of few years back went to play Wycombes seniors the following pre season, they lost 5-1..............

[lionsden 4,689]

What was the point in adding him to the team sheet if he was never going to feature and when is he ever going to feature? when all our senior players are fit and free of suspension or when we move into the business end of the season smh

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 29/10/2014 at 01:25, iseah100 said:

Mou insisted the youngsters would get time, he's 20 and can't even get in vs fucking Shrewsbury, if he doesn't play against them when will he play? He has a right to be concerned, he played Oscar, who played 2 days before, over playing Baker who could have played better knowing it was his chance.

And they did. This season alone, Jose has given debuts to all of Solanke, Baker himself and yesterday Christensen and Brown was on the bench for the first time yesterday as well. That is more than any previous manager has done in a single season and beyond any of our dreams even 3 months ago.

About yesterday, the starting XI needs a certain balance. You can't put out your U21 team out because they'd get battered. Jose actually went one better than what I had expected and started Christensen who I thought would be on the bench. He could of course had started Baker instead of Christensen and played Ake at LB, but obviously Jose thinks the young Dane is more ready. Unfortunately, the game didn't pan out in a way where we could bring on more youth players and still ensure going through to the next round.

Point is, be grateful for the youth involvement yesterday and in this season in general because it has already exceeded expectations. There's just no pleasing some people...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 29/10/2014 at 03:09, lionsden said:

What was the point in adding him to the team sheet if he was never going to feature and when is he ever going to feature? when all our senior players are fit and free of suspension or when we move into the business end of the season smh

The point was that, had the game panned out in a way that we could have brought on more youngsters, he would have gotten some valuable experience playing with the first team. Unfortunately, that didn't happen, but just being on the bench should be a great boost for his confidence because it is a message that the management thinks you're going in the right direction, and a great motivation for him and the rest of the youth team to keep working hard to be able to play with the first team.

Honestly, the moaning on here is hilarious! The boy would have been delighted to even be considered for the match and yet you're all upset about it on his behalf!