Politics & Stuff

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

Ok this is the part I don't understand Petr. Why negotiate with them and ignore the government of Abbas. Don't you think that if Israel gets into a serious realistic negotiations with Abbas you would have achieved some sort of solution? I am sure that if that was the case, Palestinians in Gaza would realize how much better it is for themselves. But the point is, Israel ignores Abbas and deals with Palestinians as if they are all Hamas. There is a clear distinction and mental approach between both.

It's not that clear... we are trying to negotiate... doesn't work so far...

Disgusting shit from the Israeli gov.

That's all I'm gonna say.

yeah, very easy to say that from the far USA.....

Try to come and live in Sderot or any other south city...

[yuvala 2,167]

How stupid do you think people are to let Hamas hide rockets in their houses. Seriously, think about it for a second. And don't you think Hamas has better places to hide their rockets like under ground tunnels and storages? Why would they put their precious rockets in such vulnerable places?

And yes, it does seem that you just enjoy killing people. I refer you back to the couches and popcorn in Sderot...

It's all over the news, I just chose two random articles. More sources:

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/07/18/israeli-ground-invasion-kills-28-more-palestinians-forces-fire-unknown-white-poisonous-gas/

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-approves-ground-offensive-gaza-1556492146

Just Google it yourself.

Of course they have a choice! You think Hamas would have any fighters with them if they forced people to keep rockets in their houses? I can get keeping the rockets in schools and mosques because they are public places and Hamas may have power over them, but in private civilians houses? It makes absolutely no sense. Again why would Hamas leave their rockets so exposed when they can hide them in underground tunnels and storages?

I'm not justifying it, it's terrible to 'cheer' for death, but the rockets are falling are meant for psychological damage, and you know it. And you can't really mourn the death of an enemy soldier. For the Arabs, they are cheering for the resistance against the occupier of their country. What are the Israeli cheering for in the death of civilians? And let's be realistic, there is a difference between cheering for news (not that it's okay) and eating popcorn while watching whole neighborhoods with people living in them being bombed to the ground by some of the most devastating weaponry in the world. That's just inhuman.

This is EXACTLY why they're hiding rockets in places such as civillian houses or hospitals.. this alone proves (for me atleast) that we're not targeting random killing of civillians (and you saying that is just bias, sorry to say).

They're hiding the rockets there because they know that we try to stay away from killing innocent people and they also know that if we will bomb that storage it will make it look like we're killing for fun (by the way you talk, it works).

Also, you really over exxagerate Israelis being 'happy' whenever someone in Gaza dies. Yes, there are many ignorant people who just say "kill all the arabs", they are racist, stupid poor people. But most people I know are only 'happy' when we kill Hamas fighters and not civillians.

No Palestinian rockets have killed any Israelis thanks to the iron dome paid for by US tax payers, but lets ignore that for a moment.

Palestinians like Israelis are composed of Christians, Muslims, atheists agnostics, socialists, nationalists, anarchists, etc ..and some Palestinians endorse and some despise Hamas

Israelis are a mixed bunch as well ranging from feminists, price tag settlers, right wing, left wing and groups like these ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchists_Against_the_Wall and some agree with the govt and some not.

The reality is like in most of these conflicts, the average Palestinian has more in common with the average Israeli than they do with Hamas if they bothered to talk to each other, and if the wall was torn down. And the average Israeli has more in common with the average Palestinian than they do with their murderous leadership.

Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

The israeli colonial powers do not want to stop the rockets, they want the last bit of land for their rich friends, and will not rest , as one Isreali put it, ''until every Palestinian is washed out to sea.''

I wouldn't really say that, we wouldn't invade Gaza if there wasn't terrorism there. BUT, I will not deny that some people (and the government) do not really seek peace and that is part of the reason for why there's not really much going on regarding peace.

* btw, it's important for me to say that I'm really trying to be objective and I dont share the same political views as 'XpetrCechx' and 'CFC4EVER'.

What I think the ideal solution should be is Israel together with the UN and other countries should help grow Gaza's economy and make the life of the Palestinians better which will IMO drop the amout of extremists and that would help Israel aswell as the Palestinians.

I dont really have a solution for the current situation though, its really too complicated.

[yuvala 2,167]

Ok this is the part I don't understand Petr. Why negotiate with them and ignore the government of Abbas. Don't you think that if Israel gets into a serious realistic negotiations with Abbas you would have achieved some sort of solution? I am sure that if that was the case, Palestinians in Gaza would realize how much better it is for themselves. But the point is, Israel ignores Abbas and deals with Palestinians as if they are all Hamas. There is a clear distinction and mental approach between both.

Hi Mohammed, how's it going ?

Could you elaborate on who are Abbas ? I really dont know much about it.

[Stingray 9,441]

This person got suspended for her talk. Comon Israel. You are going the wrong way. The banality of evil!!

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

This person got suspended for her talk. Comon Israel. You are going the wrong way. The banality of evil!!

Very Stupid Thing To do.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

This is EXACTLY why they're hiding rockets in places such as civillian houses or hospitals.. this alone proves (for me atleast) that we're not targeting random killing of civillians (and you saying that is just bias, sorry to say).

They're hiding the rockets there because they know that we try to stay away from killing innocent people and they also know that if we will bomb that storage it will make it look like we're killing for fun (by the way you talk, it works).

Also, you really over exxagerate Israelis being 'happy' whenever someone in Gaza dies. Yes, there are many ignorant people who just say "kill all the arabs", they are racist, stupid poor people. But most people I know are only 'happy' when we kill Hamas fighters and not civillians.

I wouldn't really say that, we wouldn't invade Gaza if there wasn't terrorism there. BUT, I will not deny that some people (and the government) do not really seek peace and that is part of the reason for why there's not really much going on regarding peace.

* btw, it's important for me to say that I'm really trying to be objective and I dont share the same political views as 'XpetrCechx' and 'CFC4EVER'.

What I think the ideal solution should be is Israel together with the UN and other countries should help grow Gaza's economy and make the life of the Palestinians better which will IMO drop the amout of extremists and that would help Israel aswell as the Palestinians.

I dont really have a solution for the current situation though, its really too complicated.

Full respect buddy.

Hi Mohammed, how's it going ?

Could you elaborate on who are Abbas ? I really dont know much about it.

It is all going fine.

Mamoud Abbas, AKA Abu Mazen. He is considered to be the legitimate leader for the Palestinians and is in the West Bank. He is also the leader of Fateh. He was viewed by Hamas as some sort of traitor because he refuses to solve the problems through violence and would rather seek a diplomatic solution. They even massacred people who followed Abbas in Gaza hence the division between the Palestinians. The guy is all for peace and Palestinians rights. Of course not everything he says and wants is accepted by the Israeli government, but he does not resort to violence or encourage it. If true real progress is made with Abbas, Hamas would be viewed as blood sucking militants IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS. That will be a huge step to dissolve Hamas, improve the life of people in Gaza and the West Bank, and will force Arab leaders in a corner where they would have to help out to make such steps work. Israel will not have to face Hamas on its own. Egypt will get involved, Jordan will get involved, and other countries will provide some sort of aid. It is a win win situation. The main reasons that caused those diplomatic approaches to fail over the past two decades was the settlements.

By the way check out this guy Shlomo bin Ami. He seems to understand more. And though yes there are points where there might be disagreements, but atleast the guy sees that there must be a proper way out. His approach is more diplomatic that a lot of the Israeli politicians

Edited July 18, 2014 by Mohammed Seif

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

Hi Mohammed, how's it going ?

Could you elaborate on who are Abbas ? I really dont know much about it.

אבו מאזן.

[Stingray 9,441]

אבו מאזן.

Say what?

I hate that tbh. I dont speak dutch with skipper to other flemish guys. Its sum kotzen.

[yuvala 2,167]

Full respect buddy.

It is all going fine.

Mamoud Abbas, AKA Abu Mazen. He is considered to be the legitimate leader for the Palestinians and is in the West Bank. He is also the leader of Fateh. He was viewed by Hamas as some sort of traitor because he refuses to solve the problems through violence and would rather seek a diplomatic solution. They even massacred people who followed Abbas in Gaza hence the division between the Palestinians. The guy is all for peace and Palestinians rights. Of course not everything he says and wants is accepted by the Israeli government, but he does not resort to violence or encourage it. If true real progress is made with Abbas, Hamas would be viewed as blood sucking militants IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS. That will be a huge step to dissolve Hamas, improve the life of people in Gaza and the West Bank, and will force Arab leaders in a corner where they would have to help out to make such steps work. Israel will not have to face Hamas on its own. Egypt will get involved, Jordan will get involved, and other countries will provide some sort of aid. It is a win win situation. The main reasons that caused those diplomatic approaches to fail over the past two decades was the settlements.

Ohh Abu Mazen.. didn't know it wasn't his actual name.

I'm all for peace talks with the Palestinian government (just not Hamas), it should start with the West Bank because Gaza is really problematic now with Hamas.

Maybe if the life of the palestinians in the WB get better, people in Gaza will stop supporting Hamas.

Meanwhile, our government just keeps on letting the settlements expand and they're not really interested in talking.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Ohh Abu Mazen.. didn't know it wasn't his actual name.

I'm all for peace talks with the Palestinian government (just not Hamas), it should start with the West Bank because Gaza is really problematic now with Hamas.

Maybe if the life of the palestinians in the WB get better, people in Gaza will stop supporting Hamas.

Meanwhile, our government just keeps on letting the settlements expand and they're not really interested in talking.

Exactly my point. Well put.

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

Say what?

I hate that tbh. I dont speak dutch with skipper to other flemish guys. Its sum kotzen.

Abu Mazen

[Stingray 9,441]

Abu Mazen

ow

[CHOULO19 24,332]

This is EXACTLY why they're hiding rockets in places such as civillian houses or hospitals.. this alone proves (for me atleast) that we're not targeting random killing of civillians (and you saying that is just bias, sorry to say).

They're hiding the rockets there because they know that we try to stay away from killing innocent people and they also know that if we will bomb that storage it will make it look like we're killing for fun (by the way you talk, it works).

Also, you really over exxagerate Israelis being 'happy' whenever someone in Gaza dies. Yes, there are many ignorant people who just say "kill all the arabs", they are racist, stupid poor people. But most people I know are only 'happy' when we kill Hamas fighters and not civillians.

You did not answer my question: Why would those civilians agree to having rockets in their houses? Do you think they really want their houses destroyed and children killed? Seriously, just stop and think about it for a second, it makes less than zero sense. How can you be so sure that there are rockets in civilian houses? Post a proof that there are rockets in civilian houses (not Hamas fighters or leaders). That is from the civilian perspective. From the Hamas perspective, why would they leave their rockets in houses? Over 700 houses have been targeted since the start of this battle alone. If there are 3 rockets on average in each house, then Hamas have lost 2100 rockets. That's more than they have fired! They can't afford to lose that amount rockets just to 'trick' Israel to kill civilians. It makes no sense. Just because you have told something over and over again it doesn't mean it's right!

And for goodness sake, Israel NEVER avoids to kill civilians. You can maybe get away with saying you are not targeting civilians, but 'avoiding killing civilians' is really just laughable when you look at the numbers, not just this battle but throughout history. What about the 1100 civilians in the 2006 war on Lebanon? Hezboullah only fires rockets from vast fields in the South. Why were thousands of civilian houses targeted and why was half of the southern suburb of Beirut leveled to the ground when no rockets were ever fired from the area? You just CANNOT say you are avoiding civilians when the civilian death toll is always 10 times that of the armed militias. There can be no excuses. In 2007, the Lebanese Army fought a war in a refugee camp against a branch of Al Qaeda. All the circumstances are very similar to Gaza, except that the Lebanese army has WW2 weaponry. Their most precision weapon was throwing bombs from a transport helicopter! hundreds of terrorists hid inside civilian houses. The Lebanese army won and forced them out with almost no civilian losses.

And I'm not exaggerating about the cheering for civilian killings. You have people getting couches and popcorn on a hillside to watch the killings like some sort of sick cinema and you an Israeli MP saying that you "need to kill Palestinian mothers so they can't give birth to more snakes". Again, you want to get rid of extremism, why not start with that on your side? Get rid of those people and it would be much easier to get rid of Hamas and the Muslim extremists and the Palestinians and Arabs would even help you to do so.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I wouldn't really say that, we wouldn't invade Gaza if there wasn't terrorism there. BUT, I will not deny that some people (and the government) do not really seek peace and that is part of the reason for why there's not really much going on regarding peace.

* btw, it's important for me to say that I'm really trying to be objective and I dont share the same political views as 'XpetrCechx' and 'CFC4EVER'.

What I think the ideal solution should be is Israel together with the UN and other countries should help grow Gaza's economy and make the life of the Palestinians better which will IMO drop the amount of extremists and that would help Israel as well as the Palestinians.

I dont really have a solution for the current situation though, its really too complicated.

If there were more people with this objectiveness and levelheadedness in the Knesset, peace would actually be a realistic dream.

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

This is EXACTLY why they're hiding rockets in places such as civillian houses or hospitals.. this alone proves (for me atleast) that we're not targeting random killing of civillians (and you saying that is just bias, sorry to say).

They're hiding the rockets there because they know that we try to stay away from killing innocent people and they also know that if we will bomb that storage it will make it look like we're killing for fun (by the way you talk, it works).

Also, you really over exxagerate Israelis being 'happy' whenever someone in Gaza dies. Yes, there are many ignorant people who just say "kill all the arabs", they are racist, stupid poor people. But most people I know are only 'happy' when we kill Hamas fighters and not civillians.

I wouldn't really say that, we wouldn't invade Gaza if there wasn't terrorism there. BUT, I will not deny that some people (and the government) do not really seek peace and that is part of the reason for why there's not really much going on regarding peace.

* btw, it's important for me to say that I'm really trying to be objective and I dont share the same political views as 'XpetrCechx' and 'CFC4EVER'.

What I think the ideal solution should be is Israel together with the UN and other countries should help grow Gaza's economy and make the life of the Palestinians better which will IMO drop the amout of extremists and that would help Israel aswell as the Palestinians.

I dont really have a solution for the current situation though, its really too complicated.

Tell me the difference?

[yuvala 2,167]

You did not answer my question: Why would those civilians agree to having rockets in their houses? Do you think they really want their houses destroyed and children killed? Seriously, just stop and think about it for a second, it makes less than zero sense. How can you be so sure that there are rockets in civilian houses? Post a proof that there are rockets in civilian houses (not Hamas fighters or leaders). That is from the civilian perspective. From the Hamas perspective, why would they leave their rockets in houses? Over 700 houses have been targeted since the start of this battle alone. If there are 3 rockets on average in each house, then Hamas have lost 2100 rockets. That's more than they have fired! They can't afford to lose that amount rockets just to 'trick' Israel to kill civilians. It makes no sense. Just because you have told something over and over again it doesn't mean it's right!

And for goodness sake, Israel NEVER avoids to kill civilians. You can maybe get away with saying you are not targeting civilians, but 'avoiding killing civilians' is really just laughable when you look at the numbers, not just this battle but throughout history. What about the 1100 civilians in the 2006 war on Lebanon? Hezboullah only fires rockets from vast fields in the South. Why were thousands of civilian houses targeted and why was half of the southern suburb of Beirut leveled to the ground when no rockets were ever fired from the area? You just CANNOT say you are avoiding civilians when the civilian death toll is always 10 times that of the armed militias. There can be no excuses. In 2007, the Lebanese Army fought a war in a refugee camp against a branch of Al Qaeda. All the circumstances are very similar to Gaza, except that the Lebanese army has WW2 weaponry. Their most precision weapon was throwing bombs from a transport helicopter! hundreds of terrorists hid inside civilian houses. The Lebanese army won and forced them out with almost no civilian losses.

And I'm not exaggerating about the cheering for civilian killings. You have people getting couches and popcorn on a hillside to watch the killings like some sort of sick cinema and you an Israeli MP saying that you "need to kill Palestinian mothers so they can't give birth to more snakes". Again, you want to get rid of extremism, why not start with that on your side? Get rid of those people and it would be much easier to get rid of Hamas and the Muslim extremists and the Palestinians and Arabs would even help you to do so.

I dont really want to say anything about the war in Lebanon because I really dont know too much about it, but I'll take your word for it (about the civillian houses being fired on for no reason).

Regarding Gaza, my post was maybe over-protecting because your post was too offensive. I really don't know for 100% but I do believe that you are partially right, maybe our government isn't doing EVERYTHING in its power. But I'll still say that we're not TARGETING civillians like Hamas does.

I found this:

"Only the people responsible can know for sure why Palestinian militants would use civilian buildings, but any real possibility is bad. Maybe militant groups use civilian buildings like this UN school simply because they don't mind the danger this creates for the Palestinians they claim to protect. Maybe it's because they are hoping that the rockets will be safer in a UN school because Israel won't want to bomb it, which means using Palestinians kids and teachers as human shields. An argument you hear from Hamas's harshest critics is that they are hoping Israel will target the schools, thus rallying people to their side.

None of these speaks well of militant groups or the effects of their rocket campaigns on Palestinian civilians. It is not a great secret that "resistance" campaigns by groups like Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad bring far greater harm to Palestinian civilians than they do anything resembling liberation, but this incident is a small glimpse of how, and of the effects of militant groups firing hundreds of rockets into Israel from densely populated neighborhoods in Gaza.

Here's the thing, though: while incidents like this force Israel to decide between bombing civilian structures or allowing Hamas to use those structures as rocket storage depots, it does not actually force Israel to choose to bomb civilian buildings. It is entirely within Israel's power to not bomb civilian buildings.

Israel has overwhelming military superiority in the conflict, and while that does not make Hamas rockets disappear or obviate their very real effects on Israeli civilians, Israel is strong enough to choose not to bomb a mosque and a center for the disabled in Gaza, as it did on July 12. It can choose not to bomb Gaza beaches frequented by civilians, as it did on Wednesday, killing four boys between the ages of 9 and 11.

There is no indication that Israel deliberately targets civilians, as Hamas does. But Israeli air strikes in Gaza, targeting Hamas and other militant groups that choose to embed themselves among civilians, kill an overwhelming number of Palestinian civilians. Last week, two UN agencies separately estimated that 70 to 77 percent of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians. Human Rights Watch on Wednesday accused Israel of "targeting apparent civilian structures and killing civilians in violation of the laws of war."

This is the one thing that both Hamas and Israel seem to share: a willingness to adopt military tactics that will put Palestinian civilians at direct risk and that contribute, however unintentionally, to the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Partisans in the Israel-Palestine conflict want to make that an argument over which "side" has greater moral culpability in the continued killings of Palestinian civilians. And there is validity to asking whether Hamas should so ensconce itself among civilians in a way that will invite attacks, just as there is validity to asking why Israel seems to show so little restraint in dropping bombs over Gaza neighborhoods. But even that argument over moral superiority ultimately treats those dying Palestinian families as pawns in the conflict, tokens to be counted for or against, their humanity and suffering so easily disregarded"

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hide-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

I dont really want to say anything about the war in Lebanon because I really dont know too much about it, but I'll take your word for it (about the civillian houses being fired on for no reason).

Regarding Gaza, my post was maybe over-protecting because your post was too offensive. I really don't know for 100% but I do believe that you are partially right, maybe our government isn't doing EVERYTHING in its power. But I'll still say that we're not TARGETING civillians like Hamas does.

I found this:

"Only the people responsible can know for sure why Palestinian militants would use civilian buildings, but any real possibility is bad. Maybe militant groups use civilian buildings like this UN school simply because they don't mind the danger this creates for the Palestinians they claim to protect. Maybe it's because they are hoping that the rockets will be safer in a UN school because Israel won't want to bomb it, which means using Palestinians kids and teachers as human shields. An argument you hear from Hamas's harshest critics is that they are hoping Israel will target the schools, thus rallying people to their side.

None of these speaks well of militant groups or the effects of their rocket campaigns on Palestinian civilians. It is not a great secret that "resistance" campaigns by groups like Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad bring far greater harm to Palestinian civilians than they do anything resembling liberation, but this incident is a small glimpse of how, and of the effects of militant groups firing hundreds of rockets into Israel from densely populated neighborhoods in Gaza.

Here's the thing, though: while incidents like this force Israel to decide between bombing civilian structures or allowing Hamas to use those structures as rocket storage depots, it does not actually force Israel to choose to bomb civilian buildings. It is entirely within Israel's power to not bomb civilian buildings.

Israel has overwhelming military superiority in the conflict, and while that does not make Hamas rockets disappear or obviate their very real effects on Israeli civilians, Israel is strong enough to choose not to bomb a mosque and a center for the disabled in Gaza, as it did on July 12. It can choose not to bomb Gaza beaches frequented by civilians, as it did on Wednesday, killing four boys between the ages of 9 and 11.

There is no indication that Israel deliberately targets civilians, as Hamas does. But Israeli air strikes in Gaza, targeting Hamas and other militant groups that choose to embed themselves among civilians, kill an overwhelming number of Palestinian civilians. Last week, two UN agencies separately estimated that 70 to 77 percent of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians. Human Rights Watch on Wednesday accused Israel of "targeting apparent civilian structures and killing civilians in violation of the laws of war."

This is the one thing that both Hamas and Israel seem to share: a willingness to adopt military tactics that will put Palestinian civilians at direct risk and that contribute, however unintentionally, to the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Partisans in the Israel-Palestine conflict want to make that an argument over which "side" has greater moral culpability in the continued killings of Palestinian civilians. And there is validity to asking whether Hamas should so ensconce itself among civilians in a way that will invite attacks, just as there is validity to asking why Israel seems to show so little restraint in dropping bombs over Gaza neighborhoods. But even that argument over moral superiority ultimately treats those dying Palestinian families as pawns in the conflict, tokens to be counted for or against, their humanity and suffering so easily disregarded"

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5912189/yes-gaza-militants-hide-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to

Tell me the difference?

SO?

[yuvala 2,167]

SO?

From what I've seen (previous posts) you seem to be more on the Right side while I'm leaning more towards the left.

[xPetrCechx 13,582]

From what I've seen (previous posts) you seem to be more on the Right side while I'm leaning more towards the left.

I'm On the middle IMO.

[Stingray 9,441]

From what im thinking left is not taboo, but a democratic option.