Politics & Stuff

[Vegetable 830]

  On 14/08/2023 at 07:55, cosmicway said:

Could they have chosen doctors-lawyers-scientists to do that ? Rather not, they could n't so they engaged the low life elements.
This is the truth.
There is nothing else besides.

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Well, easy if it's only that. Here in the east it's hard not to point that the "hooligan" groups are often pretty much drug cartels and other kind of organized crime, with football being just an addition to have a little fight from time to time, holding the clubs and sometimes cities hostage to their influence.

[YorkshireBlue 3,175]

  On 14/08/2023 at 08:19, cosmicway said:

Be sensible. It would just peter out.

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You can be as sensible as you like, fighting over football will never Peter out.

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 14/08/2023 at 08:20, Vegetable said:

Well, easy if it's only that. Here in the east it's hard not to point that the "hooligan" groups are often pretty much drug cartels and other kind of organized crime, with football being just an addition to have a little fight from time to time, holding the clubs and sometimes cities hostage to their influence.

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They would disappear with the Thatcher method.
But the politicians don't dare to.
Here is a funny story for you.

In 2005 Olympiakos fans set fire to a stadium. The match never started and Olympiakos had points deducted.
But they wanted the sentence to be repealed.
That was January 2005 and some weeks later -after the deduction of the points- I 'm invited by some crowd to attend a certain function in an orphanage in Piraeus.
It was for the new year and in Greece we have belated new year celebrations for up to February.
The folks who invited me was a local club of race goers (horse racing fans) so nothing to do with football, I went there and nobody knew I was even a football supporter or anything.
So I sit on a table, they offered us candy and waited for the mayor to make a speech, mainly about the activities of the orphanage I expected.
To my surprise I noticed various pieces of small paper on every table and out of curiosity I picked some of them to see what they were.
So what do I read ? It was poems with lewd verses about the other teams !
I did n't make a comment, sat and waited for the mayor.
So the mayor comes, there was a small band playing music as well and he made his speech.
What he said was "Pireaus port will burn if this sentence is not repealed - I came here to warn the government minister and everybody !"
The govt was New Democracy and what sort of mayor was that ?
He was a New Democracy mayor who the year before managed to defeat the left wing former mayor.
So -in effect- if New Democracy wanted to win in Piraeus again they had better behave !
True to form the sentence was repealed, the match was played, Olympiakos won 2-0 and at the end of the season won the league by the narrowest of margins - thanks to the reprieve.



 

Edited August 14, 2023 by cosmicway

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 14/08/2023 at 08:25, YorkshireBlue said:

You can be as sensible as you like, fighting over football will never Peter out.

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What won't happen is politicians getting their act together and also politicians of different countries working together I 'm afraid.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 14/08/2023 at 07:55, cosmicway said:

s there a cure ?
There is and it is called Margaret Thatcher.

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🤣 🤣

Totally wrong I am afraid. She made some reactive public statements after Heysel when Liverpool  fans murdered 39 people. She tried to get her rat Sports Secretary Colin Moynihan introduce ID cards. It fell flat on its arse. The 80s when Thatcher was in power were the hooligan Glory years. Away games for Chelsea were like invasions, absolute carnage. The decade culminated in Bradford and Hillsborough disasters thanks to the tory press, such as the Sun having League tables of the best hooligans. The 80s were the decade of hooliganism, the ten years Thatcher presided over it.

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 14/08/2023 at 09:12, Fulham Broadway said:

🤣 🤣

Totally wrong I am afraid. She made some reactive public statements after Heysel when Liverpool  fans murdered 39 people. She tried to get her rat Sports Secretary Colin Moynihan introduce ID cards. It fell flat on its arse. The 80s when Thatcher was in power were the hooligan Glory years. Away games for Chelsea were like invasions, absolute carnage. The decade culminated in Bradford and Hillsborough disasters thanks to the tory press, such as the Sun having League tables of the best hooligans. The 80s were the decade of hooliganism, the ten years Thatcher presided over it.

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I remember England v. Paraguay in 1986, the match before the hand of god.
It was a stadium full of NF hooligans. When England players were walking outside to collect balls for a throw in they were being shrouded by an NF flag hanging from the terraces (much to their dismay).
But nevertheless M.T. made a name and afterwards very little things happen when as rightly you say it was absolute carnage.
So whatever, I 'm talking about Thatcher method rather than Thatcherism as such.

Edited August 14, 2023 by cosmicway

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 14/08/2023 at 10:23, cosmicway said:

I remember England v. Paraguay in 1986, the match before the hand of god.
It was a stadium full of NF hooligans. When England players were walking outside to collect balls for a throw in they were being shrouded by an NF flag hanging from the terraces (much to their dismay).
But nevertheless M.T. made a name and afterwards very little things happen when as rightly you say it was absolute carnage.
So whatever, I 'm talking about Thatcher method rather than Thatcherism as such.

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Don't know about Greece, but here Thatchers policies made hooliganism worse. It only started dying out in the late eighties and early nineties when people started necking ecstasy, getting loved up, and going to raves, rather than doing coke, speed and booze and getting into fights

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 14/08/2023 at 12:00, Fulham Broadway said:

Don't know about Greece, but here Thatchers policies made hooliganism worse. It only started dying out in the late eighties and early nineties when people started necking ecstasy, getting loved up, and going to raves, rather than doing coke, speed and booze and getting into fights

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Well, in Greece they think Thatcher was a heroic figure, even those who are anti-Tory.
But maybe the five year ban was not her idea. Uefa ordered it and Thatcher knowing of it announced it first. This is what I read elsewhere.
I strongly believe governments and UEFA could stop hooliganism for good, but a few posts above I describe their antics.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 14/08/2023 at 12:06, cosmicway said:

Well, in Greece they think Thatcher was a heroic figure, even those who are anti-Tory.
But maybe the five year ban was not her idea. Uefa ordered it and Thatcher knowing of it announced it first. This is what I read elsewhere.
I strongly believe governments and UEFA could stop hooliganism for good, but a few posts above I describe their antics.

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Five year ban was nothing to do with her, UEFA imposed it after Liverpool murdered 39 Italian fans

[Vesper 29,406]

BREAKING: Trump charged in Georgia 2020 election probe, his fourth indictment

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/14/trump-indictment-georgia-election-2020/

ATLANTA — Former president Donald Trump and 18 others were criminally charged in Georgia on Monday in connection with efforts to overturn Joe Biden’s 2020 victory in the state, according to an indictment made public late Monday night.

Trump was charged with 13 counts, including violating the state’s racketeering act, soliciting a public officer to violate their oath, conspiring to impersonate a public officer, conspiring to commit forgery in the first degree and conspiring to file false documents.

The historic indictment, the latest to implicate the former president, follows a 2½-year investigation by Fulton County District Attorney Fani T. Willis (D). The probe was launched after audio leaked from a January 2021 phone call during which Trump urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) to question the validity of thousands of ballots, especially in the heavily Democratic Atlanta area, and said he wanted to “find” the votes to erase his 2020 loss in the state.

Willis’s investigation quickly expanded to other alleged efforts by him or his supporters, including trying to thwart the electoral college process, harassing election workers, spreading false information about the voting process in Georgia and compromising election equipment in a rural county. Trump has long decried the Georgia investigation as a “political witch hunt,” defending his calls to Raffensperger and others as “perfect.”

There are a grand total of 41 charges brought against 19 defendants in the 98-page indictment. Not all face the same counts, but all have been charged with violating the Georgia Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. Among those charged are Rudy Giuliani, the former New York mayor who served as Trump’s personal attorney after the election; Trump’s former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows; and several Trump advisers, including attorneys John Eastman and Kenneth Chesebro, architects of a scheme to create slates of alternate Trump electors.

Also indicted were two Georgia-based lawyers advocating on Trump’s behalf, Ray S. Smith II, and Robert Cheeley; a senior campaign adviser, Mike Roman, who helped plan the elector meeting; and two prominent Georgia Republicans who served as electors: former GOP chairman David Shafer and former GOP finance chairman Shawn Still.

Several lesser known players who participated in efforts to reverse Trump’s defeat in Georgia were also indicted, including three people accused of harassing Fulton County election worker Ruby Freeman. They are Stephen Cliffgard Lee, Harrison Floyd and Trevian Kutti. The latter is a former publicist for R. Kelly and associate of Kanye West.

A final group of individuals charged in the indictment allegedly participated in an effort to steal election-equipment data in rural Coffee County, Ga. They are former Coffee County elections supervisor Misty Hampton, former Coffee County GOP chair Cathy Latham and Georgia businessman Scott Hall.

Trump was indicted in Washington, D.C., earlier this month in a separate Justice Department probe into his various attempts to keep his grip on power during the chaotic aftermath of his 2020 defeat. Some aspects of that four-count federal case, led by special counsel Jack Smith, overlaps with Willis’s sprawling probe, which accuses Trump and his associates of a broad, criminal enterprise to reverse Joe Biden’s election victory in Georgia.

But the Fulton County indictment, issued by a grand jury and made public Monday night, is far more encompassing and detailed than Smith’s ongoing federal investigation.

Prosecutors brought charges around five separate subject areas, including false statements by Trump allies, including Giuliani, to the Georgia legislature; the breach of voting data in Coffee County, Ga.; calls Trump made to state officials including Raffensperger seeking to overturn Biden’s victory; the harassment of election workers and the creation of a slate of alternate electors to undermine the legitimate vote. Those charged in the case were implicated in certain parts of what prosecutors presented as a larger conspiracy to undermine the election

Willis had signaled for months that she planned to use Georgia’s expansive anti-racketeering statutes that allow prosecutors not only to charge in-state wrongdoing but to use activities in other states to prove criminal intent in Georgia. The statute is one of the most expansive in the country and is broader than federal law in how prosecutors can define a criminal enterprise or conspiracy.

The indictment alleges that the enterprise “constituted a criminal organization whose members and associates engaged in various related criminal activities including, but not limited to, false statements and writings, impersonating a public officer, forgery, filing false documents, influencing witnesses, computer theft, computer trespass, computer invasion of privacy, conspiracy to defraud the state [and] acts involving theft and perjury.”

In January 2022, Willis requested an unusual special purpose grand jury be convened to continue the probe, citing the reluctance of witnesses who would not speak to prosecutors without a subpoena. The investigative body of 23 jurors and three alternates picked from a pool of residents from Atlanta and its suburbs was given full subpoena power for documents and the ability to call witnesses — though it could not issue indictments, only recommendations in the case.

Over roughly eight months, the panel heard from 75 witnesses — including key Trump advisers including Giuliani, Meadows and U.S. Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), who waged a failed legal battle all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court to block his subpoena before ultimately testifying.

The panel also heard from several key witnesses in the investigation, including Raffensperger and Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R), who were on the other end of aggressive lobbying efforts by Trump and his associates to overturn Trump’s loss in the state.

In January, the special grand jury concluded its work and issued a final report on its investigation, which was largely kept under seal by the judge who oversaw the panel.

Fulton County Superior Court Judge Robert McBurney cited “due process” concerns for “potential future defendants” as Willis considered charges in the case. But in February, McBurney released a five-page excerpt of the report — including a section in which the panel concluded that some witnesses may have lied under oath during their testimony and recommended that charges be filed.

The panel’s forewoman later confirmed that the special grand jury had recommended multiple indictments — though she declined to say of who.

Trump’s attorneys later sought to disqualify Willis and her office from the case — citing Willis’s public comments about the investigation — and quash the final report and any evidence gathered by the special purpose grand jury. The motions were rejected by McBurney and the Georgia Supreme Court, which ruled that Trump had no legal standing to stop an investigation before charges were filed.

In the spring, amid security concerns, Willis took the unusual step of telling law enforcement that she planned to announce her charging decision in August. Because the special grand jury could not issue indictments, prosecutors presented their case to a regular grand jury sworn in last month, which began hearing the case Monday.

Trump’s attorneys are likely to immediately seek to have the case thrown out, reviving their complaints about Willis and the use of a special grand jury in the case.

Trump has intensified his attacks on Willis and other prosecutors examining his activities, describing them as “vicious, horrible people” and “mentally sick.” Trump has referred to Willis, who is Black, as the “racist DA from Atlanta.” His 2024 campaign included her in a recent video attacking prosecutors investigating Trump. Willis has generally declined to respond directly to Trump’s attacks, but in a rare exception, she said in an email last week sent to the entire district attorney’s office that Trump’s ad contained “derogatory and false information about me” and ordered her employees to ignore it.

“You may not comment in any way on the ad or any of the negativity that may be expressed against me, your colleagues, this office in coming days, weeks or months,” Willis wrote in the email, obtained by The Washington Post. “We have no personal feelings against those we investigate or prosecute and we should not express any. This is business, it will never be personal.”

Still, Willis has repeatedly raised concerns about security as her investigation has progressed, citing Trump’s “alarming” rhetoric and the racist threats she and her staff have received. Willis is often accompanied by armed guards at public appearances, and security at her office and her residence was increased even more in recent days ahead of the expected charging announcement, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive security matters.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Vesper

[Thor 2,486]

Trump is a weird one. 

All his actual views from an economic sense are actually very left leaning. But the left hate him due to the fact he is a terrible figure head from an image perspective. 

I'm not sure why the right like him so much. All of his actual views don't align with their economic philosophies, but I guess his rhetoric or a portion that is most visible does - hence he is okay. 

[cosmicway 1,333]

THE MAP OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM IN EUROPE

From what I have heard -without being certain- I believe football hooliganism exists in the following countries:

Cyprus - Greece - Turkey - Serbia - Croatia - Italy - France - Spain

I go from east to west.
Also Ukraine but maybe after the war they stopped doing these things.

Among those how many have carried out actions in foreign territory ?
I know the English in the old days before Heysel, the Croats and the Serbs sometimes. Others ?
 

 

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 19/08/2023 at 22:19, cosmicway said:

THE MAP OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM IN EUROPE

From what I have heard -without being certain- I believe football hooliganism exists in the following countries:

Cyprus - Greece - Turkey - Serbia - Croatia - Italy - France - Spain

I go from east to west.
Also Ukraine but maybe after the war they stopped doing these things.

Among those how many have carried out actions in foreign territory ?
I know the English in the old days before Heysel, the Croats and the Serbs sometimes. Others ?
 

 

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The English still have plenty of hooligans

but

you forgot by far the worst of all

Russia

and Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, (not Norway or Finland so much) and Belarus all have some nasty AF lads, especially internal derbies

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 15/08/2023 at 04:50, Thor said:

All his actual views from an economic sense are actually very left leaning

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LOL

he is the ultimate kleptocrat, and a super tool of the giant exploitative firms and banks

he is a HUGE deregulator

he HATES unions

his 'I am for the little guy' is as fake as a three dollar bill

he is a breathtakingly massive grifter, scams so many poor RWers along with anything and anyone else that crosses his path

that fucker is as left wing as Kante and KK are white

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 20/08/2023 at 07:50, Vesper said:

The English still have plenty of hooligans

but

you forgot by far the worst of all

Russia

and Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, (not Norway or Finland so much) and Belarus all have some nasty AF lads, especially internal derbies

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Russia has football hooligans too ? And from all those who are known to cause trouble abroad ?
 

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 20/08/2023 at 09:05, cosmicway said:

Russia has football hooligans too ? And from all those who are known to cause trouble abroad ?
 

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they have the most violent, massive, organised hooligans on the planet

[KEVINAA 110]

Wagner group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin is killed in plane crash: Jet carrying warlord 'falls from the sky' north of Moscow two months after failed coup

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12437935/Private-plane-believed-transporting-Wagner-chief-Yevgeny-Prigozhin-crashes-Russia.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by KEVINAA

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 23/08/2023 at 17:29, KEVINAA said:

Wagner group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin is killed in plane crash: Jet carrying warlord 'falls from the sky' north of Moscow two months after failed coup

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12437935/Private-plane-believed-transporting-Wagner-chief-Yevgeny-Prigozhin-crashes-Russia.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

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