Racism in Football

[osgoodisgod 150]

This is my first topic I've started and I realise it's potentially contentious but I wanted to air it and discuss it in a fair and adult way.

There was a touch on racism on other posts and I've always thought that football by its very nature is and really can't be anything else but racist, at least to some extent.

What I mean is even, and in some ways especially, very small local teams start the whole sport on a racist footing. Your pub team plays the next village area and you immediately make reference to the difference between the teams based on the differences between them due to the area the teams come from.

Almost every team is named after the area it comes from and therefore engenders a form of racism. This goes on to other bigger teams and ultimately national teams. Take Geordie, Scouse, Cockney, Northern, Jock, English etc etc. It doesn't have to be country based or skin tone based either - it's still racist.

Being honest, what is the first thing that comes into your head when we play Liverpool, Spuds etc etc. What when your national team plays another team - " right boys - lets get into these dirty (insert region/county/country/ethnicity) bastards". Does that make us 90 minute bigots and therefore bigots outright. Can you divorce what your football feelings are from how you would consider things in other aspects of your life and if you can does that make a difference and mitigate what you say,sing shout on a Saturday afternoon. Can you genuinely say that a racist thought does not enter your head when you think about fixtures etc.

Clearly, racism is wrong. What I wanted to hear was what you guys/girls though about how this imapcts on football now and what effect it will have on football in the future.

There is new legislation in Scotland outlawing certain behaviour. It's directed at Rangers and Celtic fans but it is impacting on every match because of the regional differences inherent in football and it's structure.

I honestly don't want to suggest AT ALL that racism is acceptable but I wondered what your thoughts were on how racism at different levels affects football.

I hope some of this makes sense and you can see what I'm driving at.

[zolayes 14,489]

I think the word you should use is "Tribalism" . In its more general form that means a small grouping.

In many countries Tribalism is a serious issue leading to civil war and genocide, It not be confused with Racism.

Tribalism can explain conflict between neighbours ,,,gang rivalry and killing .. yes it does filter down to Sport and especially football.

[BluesChick 1,260]

To add to what Ron said, I would say that in football when you are supporting your team or country many times that team has players from different races and backgrounds. So that would as Ron pointed out separate it from "racism".

I believe that there is a sense of being part of a "tribe" (to borrow Ron's idea) and that sometimes when we are in a crowd that we go with the crowd. One of my favorite quotes/sayings (I believe from a Terry Goodkind book) says basically this (It has been a long time since I read the book), People are stupid. An individual can be intelligent but when part of a group they tend to be stupid.

It goes a long with the theory of "mob mentality" in that we will do things as part of a group that we would never do or condone as an individual. I wonder sometimes if people understand the songs and chants they use at games and if they truly understand the meanings behind them. Sometimes we just join in because everyone else is chanting or singing.

[Fulham Broadway 16,862]

@45 seconds in these West Ham fans explain the rivalry and tribalism

[osgoodisgod 150]

I get the tribalism bit and I've always that was what it was about - human nature. I've seen at at football from the fan's side and the policing side and it was always accepted for pretty much that. What's brought it more in to my mind is the impact the new, ill thought out, legislation is having in Scotland. Now city rivalries and regional differences are being lablelled as offensive/racist/sectarian and now pretty much no-one is that sure what is acceptable or what you're likely to get locked up for.

There's no real recognition of what is said but more on the effect or possible effect of it so this gives the police and other authorities way too much discretion and very little is objective. If this happened in England then you could be locked up for singing In your Liverpool homes, I bought a flute for 50p and definitely any anti Spud/yid songs would end with you getting locked up, banned and the club sanctioned.

The only people who wanted this law was the Scottish Government and the police (any power is good power). All other political parties, the churches, fans groups and pretty much everyone else was against it but its here now.

This paranoia and over reaction is spreading - I had to take down a Union Flag I had on my desk in support of Help for Heroes. My argument that surely showing your national flag couldn't be considered racist but there you are - theres not another country in the World would do this.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

To OP, muchly respected first topic. You've opened this thread for a conversation of high maturity levels and invited a healthy discussion about the state of football & the offences we'll throw out of rivalry.

I completely agree how using regional examples to encite 'banter' is also racist. Zolayes & Blues Chick went very indepth when describing why this comes about, especially with this mild form of racism (I used mildly on purpose, I shall elaborate soon). We take part in these chants, we don't consider them offensive because everyone's doing it, surely eveyrone can't be wrong? But they can. This is a line where 'banter' does not equal 'bigotism'.

The reason (now this is my own opinion I must emphasise) why it's a bit more serious when it concerns the African-background that's subjected to a higher sensitivity is because of the historical context of the suffering of people of african-decent. For thousands and thousands of years, they've been subjected to prejudice & abuse. Linking back to even before the slave trade, that really intensified this. I said 'mild' racism when it comes to domestic racism, I don't dare suggest it's not as serious, I simply mean that it can be taken on the cheek.

The struggle for darker-skinned people has been tougher globally. A lot of progress has been made in the 21st century to correct this and it's been successful for the majority. But every time someone refers to someone of that decent as a 'nigger', 'negro' or even 'negrito', it's just another reminder of the terms that were used in the - not so distant - past to prejudice them. It's another reminder that their skin colour is a factor, it's a subject of hatred, and the struggle continues. Tom Adeyemi's tears examplified this today. His shock & reaction show this 'flashback' (per sé) of the struggle his anccestors fought against.

I would never dare suggest that calling someone a 'white cunt' isn't equally racist, but it's just about remembering the historical context. Of course it's just as bad, because you're doing the same thing by enticing hatred because of the trivial matter of skin colour.

I hope I've been understood properly.

[daBlackMamba7 174]

I will just comment on this one time and i am done...I have purposely distanced myself from every race related incident, even the John Terry racism thread i said nothing because this is something i am 100% sure a whole lot of you have no first hand experience of or live through it...

Zolayes is trying to make the argument that, it is more tribalism than racism, because we support teams with people from different races...We on this forum for example support "Chelsea Football Club" and to an extent the players that play there, but as soon as they have a bad game even respected members of this board have said put their color when cursing them out (Sh0n3x, you know yourself and even eldo (not sure though) or so on Yaya Toure ), but i havent seen them call put other players color's first when slagging them off..I have seen Stephen Hunt is a cunt not "white cunt"..

Then when i read some of your comments on the John Terry and all other race related thread, i just see it that alot of you dont even see it as something wrong...I have been in situations where i was racist to and trust me it is a terrible feeling, knowing that the only thing you have done wrong is having a different color from the other person.

Lastly, i think English people are really racist and it really doesnt bother you people that much, and that is why it has spread its a part of football as well..Cant remember where this quote is from;injustice in one sector leads to injustice on another, something n that line....Same can be said for racism, the accepting of racism in on part of the society leads to it in others..And until y'all stop being racist, its sad that there is always gonna be racism in football....Rant Over

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Lastly, i think English people are really racist and it really doesnt bother you people that much, and that is why it has spread its a part of football as well..Cant remember where this quote is from;injustice in one sector leads to injustice on another, something n that line....Same can be said for racism, the accepting of racism in on part of the society leads to it in others..And until y'all stop being racist, its sad that there is always gonna be racism in football....Rant Over

I do not believe this to be true.

I'm darker skinned and I've lived in England for 18 years. I've seldom suffer racial abuse, there has been cases, but for the majority (and I've been around England, North-South) there's a lot more diversity. People are welcoming and ignoring race,

[Kojo 4,676]

I do not believe this to be true.

I'm darker skinned and I've lived in England for 18 years. I've seldom suffer racial abuse, there has been cases, but for the majority (and I've been around England, North-South) there's a lot more diversity. People are welcoming and ignoring race,

Personally i think the postives outweigh the negatives when it comes to racisim. Because it could be a LOT! worse when you think about it. Many people are starting to accept others now, and once time goes by i think it will be perfect, at the moment you get a lot of old people who don't like others coming into the country, i think once the next generation comes on and they've been brought up around others it will start to come in more. I have no problems with any person who has different color skin, and quite frankly i don't care what color skin they have, i have a friend who's black, but i treat him like any other friend.

[BluesChick 1,260]

Lastly, i think English people are really racist and it really doesnt bother you people that much, and that is why it has spread its a part of football as well.

That is a huge generalization and just the type of generalization that causes arguments. Blanket statements aren't a good thing, I have said that time and time again.

Racism/discrimination needs to be fought at every level but the manner in which it is fought needs to be something that doesn't lend itself to interpretation by the enforcers and it has to make sense and should protect everyone not just one group over another. I also think we need to recognize that racism and discrimination is not only "white" people mistreating "black" people, it can go the other direction as well. When I was in college I never understood why we could have a "women in engineering" association, a society of black engineers (actual name), a society of asian engineers, a society of hispanic engineers, an association of African American Students or Hispanic or Asian or Indian or Native American, etc... but it was forbidden to have a group just for "Caucasian" students or a "society of male engineers" or join a group that you don't fit in with/aren't that ethnicity. It just seems bizarre to allow all these groups to segregate themselves and we actually encourage it. It seems odd when we are promoting unity and celebrating diversity that we allow these gaps and cracks in the unity.

I hope I made some semblance of sense.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

That is a huge generalization and just the type of generalization that causes arguments. Blanket statements aren't a good thing, I have said that time and time again.

Racism/discrimination needs to be fought at every level but the manner in which it is fought needs to be something that doesn't lend itself to interpretation by the enforcers and it has to make sense and should protect everyone not just one group over another. I also think we need to recognize that racism and discrimination is not only "white" people mistreating "black" people, it can go the other direction as well. When I was in college I never understood why we could have a "women in engineering" association, a society of black engineers (actual name), a society of asian engineers, a society of hispanic engineers, an association of African American Students or Hispanic or Asian or Indian or Native American, etc... but it was forbidden to have a group just for "Caucasian" students or a "society of male engineers" or join a group that you don't fit in with/aren't that ethnicity. It just seems bizarre to allow all these groups to segregate themselves and we actually encourage it. It seems odd when we are promoting unity and celebrating diversity that we allow these gaps and cracks in the unity.

I hope I made some semblance of sense.

Yes, this is very true and the OP made a similar comment about such societies in the police force. I think this is very wrong, not only does it now make caucasian people feel outcasted but it also enforces the segregation of different races. This is highly ironic because these 'societies' claim they're trying to break down these barriers while enforcing them at the same times.

As human beings we always look to differenciate ourselves and group accordingly. This is based on so many things from gender, age, appearance etc. Why does humanity always look to be so different? We should make more effort to be a communal society where we trust our felllow brothers are sisters regardless of any differentiating factors. Once we recognise this aim, globally, only then can we hope this eradication takes place in football.

[daBlackMamba7 174]

I do not believe this to be true.

I'm darker skinned and I've lived in England for 18 years. I've seldom suffer racial abuse, there has been cases, but for the majority (and I've been around England, North-South) there's a lot more diversity. People are welcoming and ignoring race,

Cmon guys i didnt mean everybody and everywhere, i just mean it is hugely accepted simple...I know people that go to school up there, so i am not just generalizing...And i have seen it pop up a couple of times in this forum, even in the transfer forum the other day someone was saying he didnt want Cavani in Chelsea cos he is Hispanic...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Speaking about racism in football, anyone saw those scum Liverpool fans abusing Oldham's Tom Adeyemi yesterday?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4045097/Liverpool-race-storm-Oldhams-Tom-Adeyemi-in-tears-at-abuse.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/06/oldham-tom-adeyemi-liverpool

The poor lad almost left the pitch in tears. And some people actually ask me why I hate Liverpool so much.

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

Speaking about racism in football, anyone saw those scum Liverpool fans abusing Oldham's Tom Adeyemi yesterday?

http://www.thesun.co...s-at-abuse.html

http://www.guardian....eyemi-liverpool

The poor lad almost left the pitch in tears. And some people actually ask me why I hate Liverpool so much.

Some Liverpool fans claiming the guy actually said "You Manc bastard"...

...Don't think that would bring him to tears considering he's only on loan at Oldham and is actually from Norwich.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Liverpool supporters have always been let down by a classless minority.

As for the person saying English people are racist, I think that's quite ironic seeing as though we're all part-French, part-German and part-Scandinavian. Britain is the most multi-cultural country in the world and you are generalising over token racist remarks that is caused by dissatisfaction with the status quo.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Cmon guys i didnt mean everybody and everywhere, i just mean it is hugely accepted simple...I know people that go to school up there, so i am not just generalizing...And i have seen it pop up a couple of times in this forum, even in the transfer forum the other day someone was saying he didnt want Cavani in Chelsea cos he is Hispanic...

Yes, I do understand what you meant. However I still belive you are misinformed, in any country you'll find your share of bigots. For example we have a lot of people in this country who will support EDL & BNP with their agenda regarding this issue. However a majority of people do not accept these 'parties' as legitimate & a majority of England would love to see them disbanded.

I take racism very seriously, and if you've seen my posts on topics like 'Global Revolution' you know I am not one to hold back in the face of injustice. Trust me when I say, the majority of England is very much against racism.

[daBlackMamba7 174]

Yes, I do understand what you meant. However I still belive you are misinformed, in any country you'll find your share of bigots. For example we have a lot of people in this country who will support EDL & BNP with their agenda regarding this issue. However a majority of people do not accept these 'parties' as legitimate & a majority of England would love to see them disbanded.

I take racism very seriously, and if you've seen my posts on topics like 'Global Revolution' you know I am not one to hold back in the face of injustice. Trust me when I say, the majority of England is very much against racism.

Hey bro, i know you do take it seriously i see a lot of your post on the various related thread and i know how personally you take it...Maybe i been a this judgmental because of some recent news that have been popping out from England and the shocking reactions i see towards it..

A musician called a slave at the airport, a news reporter using racist word on air (and still in a job), the various tram's and buses incidents, the list keeps going; the reason why they have led to my conclusion are not the incidents themselves but the reactions i see from a lot of English people trying to justify racism...This is probably not a very good example but if you followed any of those above mentioned incidents on sites that are populated by Americans compared to that populated by British, try reading the comments on youtube or the chelsea chat page compared with that of a site like worldstarhiphop(I know its dominated by a lot of black people but couldnt think of another site) on the above mentioned issue, you will see the huge difference in the way the general population think....Just saying that if there can be that many ignorant people online, it says a lot about the people that live in there....I know for sure there are areas and people who take it very seriously, but i believe it is swept under the carpet more.