Lance Armstrong

[Milan 17,835]

You all know the story about Lance Armstrong. Yesterday, news came up, news that really shocked me.

Lance Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Lance Armstrong is stripped of his seven Tour de France titles

However I still believe he is not guilty. He underwent 520 tests and none was positive. The pressure he, his family and his success were under was enough for him I suppose.

Your thoughts?

[We Hate Scouse 10,260]

I know Cap has strong views on this and will tell you the other side of the story and why he should lose his titles, but he's banned till Wednesday

[Danelka 209]

I think he doped, everybody in the Tour de France dopes, so I really don't have any problem with that.

What I find ridiculous, is that if he loses his 7 titles, the new winners, Ullrich, Basso, Kloden and Beloki, all of them have already been suspended because of doping. So I wouldn't say they would be deserving winners of the Tour.

[Ollie 4,400]

I was very shocked when i heard it yesterday, it seems so tough on him but there must be something in it because you don't just strip someone without proof. Losing 7 Tour de France titles is so much you'd think he'd fight it but maybe he knows he's guilty. It's a mad situation.

[Milan 17,835]

Well on the other side I think that if he was really guilty, he would never give up on his campaign, trying to convince other people. Maybe he realized they really wanted to punish him (he called it 'Witch hunt') so he just gave up, as he found it pointless.

[BluesChick 1,260]

I believe that it was a witch hunt and that he finally gave up. Do I think he doped? probably but shouldn't there be a statue of limitation in proving it? it's been 13 years that he has been fighting this. I believe when he returned to racing that it stirred up the pot again and they went after him because he was so successful and so well known that it would make an impact. How many other Tour de France winners are as well known? In the US... NONE, outside the US probably more but it isn't like he is a professional footballer and competes in a sport that everyone watches.

Honestly, I think the USADA should be focusing on the athletes competing currently and not going back and persecuting athletes a decade after the fact! What's the point? Honestly, it makes the agency look like it is run by a bunch of disgruntled ex-athletes/non-athletes with an axe to grind. From what I understand it is not a government agency which is a good thing because I would be twice as annoyed to think that my tax dollars went to pay for this crap again (the taxpayers paid for the first two congressional hearings/federal cases he has been thru). So many other more worthy things my money could be paying for!

[Spike 12,049]

I know Cap has strong views on this and will tell you the other side of the story and why he should lose his titles, but he's banned till Wednesday

Ugh, he is going to have a lot to say in this thread. I'm going to avoid this thread when he returns.

I'd probably dope if I only had one testicle.

[We Hate Scouse 10,260]

Ugh, he is going to have a lot to say in this thread. I'm going to avoid this thread when he returns.

I'd probably dope if I only had one testicle.

Although I don't give a flying fuck what he has to say, he seems to know what he's talking about!

[Justin_3d 1,140]

I know Cap has strong views on this and will tell you the other side of the story and why he should lose his titles, but he's banned till Wednesday

Cap is banned till Wednesday?

I assume it was with Kojo as well?

If so good!!!

I hated this shit when they just ban one person, and don't ban them both.

Temporary ban is good for both in that case.

[capriccioso 2,545]

I know Cap has strong views on this and will tell you the other side of the story and why he should lose his titles, but he's banned till Wednesday

Alright, here I am. First post after my 1 week sojourn in the TalkChelsea State Correctional Facility. For anyone who's interested, I was careful to never drop the soap

I would like to remind you all to keep an open mind when you read the below paragraphs. Bear in mind the old adage, 'There are none as blind as those who do not see'. I have no personal agenda here. I'm not out to discredit Wonder Lance for my own personal gain. I've wasted 45 minutes of my life writing this up with nothing personal to gain whatsoever, so don't accuse me of being a witch hunter. To spare you from reading the 1300 word essay, inside the ‘spoiler’, I will post quick list of evidence against him after this:

We begin with a quick history lesson. In 1998, the cycling team Festina was caught by French border police in the possession of PED's and materials used to administrate them, during the 1998 Tour de France. They were all booted off the event, the team was disbanded, and France passed legislation that made it illegal on the pain of imprisonment, for any athlete or sports doctor/what have you to possess performance enhancing drugs or materials that can be used to design or deliver PED's into an athlete's system. At the start of the 1999 Tour de France, there was a feel good factor about the professional peloton- riders had had enough with the doping, and with the new legislation, those that were less morally scrupulous were too afraid to chance it. All but one man and the members of his team, Lance Armstrong and the US Postal Service cycling team. He proceeded to absolutely bollock that Tour- winning 4 stages and beating his closest rival by a whopping 7 minutes. It was obvious to the rest of the riders that he was on dope- and even more obvious that the authorities had decided to turn a blind eye to it, regardless of the outcome of the Festina affair that I mentioned earlier. This plunged the sport into a decade long doping arms race. 1999, the year that started with such promise, of a new, dope free era in cycling, instead marked a watershed moment- the start of the most doped up generation in the history of the sport. The ramifications of the Lance era are still felt today. Corrupt governing bodies. Riders still doping. A code of silence amongst riders to not snitch a rival who may be doping. He ended the careers of several whistle-blowers/anti dopers within the pro peloton, hounding 2 young, promising riders out of the sport because they spoke out against doping. I realise that I'm pretty much the only hardcore cycling fan on these forums, so most of this will be new and hard to believe for most of you but as a whole- cycling fans agree this man is not just one bad egg, the catalogue of his crimes make him a dozen bad eggs and more. His entire empire was built almost exactly like a Mafia empire- it was built on a web of drugs, lies, secret payoffs, intimidation, corruption and all sorts of other nefarious activities.

First and foremost, Lance never took 500 tests. He took 92 tests in his Tour de France career. He took 236 tests overall (he skipped one, so 237 times is the possible maximum). Lance Armstrong tested positive 13 times in total, for the following drugs:

EPO- 6 times

Glucosteroids- Once

Corticosteroids- Twice

Epitestosterone- 3 times

Synthetic testosterone- Once

He tested positive 6 times in 1999, and twice in 2001 and 2002 respectively. 6 times over a 3 week period. Most dopers today, such as Contador, are only ever busted once in their career and that's enough for a 2 year ban, if they are ever caught subsequently it’s a life ban. This is no witch hunt, this man is pure unadulterated scum, and not just because he had a penchant for giving himself an extra 2 litres of blood than humanly possible. As I said earlier, his entire empire was built almost exactly like a Mafia empire- it was built on a web of drugs, lies, secret payoffs, intimidation, corruption and all sorts of other nefarious activities.

Lance was responsible for all of that. He intimidated and bullied potential whistle-blowers with legal threats- that intimidation is still felt today, which is why you still have pro riders with nothing to say on the matter or saying things in support of convicted dopers. I can't tell you how much I admire dopers like Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton- who testified against Armstrong. Even though they only did it after they got caught, they took a huge risk by agreeing to testify. He intimidated riders on his team who were morally opposed to taking drugs- and forced them to ride for him, doped. He took out a super-injunction to stop journalists from publishing facts. He bribed the governing body of cycling, Union Cyclist International, to quash positive reports from 1999. Shockingly he went as far as sending anti-doping officials warnings that other riders were geared up. Pointing the finger at everyone but himself. Most galling of all, he knew what he was doing was wrong- but he still built up a cult of personality focused on himself. Lance 'Livestrong' Armstrong, the great cancer survivor, the great American, the greatest athlete of all time across any sport. Other dopers- as Danelka mentioned- did none of that. They knew what they were doing was wrong and they had the shame to not carry on like that. Danelka also mentioned that the Tour was 'full of dopers'- again, I must stress that we were on the verge of a breakthrough following the Festina affair. The likes of Ullrich and Kloden, Lance's rivals in the early years of his dominance, were off the dope in 1999 because they were afraid. His later rivals- Basso, Vinokourov, and Contador- would not have been doping if they didn't feel they had to in order to stand a chance. And guess what? Contador aside, he blew them all away. A man recovering from testicular cancer winning 7 Tour's on the trot and coming third in his comeback to the sport 4 years later, beating known dopers by margins of 6 to 7 minutes (an absolutely enormous gap in modern pro cycling- akin to winning a league in football by 25 points, and doing it 7 years on the trot) and winning 3-4 stages to boot every single time; hardly believable that he did it without pharmacological assistance. Assistance isn't enough to describe just what a huge impact drugs had on him- he was an average cyclist until 1998. Never looked like he could win any race that went for a week, let alone the most hotly contested 3 week race of them all. Can you imagine QPR rising out of the shit to suddenly win 7 PL's in a row and wrapping them up by Christmas?

You must also understand how loathed he is for the way he killed the Tour and cycling in general over 1999-2005. There was so little excitement. His super-doped team controlled the race from wire to wire. Other riders could not get close. It was a no contest, 7 years in a row. He took a once great race- renowned for its attacking nature, renowned for the incredible levels of competitiveness it produced, for the joy it gave millions around the world- and turned it into a sickening, clinical in more ways than one, single horse race that was over before it even started. He created a cancer in the sport that is still growing.

Just look at how well he has conned the world with his witch hunt shit. It's not a witch hunt. Ask yourself, in a world where sporting bodies are fixated on maximising profits, why would they bump off their most marketable name? Would FIFA have dumped Messi? The ITF with Nadal? No, they would not- it would cause them to lose a huge amount of sponsorship money and public interest. Why would cycling, a niche sport, therefore even more dependent on star power than other sports to raise awareness and sponsorship, get rid of its biggest star? There is no witch hunt. People say its jealous rivals that are out to get him discredited. That could not be further from the truth. The people who have testified against him have all been on his team. Floyd Landis rode with Lance, as did Tyler Hamilton. Emma O'Reilly was the team masseuse. Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Luis del Moral were the doctors that administered him with drugs and they were part of the same team. No rider from another team- no individual with anything personal to gain- has testified against him.

It is a joyous day for justice. It is a joyous day for cycling. It is a joyous day for all sport. The greatest fraud, the greatest crime, the greatest ever lie told in sport, has finally ended. I can't tell you how delighted I am.

And now to answer to some of the questions raised, to save you from reading through that essay up there:

@BluesChick: Yes, there is a statute of limitations, 8 years. But because it was systematic and the process was clearly started way before 2004, that has been rendered void and everything up until 1998 is fair game.

@Danelka: Yes and no. No, people were not doping to absurd levels during the early part of 1999 when Lance triggered cycling's second drug war. Yes, no one should be awarded the titles over those years- records should just be annulled totally. Also the 'everyone doped' argument is just so fundamentally wrong. Yes, his competitors were not riding au naturale- but there's no restriction to how much dope you can take. Lance pushed himself further down the line of the body's ability to absorb PEDs than anybody else. Also not all dopers are the same. At one end of the scale you have Armstrong with multi million dollar facilities and top notch doctors and access to the highest quality PEDs; at the other, you have Riccardo Riccò performing his own blood transfusions in a hotel room.

@milan.cech: I've mostly covered that above, but once again to repeat: He failed 13 tests over a 3 year period- and that's all that's known. Wait for the USADA to release all of their evidence, I can guarantee he would have failed about 25 tests in his career. Furthermore, sport in general, especially cycling, is full of people who doped for years and never got caught with a positive test. Lance's own contemporaries in the sport, such as Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, Alexandre Vinokourov, Alejandro Valverde, George Hincapie- all serve as examples. Moving beyond the world of cycling you have the likes of Marion Jones, Dwayne Chambers, Justin Gatlin, etc.

@Justin_3d: Thank you for your support. I was not the instigator. Kojo had been undermining my posts for quite a while before I snapped at him, and even in that thread, he attacked me first. I've put him on my ignore list now, I cannot deal with people like that.

@: Lol you should be able to get through this. It isn't science based like my arguments on Wiggins/Froome/Team Sky doping, I'm not using any power data here to support my argument, just what is known commonly. We still haven't seen the full extent of the mountains of evidence against him- the USADA should be releasing that in the near future, and also, Armstrong's former teammate and convicted doper/whistle-blower, Tyler Hamilton, is going to be realising his autobiography soon and given that he denounced Lance in court and publicly, we should see some more juicy stuff in there.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Here is a quick list of evidence:

-Eyewitness testimony.

Fellow team members

and convicted dopers,

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis,

have admitted under oath, that they

have seen Lance Armstrong receive performance enhancing drugs

at several points in his career. Landis further testified that he knew of a transaction in

2001 where Lance Armstrong sent a $300,000 bribe

to the president of the UCI, Hein Vebruggen,

to cover up a positive test

. His masseuse, Emma O’Reilly, has testified saying that

Lance had on one occasion approached her and asked for makeup to cover up needle marks

on his upper arm. She also testified that

in 1999, Lance Armstrong tested positive

for corticosteroids, which he explained away by getting his doctor at the time, Luis Garcia del Moral, to

create a backdated prescription for saddle sores

that he never had. The final line of eyewitness testimony are his two doctors over the period,

Dr. del Moral and Dr. Ferrari, both of whom have admitted under oath that they administered Armstrong with performance enhancing drugs.

They further testified that they were on no less than two occasions given a

20 minute tip off of an impending random drug search.

Lance used those twenty minutes to overdose on diuretic drugs

(masking agents) so that his urine sample would not show positive and

covered his upper arms with makeup to mask needle marks

. May I remind you these people have

no possible reason to lie

(because they are implicating themselves as accessories to the crime, and indeed, all have been sanctioned. Landis and Hamilton have lost their titles and been given life bans, the two doctors are banned from practicing medicine in the USA) and furthermore said these things under oath.

- Medical evidence.

Lance tested positive 13

times over his career for a variety of banned drugs. He did not, as he asserts, pass 500 tests. He only

attempted 236 and failed at least 13

. His power data further points to doping, Lance was outputting an average of 6.95 watts per kilogram on many days in the Tour, putting out an average wattage over the weeks of racing, of 500 watts.

It is physiologically impossible for humans

, even elite level athletes, to put out

wattages of greater than 450 watts or 5.5 watts/kg

for a prolonged period unless they have an extra 2-3 litres of blood flowing around their bloodstream, and he shattered both barriers with ease. In 1996, Lance’s blood tests revealed that his

Testosterone-Epitestosterone ratio was 9 to 1.

Normal humans are 1:1 and a ratio >4:1 is evidence of doping

.

- Circumstantial evidence.

Lance repeatedly, clinically ripped to shreds his nearest rivals

. He managed this despite

his rivals all having been caught

at some point in their career

as dopers.

How can a clean rider with little talent prior to 1999 so comprehensively crush dopers? How can anyone clean beat a doper?

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

@capriccioso, your mind is fucking google.

[Duppy Conqueror 1,451]

i`ll just add my bit and then i`d like to keep out of the subject.

it`s a sad thing as he was a great inspiration to so many,he indeed inspired me to fight my own health problems when there has been times that i`ve wanted to just let go and slide away . he hasn`t been my sole inspiration but he most certainly has been one of them

it`s sad that in these times when it seems like the media does not want anyone to have heroes anymore that he put himself in this position when he was a hero to so many but i am not gonna lay the boot into him now he`s down and am glad that atleast the most important race he won in his life nobody can take away from him the race he won to beat Cancer. just finishing 1 Tour de France after that was incredible enough. he may have won 7 whilst cheating,i don`t know maybe he would have won some of them anyway but even with help of some drugs they can take away his titles but he still completed what 9 Tour de France`s after beating cancer. he`s tarnished his reputation but still i think he deserves some respect for that. i`m not expecting anyone else to share my views nor am i trying to change anyones opinion but that is my own.

anyway, i`m done. thanks for reading.

[FormerRussianSpy 163]

Agreeing with Duppy, he was a inspiration to many ...and that has to count for something as far as inspiring people, improving people's lives etc.

It's just a shame hat he was essentially used as a marketing puppet to expand the cycling market in the US...as soon as he stopped making headlines, the agencies that had turned a blind eye during his career are now feeding him to the sharks. Shame on all parties, really

Still, his marketability produced a decent silver lining -- for the most part -- in the Livestrong charity.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Alright, he inspired a few people.

So did Hitler.

One good deed does not cancel out a lifetime of evil. Let's not forget that we are dealing with a vicious, cruel, vindictive man here- akin to a mob boss. We're not dealing with a gentleman who took a few products (such as Marco Pantani and Tyler Hamilton)- even if you ignore his doping I don't think anyone can take much inspiration from a bully. The way he treated his own masseuse, Emma O'Reilly, as well as fellow competitors and journalists who denounced doping in general (never used him as an example) is sickening. These people did not have it in for him, and even if they did, that's no excuse to intimidate them and hound them out of the sport.

He may have been an inspiration to some but look at all the people he has let down. His fellow competitors, however few of them, which competed clean. Those who sought to bring about an end to doping in the sport. His sponsors, primarily the US Postal Service- who's name has been shamed over something they had no control over. Cancer sufferers who looked up to him as a role model, with the attitude of "If he can do that, we can do anything as well"; he has let them down big time. And of course his own fans and fans of the sport.

[capriccioso 2,545]

@capriccioso, your mind is fucking google.

I wish. Cycling, doping and history aside, I'm a fucking idiot. Funnily enough the three topics bump into each other and complement each other really well

[capriccioso 2,545]

It's a fucking travesty if they award those titles at all. Records should just be annulled, if they must be redistributed, these should be the winners:

1999: Fernando Escartin (Spain), originally placed third.

2000: Fernando Escartin (Spain), originally placed eight.

2001: Andrey Kilivev (Kazakhstan), originally placed third.

2002: Jose Azvedo (Portugal), originally placed sixth.

2003: Haimar Zubeldia (Spain), originally placed fifth.

2004: Carlos Sastre (Spain), originally placed eight.

2005: Cadel Evans (Australia), originally placed eight.

Instead we'll end up with Zulle, Ullrich, Ullrich, Vinokourov, Ullrich, Kloden, Basso.

Also this list really is a bit lol, it shows the last 30 winners of the race. Red indicates convicted doper. A struck-out name indicates that they were stripped of the title. Black indicates that they are under suspicion; and green, that they are clean.

1982: Bernard Hinault (France)

1983: Laurent Fignon (France)

1984: Laurent Fignon (France)

1985: Bernard Hinault (France)

1986: Greg LeMond (USA)

1987: Stephen Roche (Ireland)

1988: Pedro Delgado (Spain)

1989: Greg LeMond (USA)

1990: Greg LeMond (USA)

1991: Miguel Indurain (Spain)

1992: Miguel Indurain (Spain)

1993: Miguel Indurain (Spain)

1994: Miguel Indurain (Spain)

1995: Miguel Indurain (Spain)

1996: Bjarne Riis (Denmark)

1997: Jan Ullrich (Germany)

1998: Marco Pantani (Italy)

1999: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2000: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2001: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2002: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2003: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2004: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2005: Lance Armstrong (USA)

2006: Floyd Landis (USA)

2007: Alberto Contador (Spain)

2008: Carlos Sastre (Spain)

2009: Alberto Contador (Spain)

2010: Alberto Contador (Spain)

2011: Cadel Evans (Australia)

2012: Bradley Wiggins (UK)

See a pattern? 1988 was when EPO was first widely used. All hail Greg, Sastre and Evans, the only clean winners of the race since 1990. We have an 18 year period between clean winners in LeMond and Sastre.

[FormerRussianSpy 163]

Alright, he inspired a few people.

So did Hitler.

For sure, I wasn't really saying that to defend his character, just qualifying the societal value of the archetypal hero that we love to glorify.

A bit of pedantry here... but just try not to use Hitler examples. It's the one-size-fits-all type of argument in ethics, and its so overused that it hardly proves a specific point. Again, just me being pedantic, a two-semester long course on western ethics has really done my head in