Politics & Stuff

[Alee. 182]

Very insightful. I haven't heard much about this except for the odd bit on the news. The situation sounds complicated. May I ask, how does the US feel about the operation. Obviously, they won't want Taliban to gain much power, but similarly I don't imagine they'd want them completely crushed because they could come in handy as was the case in Syria.

The US pressure is one of the major reason an operation was carried out in the first place. The war was escalated because of Pakistan allying with the USA and its these very groups the US has tried to eliminate through drone strikes. So I doubt the US has many reservations about the situation. Ofcourse, no one knows what goes on behind the doors in the corridors of power! Hidden agendas are everywhere, but I'd rather not dwell on conspiracy theories yet.

Sounds familiar . They all, (Islamic militant groups), follow the same agenda I guess. They also tend to follow a similar pattern to enforce their power. They tend to create pockets of instability, from which they can operate and carry out further operations. I am glad your country is not taking this lightly. They only way to get rid of them is by eliminating them. Ideological reform doesn't seem to be working much (at least in Egypt it has failed during the era of President Sadat 1970-1980). However, it will definitely be hard if they are residing in an area with civilian population. This means your military would have to carry out continuous precise operation which will definitely make this a long term war. Intelligence will be a huge factor these operations.

Exactly. We've been trying ideological reform with a decade of 'moderate enlightenment'. But the lack of government control and illiteracy in remote areas of the country makes that a very difficult task and all we've done is widened the urban-rural social and ideological divide.

[Fernando 6,585]

@Mohammed Seif, I have a question since you always give me good feedback when ever it comes to middle east stuff.

Giving the protest and such against Israel attacking Gaza and hitting places like school and such, I have to ask one thing.

Is there a reason they actually hit those targets on purpose?

Cause Israel is a country, a sovereign nation, and as such in this common era it's rare to commit such atrocities without any cause.

So it leads me to ask, does this happen because Hamas a terrorist organization uses schools, hospital and such considered safe heaven to launch rockets and defend themselves?

If this is the case, then what course it leaves a nation to defend itself?

I'm sure if USA was on the receiving end being hit frequently by rockets from a terrorist organization that uses kids and defenseless people as shield then it leaves no option.

[Fernando 6,585]

I know this question hasn't been directed to me, nor am I very knowledgable here. But you're mistaken in thinking that Israel's rockets are Only hitting those places you mentioned. Schools and hospitals are among the many, many places that were hit.

Case in point, it was only a while back that 4 children who were near the beach were killed, minutes after playing football. And there have been many cases that members here should know of that relates to my point. In my humble opinion, they try to target the places where people have hope of safety. That way they not only get efficiency but also deal a major psychological blow to the civilians who think they have any hope of surviving.

After slowly torturing them for years, they want to completely break their spirits about having any kind of hope of staying so that they see the futility of fighting in any way. Whether it be by military or determination of surviving through poverty and other major psychological battles they face everyday.

What you see now is decades of slowly wiping out an entire nation. The goal of the destruction of people's livelihood is to bring about a phase when there is no real Palestenian in Palestine. That's why the actions they carry out are so massive when you consider the emotional (and moral) consequences of it.

...atleast, that's what I think. God knows best.

The rocket by the beach is just a byproduct of the conflict.

If you knew about the deaths that happened in the Iraq conflict when usa was there you wouldn't bring such things.

Is not like the country meant it.

When you go to war you will get these types of casualties.

Moreover the Palestinian state doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because when you side yourself with a terrorist organization your no longer in control of your sovereign.

[Fernando 6,585]

So are the 1000+ people that have already died, yes. You call them byproducts, I call them unjust massacres.

I don't know about all that, so I won't speak about it.

A war is fought between two relatively similar parties that have power. When you kill a cockroach it's not a war, for example. When you reply to a spit on your foot with a bullet shot to the spitter's head, and his family's, it's not war. It's an unjust killing.

Perhaps you're right. But the Palestenian's sure do exist. And they're dying on their own land, whatever you may want to call it.

I'm not going to defend Hamas here. But the people have been forced to make that choice anyway, I think. You wouldn't have an organisation like Hamas in existence if you didn't have Israel's immoral existence in a land that they displaced more than 700,000 people from. They started the fire, so why would they complain about the smoke?

Yes people dying is a byproduct of any war.

Study past war men.

It has happened in many wars that usa has been, in major conflicts of European nations and what not.

Israel is at war with Hamas.

Palestinian is lost its past when they sided with a terrorist organization.

Israel would never have enter Gaza if it wasn't for this terrorist organization constantly firing rockets their way.

Israel protects itself and has gone to war with Hamas.

Which should have happened a long time ago.

The problem will be if they don't completely get rid of Hamas because all these casualties would have been for nothing.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

@Mohammed Seif, I have a question since you always give me good feedback when ever it comes to middle east stuff.

Giving the protest and such against Israel attacking Gaza and hitting places like school and such, I have to ask one thing.

Is there a reason they actually hit those targets on purpose?

Cause Israel is a country, a sovereign nation, and as such in this common era it's rare to commit such atrocities without any cause.

So it leads me to ask, does this happen because Hamas a terrorist organization uses schools, hospital and such considered safe heaven to launch rockets and defend themselves?

If this is the case, then what course it leaves a nation to defend itself?

I'm sure if USA was on the receiving end being hit frequently by rockets from a terrorist organization that uses kids and defenseless people as shield then it leaves no option.

Ok let us start with the first question, is there a reason to hit those targets on purpose. The answer according to Israel is Yes! The given excuse is the usual that has been said for decades PRIOR TO THE EXISTENCE OF HAMAS. You have to ask yourself a question, can there be such an excuse for such a long period of time? My I remind you the same excuses were used against Arafat, when Palestinians had only ROCKS. Same has been used against Lebanon, when Israel was clearly the aggressor.

Regarding that atrocities are not common, all you have to do is check the UN. Israel, has been condemned many times and has been constantly ignoring all UN resolutions and decisions. So the morality of Israel is being questioned here.

Everyone here agrees that Hamas is a terrorist group. (Atleast that is what I got from different people who contribute constructively to this topic). Having said that, there are no clear or solid evidence that Hamas have been using schools and hospitals. Again that same excuse was used in 2008 where over 700 civilians, who did not contribute to violence according to different human rights organizations (including b't salem, an Israeli organization), were massacred. Only 3 Israeli civilians were killed and 10 Israeli soldiers were killed, 4 died due to friendly fire. I am stating these numbers to draw a comparison with the Numbers that will be announced after all this is over. Currently there are over a 1000 dead Palestinians dead. According to UN estimations 70%-80% are civilians. Ofcourse when this is over and bodies are going to be recovered from underneath the ruins, the numbers will increase assuming this ends as we speak (which is not the case). Now let us look at the rockets fired. In 2008 they were estimated as a couple of 100 rockets. This current conflict estimates a 1500 fired. Israeli casualties are currently estimated to be 3 civilians and 42 soldiers. i.e, the actions of Israel in 2008 we a COMPLETE FAILURE AND ONLY RESULTED IN MAKING HAMAS STRONGER AND MORE CIVILIAN DEATHS.

With very LIMITED COVERAGE, we witnessed incidents that indicate that Israel is just committing genocide. Choulo has posted a few already in the previous pages and other members. The killing of the four kids playing football in a non hostile area on the beach and late shelling of the UNRWA shelter that had nothing in it. It is the fourth UN shelter to be bombed. There is no solid evidence of the "human shield argument" what so ever. It is just an excuse. Lately, in the non hostile West Bank, Palestinians were killed in a demonstrations. The human rights (again Israeli), have said that there were no evidence that Palestinians used fire arms. Yet they were shot and sniped.

There is no excuse what so ever for the disproportionate attack on Gaza. Israel, has the one of the most advance intelligence and offensive/defensive arsenal, to take out specif targets without causing civilian casualties. This is not a myth or an assumption as Israel has done that before when it WANTED TO DO SO.

Let us look at the situation in Gaza. You have millions who are exiled, and 100s of thousands who are refugees in the country where they and their families where born. Are they getting houses build? No. Do they get their basic survival needs such as food and water? No. Ofcourse, if they are not getting those, then the question of security, health and education is irrelevant as the answer is already known or can be logically deduced. Yet Israel still targets homes, schools, hospitals and the already deteriorating infrastructure. There has been many solutions given to this situation. It was called the two state solution based on the borders of 1967 which the entire wold and the Palestinians have agreed to. But ofcourse as Israel chooses to ignore that, and continue with their settlements on the occupied territory (according to the UN), the solution cannot be implemented. And that again is PRIOR TO HAMAS.

Now regarding the U.S, that is a bad case for argument. The U.S has committed a lot of war crimes also in the name of defending itself. You can refer to the millions dead in Iraq. Was there an excuse? Ofcourse not. All there was, were fabrications carried out by the Bush administration and the media in order to portray this as a "war on terror". Shortly, they U.S was exposed when NO EVIDENCE what so ever of WMDs where found. The U.S then, used the excuse of "inserting democracy". We all know how that turned out. That was a crime against humanity. Whether the international community condemns it or not, that is another issue. Even many Americans know that including the ones who served in the military. Not to mention the use of forbidden weapons that has caused mutations in unborn kids.

My country has a history of 3 wars with Israel (1956, 1967 and 1973), so we understand how the Israeli military works. Lebanon has had its shares of massacres condemned by the international community so you can get the insight of Choulo on this matter. But if you think that we are biased because we are Arabs, there are many respectful members here who come from a neutral prospective and are known to be level headed so you can also take their point of view. Fulham, Stingray, Peace, and others (whom I apologize if I didn't mention). Even better, you can check out the UN and human rights reports.

Hope than answers your question.

[Fernando 6,585]

No not really, because it still left me with the biggest question I had from the beginning.

Is Hamas using hospital, un refuge and school to fire rockets from?

Tell me, have in the past terrorist organization used any means necessary to get what they wanted?

The biggest mistake I think is the world thinks that any peace can come when dealing with Palestinian nation.

Because Hamas is a terrorist organization and one thing we know is that we don't negotiate with terrorist.

Per usa yes we all know that Iraq was all a hoax and fabricated.

But was using it as an example being the last big war from an advanced country in which casualties happen.

That being said I still find it hard that Israel would target such building if it wasn't for this thing I asked.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

No not really, because it still left me with the biggest question I had from the beginning.

Is Hamas using hospital, un refuge and school to fire rockets from?

Tell me, have in the past terrorist organization used any means necessary to get what they wanted?

The biggest mistake I think is the world thinks that any peace can come when dealing with Palestinian nation.

Because Hamas is a terrorist organization and one thing we know is that we don't negotiate with terrorist.

Per usa yes we all know that Iraq was all a hoax and fabricated.

But was using it as an example being the last big war from an advanced country in which casualties happen.

That being said I still find it hard that Israel would target such building if it wasn't for this thing I asked.

Is Hamas using schools of hospitals? I already answered that there is no evidence for that. Only claims and accusations. Even "IF", that according to the international community is unjustifiable. There are solid proofs however, that non hostile civilian areas have been targeted.

Their is a CLEAR distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. As I told you, such actions from Israel have been take PRIOR TO HAMAS. Therefore the problem of peace is not with hamas it is with the Israel.

You didn't think Israel is targeting on purpose civilian targets? Well that is your point of view. Evidence says otherwise. Gold Stone ( UN investigation) report for 2008 war has condemned Israel for war crimes. Currently, the UN says that their might be a war crime.

End result of this assault, will be more civilians dead, more humanitarian crisis and guess what, Hamas will still exist and only get stronger. Similar results that you can clearly see from the history of this conflict.

The authority in Palestine is not Hamas btw. So again, the excuse that peace cannot be achieved because of Hamas is nothing but an excuse to continuously carry out attacks against the Palestinians and hopefully achieve what the settlers have against the native Americans and later on attempted to the African Americans.

That should be a recent reference.

http://www.btselem.org/download/20090909_cast_lead_fatalities_eng.pdf

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

Edited July 27, 2014 by Mohammed Seif

[Fernando 6,585]

Is Hamas using schools of hospitals? I already answered that there is no evidence for that. Only claims and accusations. Even "IF", that according to the international community is unjustifiable. There are solid proofs however, that non hostile civilian areas have been targeted.

Their is a CLEAR distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. As I told you, such actions from Israel have been take PRIOR TO HAMAS. Therefore the problem of peace is not with hamas it is with the Israel.

You didn't think Israel is targeting on purpose civilian targets? Well that is your point of view. Evidence says otherwise. Gold Stone ( UN investigation) report for 2008 war has condemned Israel for war crimes. Currently, the UN says that their might be a war crime.

End result of this assault, will be more civilians dead, more humanitarian crisis and guess what, Hamas will still exist and only get stronger. Similar results that you can clearly see from the history of this conflict.

The authority in Palestine is not Hamas btw. So again, the excuse that peace cannot be achieved because of Hamas is nothing but an excuse to continuously carry out attacks against the Palestinians and hopefully achieve what the settlers have against the native Americans and later on attempted to the African Americans.

So no evidence against it or for it.

Then that doesn't solve our issues.

Now here see this, the problem I have here is that you think Israel is enjoying this.

Israel for a long time tried to negotiate with a state that is being backed by a terrorist organization.

That was and always will be a lost cause.

I don't think nobody wants to deal with Palestinian nation either.

I mean if the world cared they would have sent the military to get rid of Hamas.

Instead they let it continue there and keep attacking Israel.

So if the Palestinian nation does not take action against Hamas then who will?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

So no evidence against it or for it.

Then that doesn't solve our issues.

Now here see the problem I have here is that you think Israel is enjoying this.

Israel for a long time tried to negotiate with a state that is being backed by a terrorist organization.

That was and always will be a lost cause.

I don't think nobody wants to deal with Palestinian nation either.

I mean if the world cared they would have sent the military to get rid of Hamas.

Instead they let continue there and keep attacking Israel.

So if the Palestinian nation does not take action against Hamas then who will?

Fernando buddy , you have ignored what I said. I said there are no proofs for Israel's claims and there are proofs of the war crimes . That was in the first couple of lines.

I also said that this has been going on PRIOR TO THE EXISTENCE OF HAMAS. You ignored that too.

About "if the world cared" statement, check the vitos by the U.S.

You put your argument on what you think. I respect what you think. But what you, I and anyone as individuals thinks has no relevance really. You have to provide facts. And the experts on this matter have found Ariel Sharon a war criminal. Have found the 2008 war against Gaza a war crime. Have found what happened in Lebanon a war crime. And the justifications of Israel's disproportionate attacks has been condemned by the international community. I don't know what more solid ground you need. But if you do have anything that is not subjective or based on a gut feeling, please feel free to share it.

[Fernando 6,585]

Fernando buddy , you have ignored what I said. I said there are no proofs for Israel's claims and there are proofs of the war crimes . That was in the first couple of lines.

I also said that this has been going on PRIOR TO THE EXISTENCE OF HAMAS. You ignored that too.

About "if the world cared" statement, check the vitos by the U.S.

You put your argument on what you think. I respect what you think. But what you, I and anyone as individuals thinks has no relevance really. You have to provide facts. And the experts on this matter have found Ariel Sharon a war criminal. Have found the 2008 war against Gaza a war crime. Have found what happened in Lebanon a war crime. And the justifications of Israel's disproportionate attacks has been condemned by the international community. I don't know what more solid ground you need. But if you do have anything that is not subjective or based on a gut feeling, please feel free to share it.

So here's the thing, Israel gets hit with war crimes just like usa.

It's find and dandy and some people will pay for that, like soldiers and what not.

But a nation that has no control of themselves like Palestinian nation that is run by a terrorist organization they will never fall under that.

Because a terrorist organization does not fall under any jurisdiction.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

So here's the thing, Israel gets hit with war crimes just like usa.

It's find and dandy and some people will pay for that, like soldiers and what not.

But a nation that has no control of themselves like Palestinian nation that is run by a terrorist organization they will never fall under that.

Because a terrorist organization does not fall under any jurisdiction.

Palestinian authority is not Hamas .

Hamas is condemned and referred to as a terrorist group.

Palestinians are not Hamas.

[Fernando 6,585]

Palestinian authority is not Hamas .

Hamas is condemned and referred to as a terrorist group.

Palestinians are not Hamas.

Yes but Palestinian nation have no control over them.

Hamas attack Israel.

See it would be different is Israel attack say Belgium.

A country with no terrorist affiliation or that has harm them.

Here Hamas attack but does Palestinian nation do anything about it?

So logic course is to go to war against terrorism.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Yes but Palestinian nation have no control over them.

Hamas attack Israel.

See it would be different is Israel attack say Belgium.

A country with no terrorist affiliation or that has harm them.

Here Hamas attack but does Palestinian nation do anything about it?

So logic course is to go to war against terrorism.

You have to give them a country then ask them to control their nation. When you give them no country but a large prison cell, then there are no basis for that argument.

When you give them their state according to the 1967 borders agreement, I might be able to see an argument being made. But there is no excuse for killing civilians. That is called ethnic cleansing. There is also a difference between having collatoral damage in civilain lives and killing 70%-80% civilian. That is just dehumanizing Fernando.

[Fernando 6,585]

You have to give them a country then ask them to control their nation. When you give them no country but a large prison cell, then there are no basis for that argument.

When you give them their state according to the 1967 borders agreement, I might be able to see an argument being made. But there is no excuse for killing civilians. That is called ethnic cleansing. There is also a difference between having collatoral damage in civilain lives and killing 70%-80% civilian. That is just dehumanizing Fernando.

So they are no country but a terrorist organization affiliate as I said.

And because of that there will never be peace till the terrorists threat is eliminated.

[EBH 283]

Terrorists they may be, but they're firing popguns to the Israeli assault rifle. They aren't enough of a threat to have to go all out like this. This is worse than what the Sri Lankan government did to Tamils during the Civil War - and they were up against the LTTE too, who were so fierce a terrorist organisation (they had the wherewithal to assassinate both Presidents of India and Sri Lanka, these guys are serious) as to make even al-Qaeda irrelevant.

[EBH 283]

Just think about that. They assassinated the leader of a nation of one billion. A nation that has dozens of nuclear warheads. They make any Arab/Israeli terrorist crew look like John Citizens. And neither they nor the ethnic group they came from faced a smackdown anywhere near as to what's happening in Palestine today. I don't want to hear some whiny 'oh they're attacking us!' shit. Hamas' "attacks" are like a mosquito bite to a war elephant. Come back on them when they actually do something significant.

[EBH 283]

Imagine the wanted level you'd get on GTA if you killed the president

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Terrorists they may be, but they're firing popguns to the Israeli assault rifle. They aren't enough of a threat to have to go all out like this. This is worse than what the Sri Lankan government did to Tamils during the Civil War - and they were up against the LTTE too, who were so fierce a terrorist organisation (they had the wherewithal to assassinate both Presidents of India and Sri Lanka, these guys are serious) as to make even al-Qaeda irrelevant.

Yes the pop gun analogy is good. 2 israelis killed by the largely ineffective home made palestinian rockets, -thats 8 less that were killed by US rocket fireworks celebrating July 4th Independence day.

[Stingray 9,441]

Yes but Palestinian nation have no control over them.

Hamas attack Israel.

See it would be different is Israel attack say Belgium.

A country with no terrorist affiliation or that has harm them.

Here Hamas attack but does Palestinian nation do anything about it?

So logic course is to go to war against terrorism.

If it would be Belgium, the palestinians who lived in Belgium originally and before the dictate of 1948 would be cramped up on a space the size of almost Ghent and Antwerp after decades of war where we claimed all of the land despite International regulations.

We would trap them near the sea, and cut them off of the rest of the world by barb wire, fences, control posts and many more. Then we would bomb the shit out of that very limited space, destroying entire blocks with our very precies 1 ton killer bombs we got through financial support of our bidders, the USA, land of hope and glory.

We would be very surprised when those pesky Palestinians dared to shoot rockets back and pursue some kind of guerilla war fare. Even be so desperate to have those idiotic suïcide bombers. How dare they! Do they think they are japanese Kamikazes or what? The terrorist assholes!

The only option we would have left when dealing with such war crimes, is not only take out Hamas (which incidentally we helpen create to counter PLO and Arafat who was too powerful at the time) but kill everyone inside that territory.

To the media we will keep reporting all those horrible warcrimes committee by Hamas. If we repeat it often enough, they will eventually believe it and we can go back and visit our beautiful belgian coast.

Yeaaaah!

Ps: my buddy is currently an officer in the UN anti mining unit in Lebanon, he told me the IDF likes to put mines there with all those beautiful colours kids find attractive. You see how friendly they are, they even cater for kids.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

So they are no country but a terrorist organization affiliate as I said.

And because of that there will never be peace till the terrorists threat is eliminated.

No Fernando, they are not a terrorist affiliation. If you can't make a distinction between an armed group and a civilian population, then you have a major problem buddy.