Politics & Stuff

[CHOULO19 24,332]

2 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Yes but in other countries like Iran it's totally worse. 

There's no freedom over there especially freedom of religion. You have to be Muslim and that's that. Christian get persecuted. 

As to per the disjointed standards between people I wonder if that is because of tensions? 

It's like for example in the temple mount at jew is not able to go to pray. Otherwise some riot will brake out.... 

That's actually just wrong about Iran. They don't have a real democracy, true, but they do have a sort of quasi-democracy. Iranians do vote and have fair elections and their votes make a genuine difference, but the system is a way such that some of the major decisions are still taken by the Ayatollah without any accountability to the people.

That's not to defend of course the Iranian 'democracy', but saying that they don't have a democracy at all is just factually wrong. Their human rights record is one of the worst on the planet as well, but again, saying that there is no freedom there is just inaccurate. 

The part about religious freedom in particular is just baseless. While the vast majority of the citizens are Shia muslims, Iran does have scores of other religious minorities living there including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians....etc. and to my knowledge they all have full rights and representation. 

Of course the situation might not be ideal, as is the case for minorities almost anywhere, but certainly minorities such as Jews in Iran have A LOT more freedom and rights in Iran than most Palestinians have in Israel, be it Muslims or Christian. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

3 minutes ago, Fernando said:

I think problem with Israel is that they are too nice. 

When they won the six day war they had total control of Jerusalem but they trying to be nice to the Muslim gave the temple mount to Muslim control.....

I'm like hello you won the war your land now.

That's has always been the rules of war as far as I can remember. You wind land by being the winner in the war.

Then Israel wants to be even more nice in giving land away. Like giving the west bank.

So this has been the major problem for me with Israel. They try to be too nice and in the process screw everything up.

And of course USA does this same thing.  Goes to war with a country and tries to establish a democracy which creates more problems and hate..... 

Yeah, that's the problem! Got absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, occupation  and massacres against the natives for political and economic gains... 

[Fernando 6,586]

18 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

Yeah, that's the problem! Got absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, occupation  and massacres against the natives for political and economic gains... 

Well your a student of history I presume. 

How did Mohammed took power? By his words or sword? How did the Ottoman took power? By their words or sword? 

And how did they lost power? 

By their words or the sword? 

So as you can see that has been the way all these empire took and lost control of land. 

USA and Israel on the other hand they are too nice and instead of completely owning everything as Ottoman Empire did they try to give back to the local in order to apiece. And that as you see with Iraq creates more problems. 

Now if it was say China that came to war with say Iran they would be merciless. Totally annihilate and declare that it's China territory. 

[Fernando 6,586]

16 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

That's actually just wrong about Iran. They don't have a real democracy, true, but they do have a sort of quasi-democracy. Iranians do vote and have fair elections and their votes make a genuine difference, but the system is a way such that some of the major decisions are still taken by the Ayatollah without any accountability to the people.

That's not to defend of course the Iranian 'democracy', but saying that they don't have a democracy at all is just factually wrong. Their human rights record is one of the worst on the planet as well, but again, saying that there is no freedom there is just inaccurate. 

The part about religious freedom in particular is just baseless. While the vast majority of the citizens are Shia muslims, Iran does have scores of other religious minorities living there including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians....etc. and to my knowledge they all have full rights and representation. 

Of course the situation might not be ideal, as is the case for minorities almost anywhere, but certainly minorities such as Jews in Iran have A LOT more freedom and rights in Iran than most Palestinians have in Israel, be it Muslims or Christian. 

Your knowledge should do some checking. Cause as far as I know a Christian can live better in Israel then Iran. 

In Iran they have to be underground. And if a Muslim converts to Christianity it's a major problem. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

7 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Well your a student of history I presume. 

How did Mohammed took power? By his words or sword? How did the Ottoman took power? By their words or sword? 

And how did they lost power? 

By their words or the sword? 

So as you can see that has been the way all these empire took and lost control of land. 

USA and Israel on the other hand they are too nice and instead of completely owning everything as Ottoman Empire did they try to give back to the local in order to apiece. And that as you see with Iraq creates more problems. 

Now if it was say China that came to war with say Iran they would be merciless. Totally annihilate and declare that it's China territory. 

Putting aside the 'questionable' moral values in that as well as the very obvious problems in the analogies such as assuming that what Mohammed or the Ottomans or Romans or whatever did was acceptable and moral, there is a main and pretty obvious issue with that which cannot be overlooked: This isn't the year 600! The ages of colonialism and imperialism is, or at least should be, over. It is no longer acceptable to conquer lands and kill people for imperialist and economic gains. There are international laws against that.

 

14 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Your knowledge should do some checking. Cause as far as I know a Christian can live better in Israel then Iran. 

In Iran they have to be underground. And if a Muslim converts to Christianity it's a major problem. 

Well then let's present some proof. I'll start: In Iran, Christianity is recognized as one of the official religions in the state along with Judaism, Zoroastrianism and obviously Islam. iirc, Christian have 3 seats in the Iranian parliament. On the other hand, Christians in Gaza are bombed indiscriminately by Israel just like Muslims, and Palestinian Christians in the West Bank are subjugated segregation, apartheid and systemic racism. 60 minutes did a report on it a couple of years back: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5p8mZ-HN-0 

[Fernando 6,586]

39 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

Putting aside the 'questionable' moral values in that as well as the very obvious problems in the analogies such as assuming that what Mohammed or the Ottomans or Romans or whatever did was acceptable and moral, there is a main and pretty obvious issue with that which cannot be overlooked: This isn't the year 600! The ages of colonialism and imperialism is, or at least should be, over. It is no longer acceptable to conquer lands and kill people for imperialist and economic gains. There are international laws against that.

 

Well then let's present some proof. I'll start: In Iran, Christianity is recognized as one of the official religions in the state along with Judaism, Zoroastrianism and obviously Islam. iirc, Christian have 3 seats in the Iranian parliament. On the other hand, Christians in Gaza are bombed indiscriminately by Israel just like Muslims, and Palestinian Christians in the West Bank are subjugated segregation, apartheid and systemic racism. 60 minutes did a report on it a couple of years back: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5p8mZ-HN-0 

Moral values is not what I'm arguing. 

Of course its wrong. But I'm saying as an empire that goes to war and control land that has been a major problem these two countries have. 

As to per international law.... Let me ask you,  Who puts the international laws? And who enforce them? 

See law comes from someone that has power. If that power does not uphold the law then what kind of law is it? 

Who is the one that will uphold the international law? How well are they enforcing? 

And proof for Iran Christian well I'll also give you a YouTube video. 

 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

Quite interesting but it's hardly earth shattering news that Donald Trump is a man of few words.

https://youtu.be/_aFo_BV-UzI

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

1 hour ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Quite interesting but it's hardly earth shattering news that Donald Trump is a man of few words.

https://youtu.be/_aFo_BV-UzI

and apparently of few hair follicles as well

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

and apparently of few hair follicles as well

I might have posted this before it's brilliant. I'd love to know what that geezer at 2.55 says.

https://youtu.be/oBuW1n9vdFg

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

47 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

I might have posted this before it's brilliant. I'd love to know what that geezer at 2.55 says.

https://youtu.be/oBuW1n9vdFg

hahaha cant stop laughing at that

''a guinea pig looking through the port hole of a washing machine''.

bloke at 2 55 saying something like ''Trump is da champ''. Think he has 6 fingers and starred in Deliverance''

[CHOULO19 24,332]

3 hours ago, Fernando said:

And proof for Iran Christian well I'll also give you a YouTube video. 

 

We have a serious disagreement on what constitutes 'proof'. That doesn't actually site a single actual example except a guy who converted to Christianity and was disowned by his family. How is that state persecution?! 

As I've said initially, I imagine that the situation is not ideal for minorities in Iran such as Christians, there is bound to be social pressure in such a religious society, but they are not persecuted in the same sense that we are talking about.

This doesn't even begin to compare to Palestinians, including Christians, being tried by a separate military court andhaving segregated roads, schools, buses..etc.That's called apartheid. 

[Fernando 6,586]

4 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

We have a serious disagreement on what constitutes 'proof'. That doesn't actually site a single actual example except a guy who converted to Christianity and was disowned by his family. How is that state persecution?! 

As I've said initially, I imagine that the situation is not ideal for minorities in Iran such as Christians, there is bound to be social pressure in such a religious society, but they are not persecuted in the same sense that we are talking about.

This doesn't even begin to compare to Palestinians, including Christians, being tried by a separate military court andhaving segregated roads, schools, buses..etc.That's called apartheid. 

Okay what about these:

 

 

 

 

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

12 hours ago, Fernando said:

I think problem with Israel is that they are too nice. 

When they won the six day war they had total control of Jerusalem but they trying to be nice to the Muslim gave the temple mount to Muslim control.....

I'm like hello you won the war your land now.

That's has always been the rules of war as far as I can remember. You wind land by being the winner in the war.

Then Israel wants to be even more nice in giving land away. Like giving the west bank.

So this has been the major problem for me with Israel. They try to be too nice and in the process screw everything up.

And of course USA does this same thing.  Goes to war with a country and tries to establish a democracy which creates more problems and hate..... 

Israel is being practical, not nice. 

The two state ship has sailed and will never happen, and you can't force people to integrate into your society if they don't want to. Israel can realistically only hope a new type of Pan Arabism takes over and other arab nations absorb the people in the territories so they can try to make something of life. Any other result is pretty much the status quo being maintained, and it can't realistically last too much longer like this.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

8 hours ago, Fernando said:

Okay what about these:

 

 

 

 

No offense mate, but I don't have time to keep watching youtube videos you pitch to me. Give me specific examples, ideally with an article from a reputable source (guardian, Washington Post, New York Times, Telegraph...etc.)

Again, I'm not saying that NO Christian has ever been persecuted in Iran (particularly those who were 'born' Muslim and converge), but I'm saying that there is no systematic persecution of Christians in Iran in the sense that we are talking about; I mean like Kurds were in Syria and Iraq, like Palestinians are in Israel, like Shias are in Bahrain, like non-Muslims are in Saudi Arabia...etc. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

Personally I think every religion should be equality prosecuted in every country... equally. So, they would would just just vanish and leave us alone to think for ourselves.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

18 minutes ago, Robguima said:

Personally I think every religion should be equality prosecuted in every country... equally. So, they would would just just vanish and leave us alone to think for ourselves.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

 Word up

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

20 hours ago, Fernando said:

Your knowledge should do some checking. Cause as far as I know a Christian can live better in Israel then Iran. 

 

Unless youre called Jesus....

[lucio 5,418]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

Personally I think every religion should be equality prosecuted in every country... equally. So, they would would just just vanish and leave us alone to think for ourselves.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

hard to make them vanish , when they got the biggest and oldest buildings in each city

but christianity will decline by itself i reckon, its very casual, the average church goer is like 70, and younger people don;t care less

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

So we have a new Labour mayor. Sadiq Khan, brought up on a council estate, Pakistani muslim.

Has to be better than billionaire son Zac Goldsmith who tried to smear Khan as a terrorist sympathiser -and better than the last one Alexander de Pfeffeil Johnson (call me Boris)

[CHOULO19 24,332]

28 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

So we have a new Labour mayor. Sadiq Khan, brought up on a council estate, Pakistani muslim.

Has to be better than billionaire son Zac Goldsmith who tried to smear Khan as a terrorist sympathiser -and better than the last one Alexander de Pfeffeil Johnson (call me Boris)

Tbf, as long as it wasn't Galloway