David Luiz

[Kojo 4,676]

Not everyone thinks he should be sold. I think he's one of the best CBs in the world right now to be honest. And let's says Guardiola does come next season, Luiz will flourish under him. He's the perfect type of CB for Guardiola.

Hm, I've said Luiz is one of the best CBs in the world and mentioned Guardiola... all in the same post. (*prepares for the bashing to come*)

That's going a bit too far mate.

[Corner 456]

That's going a bit too far mate.

It's my honest opinion though. It's David Luiz, he is always going to cause contrasting opinions between people. Similar to Mikel in that way.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Don't think those with that typical British mentality will ever like David Luiz.

He played a bad pass in the attacking third, the opposition had so much ground to cover, flawless counter attack btw, and there were enough players at the back (though Oscar switched off). To put all the blame on him for that goal would be ignorant.

Wooah on British Mentality - I like him he shows passion and tries!

DM is absolutely his best position when Terry is back

Iva + Terry at CB and Luiz in DM..

Nobody covered his run and he was the only fucker running so kudos to him - he could easily be a better Fellani

Those that want to sell him are those that think Torres is good enough to say - e.g. Irrelevant

[zolayes 14,489]

I think David will always be likely to make mistakes because of the risks he takes , That is why I'd like him him as far forward as possible even at times in the 3 behind the striker

[DYC. 7,542]

Wooah on British Mentality - I like him he shows passion and tries!

DM is absolutely his best position when Terry is back

Iva + Terry at CB and Luiz in DM..

Nobody covered his run and he was the only fucker running so kudos to him - he could easily be a better Fellani

Those that want to sell him are those that think Torres is good enough to say - e.g. Irrelevant

With British mentality I was referring to them preferring their CBs to stay at the back, keep everything very simple and just focus on defending. While the Dutch, Spanish & Brazilian for example are used to defenders pushing up, keeping the ball after winning it at the back instead kicking the ball out of play (unless there's no other option) etc.

[Muzchap 8,966]

With British mentality I was referring to them preferring their CBs to stay at the back, keep everything very simple and just focus on defending. While the Dutch, Spanish & Brazilian for example are used to defenders pushing up, keeping the ball after winning it at the back instead kicking the ball out of play (unless there's no other option) etc.

Phew !

I thought you meant overly critical, massively pessimistic and manic depressive

But you didn't so all cool

[YouNameIt 1,511]

Look at the first three pages of this thread, it's just amazing how everything turned out within two years, it's like he's gone from being one of the best defenders ever (potentially), to being a liability and should be sold.

Says who?

[Kojo 4,676]

Says who?

ItNameYou

[robsblubot 3,545]

It says a lot we are talking about David after a "thrilling" game against Leeds...

[Beepu 1,714]

Really if he stops clowning around and losing possession in dangerous areas he can be one of the best. Hes energetic and his interceptions are great just that stupid habit hes got

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

With British mentality I was referring to them preferring their CBs to stay at the back, keep everything very simple and just focus on defending. While the Dutch, Spanish & Brazilian for example are used to defenders pushing up, keeping the ball after winning it at the back instead kicking the ball out of play (unless there's no other option) etc.

I don't think it's just British thinking, I think it's a real reflection on what it takes to succeed in different leagues. You can be a successful defender in Spain or Brazil or Portugal and be a lot more loose defensively. In England (as in Germany and Italy) you need to defend first. Elite Premier League defenders have been guys like Terry, Adams, Vidic, Kompany, etc...It's not that they can't be skilled and good at moving the ball, the best ones are, it's that their job is first and foremost to defend.

[Spike 12,049]

I don't think it's just British thinking, I think it's a real reflection on what it takes to succeed in different leagues. You can be a successful defender in Spain or Brazil or Portugal and be a lot more loose defensively. In England (as in Germany and Italy) you need to defend first. Elite Premier League defenders have been guys like Terry, Adams, Vidic, Kompany, etc...It's not that they can't be skilled and good at moving the ball, the best ones are, it's that their job is first and foremost to defend.

I know, I know Bleacher Report. But give it a read.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1450478-modern-football-explaining-the-fall-of-kaka-ganso-and-the-rise-of-arturo-vidal

[DYC. 7,542]

I don't think it's just British thinking, I think it's a real reflection on what it takes to succeed in different leagues. You can be a successful defender in Spain or Brazil or Portugal and be a lot more loose defensively. In England (as in Germany and Italy) you need to defend first. Elite Premier League defenders have been guys like Terry, Adams, Vidic, Kompany, etc...It's not that they can't be skilled and good at moving the ball, the best ones are, it's that their job is first and foremost to defend.

You're just repeating what I already said though haha. I never said you can't be skilled or good at moving the ball, I was purely referring to the style of defenders of Davids's ilk. If Pique pushes up and Barca concedes a goal from a counter for example, they don't blame Pique for the goal. Most will wonder why no one covered him.

I only mentioned British but I didn't they say they're the only ones. Germans and Italians in general too like you said but they also produced attacking CBs, think Beckenbauer and Baresi (and they are know as the best they've had, go figure). But the game is quicker now so you get punished more.

You should see Kompany play for Belgium btw, different player. Dribbling from the back, pushing up and joining attacks, applying early pressure. At City he goes into English CB mode.

[robsblubot 3,545]

I don't think it's just British thinking, I think it's a real reflection on what it takes to succeed in different leagues. You can be a successful defender in Spain or Brazil or Portugal and be a lot more loose defensively. In England (as in Germany and Italy) you need to defend first. Elite Premier League defenders have been guys like Terry, Adams, Vidic, Kompany, etc...It's not that they can't be skilled and good at moving the ball, the best ones are, it's that their job is first and foremost to defend.

The problem is really with the definition of "defending." To you, it seems, it's about getting the ball away from your own box as quickly as possible.

Mine is very very different because football isn't that simple. If you simplify in the back, you simplify the play; it's all connected.

That's why I saw Cahill struggle defensively against better opposition, last weekend, while David Luiz had absolutely no problem stopping Corinthians' forwarders runs. That's defensive quality! How well you can turn your body and chase down a forwarder when he changes pace and/or direction (which is what the great FW do).

The aspects of David Luiz game that are criticized here are the easiest to correct; perhaps even just a talk by the manager asking not to do this or that and stay deep, though I suspect the exact opposite takes place: managers (plural) specifically ask him to do exactly what people here dislike.

Now other players who do not have David's first touch (notice how he needs a single touch to stop and control the ball?) won't improve that much; it's very difficult to improve the technical aspects of the game.

It's utterly ridiculous to say that you cannot misplace a pass upfield against freaking Leeds otherwise you concede a goal. The team is obviously unbalanced.

Concerning BPL defensive prowess, the numbers (spec number of goals conceded) seem to indicate a very different story.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The problem is really with the definition of "defending." To you, it seems, it's about getting the ball away from your own box as quickly as possible.

Mine is very very different because football isn't that simple. If you simplify in the back, you simplify the play; it's all connected.

That's why I saw Cahill struggle defensively against better opposition, last weekend, while David Luiz had absolutely no problem stopping Corinthians' forwarders runs. That's defensive quality! How well you can turn your body and chase down a forwarder when he changes pace and/or direction (which is what the great FW do).

The aspects of David Luiz game that are criticized here are the easiest to correct; perhaps even just a talk by the manager asking not to do this or that and stay deep, though I suspect the exact opposite takes place: managers (plural) specifically ask him to do exactly what people here dislike.

Now other players who do not have David's first touch (notice how he needs a single touch to stop and control the ball?) won't improve that much; it's very difficult to improve the technical aspects of the game.

It's utterly ridiculous say that you cannot misplace a pass upfield against freaking Leeds otherwise you concede a goal. The team is obviously unbalanced.

Concerning BPL defensive prowess, the numbers (spec number of goals conceded) seem to indicate a very different story.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. I never said that defending is getting the ball away from the box as quickly as possible. If I had to define defending in a short sentence I'd say it was just marking your man and being positionally aware. Luiz's issues are clearly not easy to fix because he has not fixed them. Rafa is Luiz's 4th manger under Chelsea and I doubt any of them have told him "hey David, go wherever you want". He either hasn't listened to his managers or just can't control himself. And yes, he was absolutely at fault for the goal against Leeds. It was not a misplaced long ball or anything. Chelsea were bombing forward. We were moving into an attacking position and that's what they are supposed to do and Luiz was about 30 yards more forward than he safely should have been and tried a cute pass which failed miserably. Defenders can get that forward but they have to be extremely cautious if they do because if you give up possession, the other team will counter with numbers . And it wasn't about team imbalance. Oscar was back and Ivanovic and Azpilicueta were back (and Bertrand was on his man a little behind the play) but Leeds got four men forward and because Luiz was way out of position, we had 3 men back. We were imbalanced because Luiz made us imbalanced. If it were MIkel instead of Oscar, he wouldn't have looked so lost, but a 4-3 counter-attack is difficult to defend no matter what.

As for the Premier League being the best defensive league, I never said it was. It used to be Italy by a wide margin, but I don't know anymore. Anyway, the numbers would be useless in deciding because you'd also have to take in account the best offensive teams as well. I would certainly be very wary of buying (many) elite defenders from Spain and thinking they'd be elite in the Premier League in a way I wouldn't about top defenders in Italy.

[robsblubot 3,545]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. I never said that defending is getting the ball away from the box as quickly as possible. If I had to define defending in a short sentence I'd say it was just marking your man and being positionally aware. Luiz's issues are clearly not easy to fix because he has not fixed them. Rafa is Luiz's 4th manger under Chelsea and I doubt any of them have told him "hey David, go wherever you want". He either hasn't listened to his managers or just can't control himself. And yes, he was absolutely at fault for the goal against Leeds. It was not a misplaced long ball or anything. Chelsea were bombing forward. We were moving into an attacking position and that's what they are supposed to do and Luiz was about 30 yards more forward than he safely should have been and tried a cute pass which failed miserably. Defenders can get that forward but they have to be extremely cautious if they do because if you give up possession, the other team will counter with numbers . And it wasn't about team imbalance. Oscar was back and Ivanovic and Azpilicueta were back (and Bertrand was on his man a little behind the play) but Leeds got four men forward and because Luiz was way out of position, we had 3 men back. We were imbalanced because Luiz made us imbalanced. If it were MIkel instead of Oscar, he wouldn't have looked so lost, but a 4-3 counter-attack is difficult to defend no matter what.

As for the Premier League being the best defensive league, I never said it was. It used to be Italy by a wide margin, but I don't know anymore. Anyway, the numbers would be useless in deciding because you'd also have to take in account the best offensive teams as well. I would certainly be very wary of buying (many) elite defenders from Spain and thinking they'd be elite in the Premier League in a way I wouldn't about top defenders in Italy.

One question: how do you know?

I for one find it hard to believe all these 4 managers asked Luiz not to "bomb" forward and still had Luiz as a first choice CB even though Luiz apparently did not do as requested...

Another piece of evidence: were we any less unbalanced when Luiz did not play? Like when our defense was shit with Cahill and Iva against West Ham.

Also, one player cannot make a team unbalanced. His run should either have been covered, OR the manager should've instructed him not to make the run(s).

You cannot have it both ways (that David is the cause of the unbalance). If he were instructed not to make the run, and still did (according to you has been doing that through 4 different managers), then why does he still play?!? If he was instructed to make the runs (to me the only logical explanation), then why did the other players NOT cover him?

Because the team is unbalanced and I have my own theories of why: something to do with math and number of players defending.

Final point: David should always be making forward runs when we play a shitty side like Leeds.

[Corner 456]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. I never said that defending is getting the ball away from the box as quickly as possible. If I had to define defending in a short sentence I'd say it was just marking your man and being positionally aware. Luiz's issues are clearly not easy to fix because he has not fixed them. Rafa is Luiz's 4th manger under Chelsea and I doubt any of them have told him "hey David, go wherever you want". He either hasn't listened to his managers or just can't control himself. And yes, he was absolutely at fault for the goal against Leeds. It was not a misplaced long ball or anything. Chelsea were bombing forward. We were moving into an attacking position and that's what they are supposed to do and Luiz was about 30 yards more forward than he safely should have been and tried a cute pass which failed miserably. Defenders can get that forward but they have to be extremely cautious if they do because if you give up possession, the other team will counter with numbers . And it wasn't about team imbalance. Oscar was back and Ivanovic and Azpilicueta were back (and Bertrand was on his man a little behind the play) but Leeds got four men forward and because Luiz was way out of position, we had 3 men back. We were imbalanced because Luiz made us imbalanced. If it were MIkel instead of Oscar, he wouldn't have looked so lost, but a 4-3 counter-attack is difficult to defend no matter what.

As for the Premier League being the best defensive league, I never said it was. It used to be Italy by a wide margin, but I don't know anymore. Anyway, the numbers would be useless in deciding because you'd also have to take in account the best offensive teams as well. I would certainly be very wary of buying (many) elite defenders from Spain and thinking they'd be elite in the Premier League in a way I wouldn't about top defenders in Italy.

I can understand where both of you are coming from, and I agree with you Toronto when you say Luiz has to be more cautious with his forward runs.

I do believe that managers are instructing Luiz to bring the ball out of defence. He has the technical ability and vision to do so which is why it makes sense for him to do it, and it's also why I believe he is being instructed to do so. It makes us less predictable when on the attack too. But like you said, he HAS to be more cautious. It's his decision making that can be questionable at times, and that's putting it generously. He has the technical ability to bring the ball out of defence and try to find a killer pass, but he needs to know when and when not to do this. That's where he goes wrong a lot of the time. And sometimes he bring the ball upfield, and tries a little dink when a through ball was on.

If you watch Barcelona play for 90 minutes, you will see Pique bomb forward up the pitch, sometimes from his own box to well within the opposition's half. He will look for a killer pass or it can be used to just get the team up the field and build the attack from there. But Barcelona are so comfortable in possession that the whole team changes shape to cover for him. Sometimes you will see Busquets cover for him, but a lot of the time Barca will change formation completely. Another thing is that Pique's decision making is a lot better than Luiz's.

I think most of the blame can go to Luiz for when we concede a goal as a result of him bombing forward. But there are other reasons. Chelsea are not Barcelona, let's face it. Our players haven't been at the club since they were 10 years old, they haven't been playing with each other for the last 15 years and they haven't been playing the same style of football with each other for the last 15 years.

A great point that you touched on was how the responsibilities of defenders differ between leagues. Luiz is the perfect defender for Barcelona or most other La Liga teams (I actually expect Barcelona to come knocking on our door for Luiz when Puyol starts mentioning retirement). What annoys me is when people say 'Luiz would only be good in La Liga', suggesting that defending in the Premier League is much more difficult than in La Liga. Can you imagine Cahill, Terry, Ferdinand, Vidic or Lescott playing in La Liga? They would probably do a good job of it and learn to adapt, just like Luiz has done here. But they would have a lot of problems, just like Luiz here.

Basically, unless Chelsea are planning on completely revamping our defence and buying defenders who are a lot more comfortable on the ball and understand possession football much more, then Luiz we are going to continue to concede goals from time to time because of Luiz's forward runs and his questionable decision making. The Chelsea board baffle me sometimes. A lot of people saw this coming: they bought a lot of tiny midfielders comfortable on the ball, and completely failed to consider how the defence would deal with this new style of play. If Guardiola does come here, I can't imagine him playing Ivanovic and Cahill much and I'd expect to see them sold and replaced (assuming Guardiola would persist with possession football). I can't imagine him selling Terry however. Ignoring the obvious reasons why Terry, a Chelsea legend, shouldn't be sold... I could see Guardiola using Terry in a 'Puyol role.' Puyol has no pace but has a lot of intelligence and great anticipation on the field, just like Terry. His ability to anticipate situations is unbelievable, I've never seen anything like it.

[zolayes 14,489]

I know, I know Bleacher Report. But give it a read.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1450478-modern-football-explaining-the-fall-of-kaka-ganso-and-the-rise-of-arturo-vidal

I did and disagree with the main premise that the role for the specialist will disappear.