Closed Chelsea 0-1 QPR

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 12:34, The Big Drog said:

Against smaller sides Barcelona will routinely rest Iniesta or Xavi or both. Real Madrid have no problem resting Ozil or Alonso against smaller sides if the manager feels they need rest. Ferguson for years has been able to rest Rooney occasionally and previously Ronaldo and now Van Persie and still feel confident of getting a result.

Are you telling me that we can't put Brazil's starting number 10 and German international Marko Marin into the side and not expect to break down QPR?

If the manager can no longer rest two players against bloody QPR, bring in two highly rated young players only to be called complacent then I give up, I really do, with that ridiculously stupid logic what is the fucking point in even having a squad? Let's just use the same 11 players every week.

Yes, I'm telling you that. I'm telling you we're not in a position at the moment where we can afford to take chances in league matches by resting our most important player, especially when we have two cup games coming up where he could be rested with lower stakes at risk.

If you want to give up based on that, then fine. But you'll note no-one is saying that we should use the same 11 players every week. Hell, Mata played 50 games last season - I'd be quite happy if he played just 48 this season and they were just the remaining league games.

Of course all this completely ignores the point that he wasn't rested and was eventually brought on much too late.

We aren't in the position Barcelona are in unfortunately.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 03/01/2013 at 12:05, The only place to be said:

Personally I'm happy with the club valuing long-term, sustainable success over short-termist thinking which is actually what has led to our current problems in my opinion. The club are clearly trying to set themselves up for next season by targeting a quality manager and young players who fit his system and style of playing. I've said this before but we're not going to spend big like we did in 2004.

We've spent more in each of the last three seasons than we did than we have in any season since 2004-2005. We're actually spending more now. Sure, we're not going to spend like we did in 2004, but no one is (except PSG) ever again. We've spent more than any other club in the Premier League over the past three years. Our problem is not that we thought short-term, it's that our signings were crap. In 07-08 we bought Anelka, Malouda, and Ivanovic. None of them particularly young and all were instrumental in the success we've had since then. The problem is that since then, our transfers have been horrible. We've spent 250M in the past three seasons and only have one excellent player, a few good players,and some nothing players. That's not nearly good enough for what we've spent. The problem recently, is that we are planning too long-term. You should be planning for a few years, not for 10. Our competitors are spending the big money on players who are ready to compete and still buying young talent. City bought Nastasic for what, 10M pounds and he's 20 and now their starting CB. ManU bought Kagawa who was 23 and Bundesliga player of the year for 14M pounds. Spurs spent on Lloris, Vertonghen, and Dembele none were more than 15M pounds. All of them are in their mid-20s and should be top players for years. You don't have to be 19 or 20 to be a buy with the future in mind. Most players aren't going to play more than a few years with any club anyway. We're spending a lot of our big money on young talent who aren't ready yet. No other club is doing that.

And building for the future at the expense of the present makes no sense in football because every year you do poorly, you lose a lot of money which hurts your future. Each place in the Premier League costs you around 755K pounds so the difference between winning and finishing lower in the table is millions If you don't make the CL which is unlikely but possible for us, it can cost you up to 35M. Us not making it past the group stages cost something like 15-20M. So, the value of buying players for the future is completely shot if you don't win. Us not having a better team this season is going to cost us millions and millions of pounds which in turn will make us have less money to spend next summer which will make it harder to compete long-term.

[The Big Drog 1,110]

  On 03/01/2013 at 12:52, Tinashe4 said:

We are not saying he should not rest his players but everyone could see they was something wrong at half time he had to make changes. If we are to believe what the press say RDM was fired for being tactically inept and thts why Rafa was brought in but he again failed the same goes for the west ham and Corinthians games were he made his subs reallly late on Hazard only came on in the 59th minute which was un acceptable

How is the 59th minute unacceptable? He gave the players he started a team talk, he gave them time to go out and apply what he said at half time, it didn't work out so he changed it after 15 minutes. That's just logical management, not a hanging offence.

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 13:32, TorontoChelsea said:

We've spent more in each of the last three seasons than we did than we have in any season since 2004-2005. We're actually spending more now. Sure, we're not going to spend like we did in 2004, but no one is (except PSG) ever again. We've spent more than any other club in the Premier League over the past three years. Our problem is not that we thought short-term, it's that our signings were crap. In 07-08 we bought Anelka, Malouda, and Ivanovic. None of them particularly young and all were instrumental in the success we've had since then. The problem is that since then, our transfers have been horrible. We've spent 250M in the past three seasons and only have one excellent player, a few good players,and some nothing players. That's not nearly good enough for what we've spent. The problem recently, is that we are planning too long-term. You should be planning for a few years, not for 10. Our competitors are spending the big money on players who are ready to compete and still buying young talent. City bought Nastasic for what, 10M pounds and he's 20 and now their starting CB. ManU bought Kagawa who was 23 and Bundesliga player of the year for 14M pounds. Spurs spent on Lloris, Vertonghen, and Dembele none were more than 15M pounds. All of them are in their mid-20s and should be top players for years. You don't have to be 19 or 20 to be a buy with the future in mind. Most players aren't going to play more than a few years with any club anyway. We're spending a lot of our big money on young talent who aren't ready yet. No other club is doing that.

And building for the future at the expense of the present makes no sense in football because every year you do poorly, you lose a lot of money which hurts your future. Each place in the Premier League costs you around 755K pounds so the difference between winning and finishing lower in the table is millions If you don't make the CL which is unlikely but possible for us, it can cost you up to 35M. Us not making it past the group stages cost something like 15-20M. So, the value of buying players for the future is completely shot if you don't win. Us not having a better team this season is going to cost us millions and millions of pounds which in turn will make us have less money to spend next summer which will make it harder to compete long-term.

We spent £250 million, but 1/5th of that was on Torres who is probably the biggest flop ever. Maybe in the years 2008-2010 our transfers were horrible but they were the result of short-term thinking. In fact I think it's much too early to suggest that the transfers from the summer of 2010 have been 'horrible'. The likes of Mata, Cahill, Azpilicueta and Moses all seem to have been good value whilst we've spent big on Courtois, Lukaku, Hazard, De Bruyne and Oscar who are all good prospects for the future.

As for City, they might have bought Nastasic cheaply - they also bought Sinclair, Rodwell, Savic and Balotelli who haven't been quite so good. I don't know what their long-term plan isto be honest. United have made a couple of good signings in Jones, Smalling and Powell but I honestly don't think Fergie is looking that long-term.

We're in a position where we're resetting the way we do things. We had to spend big to achieve parity with the top teams at the start of Abramovich's reign but he clearly wants something more sustainable and I think we're going the right way about it. That might mean some tough years but longer-term I think it's going to pay-off. Of course we'll be expecting improvements next season, and then the season after. People just need a bit of patience and understanding.

[The Big Drog 1,110]

  On 03/01/2013 at 13:14, The only place to be said:

Yes, I'm telling you that. I'm telling you we're not in a position at the moment where we can afford to take chances in league matches by resting our most important player, especially when we have two cup games coming up where he could be rested with lower stakes at risk.

If you want to give up based on that, then fine. But you'll note no-one is saying that we should use the same 11 players every week. Hell, Mata played 50 games last season - I'd be quite happy if he played just 48 this season and they were just the remaining league games.

Of course all this completely ignores the point that he wasn't rested and was eventually brought on much too late.

We aren't in the position Barcelona are in unfortunately.

So we can no longer rest a couple of players at home to QPR at the end of one of the busiest schedules a football club could possibly have. I must have missed the bit where we went from being European Champions with a strong squad to being relegation candidates.

Maybe Rafa thinks we can do something in the cups this year? If we can't rotate (if that's what you can call making a couple of changes) at home to the bottom side then when can you rotate?

Wait if he wasn't rested then what was he?

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 13:46, The Big Drog said:

So we can no longer rest a couple of players at home to QPR at the end of one of the busiest schedules a football club could possibly have. I must have missed the bit where we went from being European Champions with a strong squad to being relegation candidates.

Maybe Rafa thinks we can do something in the cups this year? If we can't rotate (if that's what you can call making a couple of changes) at home to the bottom side then when can you rotate?

Wait if he wasn't rested then what was he?

Did you also miss the bit where we finished last season sixth, got knocked out of the Champions League and that whole two decades where the Champions League became the most important competition in European football?

Did you also miss the bit where we drew against QPR in two of our last three matches? What about the bit where we drew against teams like Fulham and Swansea who aren't the strongest teams in the league? There aren't any easy games in the league so we can't really take chances.

I suppose the idea was to rest Mata by having him on the bench, but it didn't work out so basically every aspect of this strategy failed.

And who gives a fuck if we do something in the cups? The league has to be the priority.

[Wfisheruk 22]

As much I want to put all the blame on rafa I can't that team should be more then capable of beating qpr,it's simple none of our players didn't turn up last night was a very poor performance from start to finish!!

[Rmpr 8,977]

  On 03/01/2013 at 11:40, TorontoChelsea said:

He does need to step it up if Chelsea hope to stay in the Champion's League spot. It's not fair, but Oscar is one of the most expensive midfielders in history and one of the most expensive players we've ever bought (6th), and because of that, we need to be getting better performances. Oscar was more expensive than Mata, David Silva, Alexis, Cazorla, Reus, Kagawa, Ozil, Dembele,etc... Young players who had established themselves in top leagues. It's not his fault he cost so much money which is why I'm not upset with him. but it's an insane amount of money to spend on someone you need to develop. Think of it this way, if Chelsea had chosen to sign (in a theoretical world) say Van Persie or Dembele and Ba i(or any other combination of ready players instead of Oscar in the summer, where would they be right now? Probably seriously challenging for the Premier League. So, Oscar might be worth it in the long run, but every year of development, costs us short-term both in terms of results and in terms of money.

And every young player is a gamble. Every player period is a bit of a gamble, but for someone who has not proven themselves, it's a big gamble. Ronaldo could have turned out to be Quaresma or any other number of flops. Yes, people knew Messi was going to be great when he was young but there are tons of players people "know" are going to be great and most of them aren't.. Here is a list of Don Balon's top-100 young footballers in 2001 (apologies for posting a link to a ManU blog, I feel dirty) http://www.redcafe.net/f7/top-100-young-players-2001-a-205125/ You can see what a complete crap-shoot young talent is. Even the elite of the elite of young players are vastly more likely to fail than to succeed. I do think Oscar will likely be a great player and his chances of being a complete flop are tiny because he has a lot of very good fundamental skills, but it's still a risk.

I know we could have bought a great CM with that money, but transfers need to be individually analised. Oscar was in a team that did not need the money and had just bought him, they sold him because the money was too good to turn down. Cazorla for instance, Malaga desperately needed the money because of FFP (they are banned from UEFA next year) and the first offer that came to them had to be accepted. It does not mean Oscar has more value and should be compared to Cazorla (atm) because for their pricetag. I might be the only one, but I prefer Oscar for 25mi, than Cazorla for 16mi. Oscar in 2-3 years will be better than him and would still have a good 7 years. I prefer to "miss" two years and gain seven. I don't know about you...

I am not saying Oscar is doing a great job in EPL (because he isnt), all I am saying is that he can't be compared with players in their prime and be asked to lead our team in the absence of Mata and Hazard. He is not ready to do so and should receive a pass for at least a year. If we have this conversation one year from now, I will have to begin to havely criticize him. Not now, though.

Also, it is quite different to say a transfer has risks and/or is a gamble. I mean, buying Falcao has its risk, but you wouldnt say it is a gamble. Every single transfer in football has its chances of going either way, but a gamble is when you don't have any control of what the player might become. Definetly not what happened with Oscar, Ronaldo, etc.

[The Big Drog 1,110]

  On 03/01/2013 at 13:52, The only place to be said:

Did you also miss the bit where we finished last season sixth, got knocked out of the Champions League and that whole two decades where the Champions League became the most important competition in European football?

Did you also miss the bit where we drew against QPR in two of our last three matches? What about the bit where we drew against teams like Fulham and Swansea who aren't the strongest teams in the league? There aren't any easy games in the league so we can't really take chances.

I suppose the idea was to rest Mata by having him on the bench, but it didn't work out so basically every aspect of this strategy failed.

And who gives a fuck if we do something in the cups? The league has to be the priority.

Maybe you missed the bit where we spent like 100 million on players in the Summer. To add to a Champions League winning side.

Did you miss those 17 consecutive games that QPR failed to win this season? Or how utterly dreadful they looked against Liverpool? So your saying don't take chances? Never rotate? Based on this conversation I've changed my entire opinion on football, let's sell the squad all but for 11 starters, let's just play all the kids in the cups cos nobody cares about those anyway and there we have it, Rafa can't "take risks" by playing nearly 40 million pounds worth of replacements and we ignore the cups. We are definitely onto a winner with this one.

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 14:23, The Big Drog said:

Maybe you missed the bit where we spent like 100 million on players in the Summer. To add to a Champions League winning side.

Did you miss those 17 consecutive games that QPR failed to win this season? Or how utterly dreadful they looked against Liverpool? So your saying don't take chances? Never rotate? Based on this conversation I've changed my entire opinion on football, let's sell the squad all but for 11 starters, let's just play all the kids in the cups cos nobody cares about those anyway and there we have it, Rafa can't "take risks" by playing nearly 40 million pounds worth of replacements and we ignore the cups. We are definitely onto a winner with this one.

We aren't in a position to rest Mata for important games. Yesterday was an important game whereas the cups simply aren't as important right now.

Yes we spent a fair amount of money in the summer but £30 million of that was on the bench alongside Mata and the rest simply aren't able to cope in their absence. At the start of this thread we had people saying we should win 9-0 and QPR are shit and they lost to Liverpool, but everyone knows that local derbies are different beasts. You could feel the tension in the ground when it became known that Mata wasn't starting, and the wait to bring him on only exacerbated that.

Even if they were bottom of the league with 0 points, they're still QPR. That ALWAYS means something.

[The Big Drog 1,110]

  On 03/01/2013 at 14:30, The only place to be said:

We aren't in a position to rest Mata for important games. Yesterday was an important game whereas the cups simply aren't as important right now.

Yes we spent a fair amount of money in the summer but £30 million of that was on the bench alongside Mata and the rest simply aren't able to cope in their absence. At the start of this thread we had people saying we should win 9-0 and QPR are shit and they lost to Liverpool, but everyone knows that local derbies are different beasts. You could feel the tension in the ground when it became known that Mata wasn't starting, and the wait to bring him on only exacerbated that.

Even if they were bottom of the league with 0 points, they're still QPR. That ALWAYS means something.

Yes so we should have been able to do an adequate job with the replacements.

It means that they are the worst side in the league, that's what it means.

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 14:32, The Big Drog said:

Yes so we should have been able to do an adequate job with the replacements.

It means that they are the worst side in the league, that's what it means.

Like I said, it's still QPR. That means something to Chelsea fans and it should mean something to the club.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I don't fault Rafa for not starting Mata (although sitting both Mata and Hazard on the same day is strange. We can rotate and still play one of them). We need to be able to beat teams without Mata. Early in the year, we played great without Mata doing anything (and Hazard carrying us). We had mostly regulars in our starting XI and they should have done the job. I do find fault with Rafa for waiting so long to bring Mata on. I'm not sure it would have made a difference ultimately, but it was clear we were struggling to get any sort of attack going and the 75th minute was just too late.

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 14:44, TorontoChelsea said:

We need to be able to beat teams without Mata.

There's a difference between what we should be doing, and what we're capable of doing.

Leaving it so long was fucking ridiculous.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 03/01/2013 at 14:48, The only place to be said:

There's a difference between what we should be doing, and what we're capable of doing.

Leaving it so long was fucking ridiculous.

We are capable of beating teams without Mata. In the knockout stages of the CL last year, Mata was our worst player, and we still won the CL. Yes, we have a new style, but even this year, early in the year, Mata was terrible (he had played too much and needed to rest) and we won without him. It's the same issue we've had all season. We don't really have a plan of attack. We just hope that a moment of individual brilliance will give us goals. If you watched yesterday's game, you'd think our game-plan was to set up our defenders for 35 yard shots at goal or to try to score from a set piece. Almost like a Stoke game-plan. We could have scored. Moses could have got a hold of Marin's cross, Lampard could have been onside, Torres could have beaten Cesar, one of Ivanovic's close headers could have gone in. Even if we had, the goal wouldn't have been the result of some well thought out game-plan.

I also think that it's possible that our managers are under a lot of pressure to win something. We saw RDM use too strong of a lineup against ManU in the league cup which certainly cost us points in the league and now we see Rafa resting people in the league (I assume at least partly) to be able to play in the cups. Maybe it's their choice, but maybe it's helped by pressure to "win something".

[Rmpr 8,977]

I don't know why people are criticizing Benitez for not playing our strongest lineup. We have 4 games in 10 days, this is insane, we needed to rest our team at some point. It really made sense to do it against the worst team in EPL at SB.

Having said that, we did have a horrible performance (both from the manager and players) and deserved to lose. More than the tactical mistakes, we were fucking lazy...

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 03/01/2013 at 15:04, TorontoChelsea said:

We are capable of beating teams without Mata. In the knockout stages of the CL last year, Mata was our worst player, and we still won the CL.

That was last year. It's different this year and he's been key to everything we do going forward. What we missed was penetration last night which was why the defenders were shooting - Harry would've loved to let them have the ball and set his team up deep. The problem wasn't just us missing Mata, but the deeper players like Lampard and Luiz not offering anything either. Personally I would've liked to have seen Oscar deeper and Mata in his normal position.

  On 03/01/2013 at 15:12, Rmpr said:

I don't know why people are criticizing Benitez for not playing our strongest lineup. We have 4 games in 10 days, this is insane, we needed to rest our team at some point. It really made sense to do it against the worst team in EPL at SB.

Rest the players against Southampton's reserve team in the FA Cup or against Swansea. Send Mata for a few days in Dubai or a health spa in Berkshire for fucks sake.

Don't rest him in the league and don't rest him against QPR.

[didierforever 7,349]

  On 03/01/2013 at 15:12, Rmpr said:

We have 4 games in 10 days, this is insane, we needed to rest our team at some point.

which now mata and hazard WILL have to play because benitez cant afford anymore slip ups. plus with the southampton away game coming in FA cup then any manager would have given mata and hazard a rest together in the FA cup rather than the qpr PL games. its just basic common sense.