Non-Chelsea Transfer Pub

[robsblubot 3,497]

Are we overhyping the importance of an orthodox defensive midfielder?

I look at United at the weekend and they played Carrick and Cleverley in the pivot. Cleverley is a more offensive midfielder and although Carrick is good defensively and plays a little deeper, I wouldn't say acting as a defensive shield is his strong point. None of their other midfielders (Fletcher, Anderson, Scholes) are orthodox defensive midfielders either.

Real Madrid are another - the likes of Khedira, Alonso and Modric can all press and put their foot in but none are orthodox defensive midfielders with the prime target to protect the defence.

If you have two midfielders with the legs to get around the park and press, but also have the intelligence not to push forward together and leave holes, this would allow us to utilise two midfielders with other strengths that are not just sitting and protecting the back 4.

Just a thought...

Good point, but if we play with the likes of Hazard, Mata, Moses/Oscar, and a striker up front then we sure do need a DM.

If Hazard, Mata, and Oscar develop the defensive side of their game, then we could potentially change and not even employ a DM, but I'd not do that right now.

[Corner 456]

Good point, but if we play with the likes of Hazard, Mata, Moses/Oscar, and a striker up front then we sure do need a DM.

If Hazard, Mata, and Oscar develop the defensive side of their game, then we could potentially change and not even employ a DM, but I'd not do that right now.

God I hope not. That would be a disaster!

It's all good and well having lots of flair players in our team, but we need someone to be the water-carrier and do the dirty work.

[robsblubot 3,497]

God I hope not. That would be a disaster!

It's all good and well having lots of flair players in our team, but we need someone to be the water-carrier and do the dirty work.

agreed, but the discussion is (or I thought it was) of all rounders vs specialists.

United seem to employ all rounders, so they can pressure more easily, even when away from home (like they did against us and City more recently). They also do not need a holding mid, because they defend well with 2 lines with RVP being the only one not very committed to defending.

I do agree that right now we cannot do that even if we wanted to, but in the long run who knows?!

[communicate 2,703]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Superblue_1986" data-cid="560906" data-time="1355310065"><p>

Are we overhyping the importance of an orthodox defensive midfielder?<br />

I look at United at the weekend and they played Carrick and Cleverley in the pivot. Cleverley is a more offensive midfielder and although Carrick is good defensively and plays a little deeper, I wouldn't say acting as a defensive shield is his strong point. None of their other midfielders (Fletcher, Anderson, Scholes) are orthodox defensive midfielders either.<br />

Real Madrid are another - the likes of Khedira, Alonso and Modric can all press and put their foot in but none are orthodox defensive midfielders with the prime target to protect the defence.<br />

If you have two midfielders with the legs to get around the park and press, but also have the intelligence not to push forward together and leave holes, this would allow us to utilise two midfielders with other strengths that are not just sitting and protecting the back 4.<br />

Just a thought...</p></blockquote>

It's really depend on what you want from your midfield.

The standard double pivot : a runner and a passer like you said clev/carrick or alondo/khedira. Time to time manu will play Carrick and scholes in mid if they want to boss the game better. The key is one of them have to be comfortable playing deeper and the other slighlty higher.

What we have right now:

Mikel/romeu : deeper not a passer

Lampard: higher + passer - but is not young anymore to go up and all day

Ramires: runner + higher

So what we need is either an alonso type to play with rami or lampard type to play with mikel. If we can get one player who can play both it's even better. I was surprised we did not go for dembele last summer. I thought he defintely can play lampard role

[Milan 17,853]

Here's a list of players whose contracts end after this season and who still have not renewed it. Some interesting names included.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

Honda could be very useful.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

We are now linked with isco of malaga.Even though we are loaded in his position his price tag of 17m is very mouthwatering.

[Madmax 9,219]

It depends on what you want. You want to be like Maure or Barcelona (reputation)?

If Roman really wants us to be the best club in the world we need a top class pivot. It not only is extremely improtant on a 4-2-3-1, but it also stops the team from having a super attacking mentality with your midfields dont have ability (Busquets, Vidal, De Rossi, etc).

Like I said, Mikel is good enough, but he is not world class.

Do United really have a world class player in every position? I don't think you believe that. Does Barcelona have a team of world class players or does the fact that the intensity with which the players coming through their system are ingrained with their philosophy and beliefs about the way they should play make those players world class? There is a big difference.

United is top of the league not because they have world class players but because they know how to get the best out of the players at their disposal i.e making the most of the available skills to your advantage. Hence my contention that not every player on the team needs to be world class. It's about finding a way to play that suits your strengths. Benitez had it spot on the other day :

You need to know the players and find the balance. If you have too many players with quality - these players we were talking about, all dynamic but cannot regain the ball - you do not have the balance. If you give the ball away, you have to regain [it].

What is important for the midfield pivot is to stay disciplined and know their role i.e link the defence and flair players, provide solid cover for the fullbacks and keep things ticking over. For this role, Mikel will suffice if they stick to the script and not do anything silly.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Do United really have a world class player in every position? I don't think you believe that. Does Barcelona have a team of world class players or does the fact that the intensity with which the players coming through their system are ingrained with their philosophy and beliefs about the way they should play make those players world class? There is a big difference.

United is top of the league not because they have world class players but because they know how to get the best out of the players at their disposal i.e making the most of the available skills to your advantage. Hence my contention that not every player on the team needs to be world class. It's about finding a way to play that suits your strengths. Benitez had it spot on the other day :

What is important for the midfield pivot is to stay disciplined and know their role i.e link the defence and flair players, provide solid cover for the fullbacks and keep things ticking over. For this role, Mikel will suffice if they stick to the script and not do anything silly.

No, no, no.

I was saying, do you want us to be like Manure or like Barcelona?

If we want to be Manure, Mikel is more than fine. If we want to be Barcelona, Mikel does not have the mobility and vision necessary (even for a DM)....

[Madmax 9,219]

I want us to be Chelsea; I want us to develop our own style of play that maximises each Chelsea player's contribution to the Chelsea clause by best utilizing their skill set. If Chelsea feel they need someone better than Mikel to better fit what they want to see on the pitch, then fine. That's not the case though, they've just handed him a 5 year deal

[Rmpr 8,977]

I want us to be Chelsea; I want us to develop our own style of play that maximises each Chelsea player's contribution to the Chelsea clause by best utilizing their skill set. If Chelsea feel they need someone better than Mikel to better fit what they want to see on the pitch, then fine. That's not the case though, they've just handed him a 5 year deal

LOL

Dont you dodge the question and pretend you answered it all wrong.

I was talking about reputation, not playing style or identity.

If we want to be rembered as one of the most successful team, but not with exceptionally great playing style (Manure), Mikel is fine.

If our aspirations are higher (Barcelona), Mikel needs to be replaced by one of the best DMs (De Rossi, Vidal, Busquets).

Btw, I am not saying Mikel will be sold, never did, he would not be our first option though.

[Madmax 9,219]

I was talking about reputation, not playing style or identity.

If we want to be rembered as one of the most successful team, but not with exceptionally great playing style (Manure), Mikel is fine.

If our aspirations are higher (Barcelona), Mikel needs to be replaced by one of the best DMs (De Rossi, Vidal, Busquets).

Btw, I am not saying Mikel will be sold, never did, he would not be our first option though.

1. I am not dodging questions, we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise.

2. Is 'reputation' not linked to playing style or identity? If no, what?

3. The essence of your second para there seems awfully simplistic to me. Maybe I'm missing something but from that para what I gather is have ambition? ----> replace Mikel by one of (DDR/Busquets/Vidal) ----> jump in 'success' ---> great 'reputation'.

4. My point about the contract was that the club see him as an essential part of the future (250 apps, 6 yrs experience) and rewarded him accordingly. That fits in with what I'm saying about evolving our own style. If they had something else in mind, that wouldn't have been the case. I don't know where the part about selling him came from.

[Rmpr 8,977]

1. I am not dodging questions, we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise.

2. Is 'reputation' not linked to playing style or identity? If no, what?

3. The essence of your second para there seems awfully simplistic to me. Maybe I'm missing something but from that para what I gather is have ambition? ----> replace Mikel by one of (DDR/Busquets/Vidal) ----> jump in 'success' ---> great 'reputation'.

4. My point about the contract was that the club see him as an essential part of the future (250 apps, 6 yrs experience) and rewarded him accordingly. That fits in with what I'm saying about evolving our own style. If they had something else in mind, that wouldn't have been the case. I don't know where the part about selling him came from.

How can you not see it?

If Roman (who has the final decision) wants us to play tiki-taka, Mikel wont fit and he will be replaced.

If Roman only want us to win, independently if we will have the world praising our football. Mikel can continue to be our first choice DM.

We might not be comfortable with the situation, but Abramovich does seek media glory.

OBS: If you were to ask me, I would say to keep Mikel but buy someone who can compete with him, someone cheap. I also dont want the passing bullshit, I want a direct and objective football, something Chelsea can relate to. However, I dont count...

OBS 2: He wants to read the newspaper on May 20th 20XX and read the journalists writing about our style and beautiful football, not just the tittle. For instance, Manure vs Barcelona in media coverage. Of course he want us to be Chelsea, but dont try to deny you have got the idea.

[Strike 7,217]

anyone know a list of good players whose contracts expire this summer?

- Huntelaar, Walcott who else?

[Madmax 9,219]

How can you not see it?

If Roman (who has the final decision) wants us to play tiki-taka, Mikel wont fit and he will be replaced.

If Roman only want us to win, independently if we will have the world praising our football. Mikel can continue to be our first choice DM.

We might not be comfortable with the situation, but Abramovich does seek media glory.

OBS: If you were to ask me, I would say to keep Mikel but buy someone who can compete with him, someone cheap. I also dont want the passing bullshit, I want a direct and objective football, something Chelsea can relate to. However, I dont count...

I really do wonder how people (not you specifically, Kal) know what Roman wants. He hasn't given an interview in 10 years!

Of course what either of us wants is moot; that goes without saying. Does he want tiki-taka? Nobody but him knows. Does he want Mikel around? Yes. How do we know? New 5 year deal.

Let's agree to disagree here, we're not getting anywhere.

[Rmpr 8,977]

anyone know a list of good players whose contracts expire this summer?

- Huntelaar, Walcott who else?

I could list some I know, but this site actually has a decent list: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/spieler/vertragsende/basics_ES1_2013.html

[Rmpr 8,977]

I really do wonder how people (not you specifically, Kal) know what Roman wants. He hasn't given an interview in 10 years!

Of course what either of us wants is moot; that goes without saying. Does he want tiki-taka? Nobody but him knows. Does he want Mikel around? Yes. How do we know? New 5 year deal.

Let's agree to disagree here, we're not getting anywhere.

Alright!

1. No one really knows for sure, we only speculate.

2. Mikel deserved that deal, whether he will have a stariting position in the next 2-3-4 years, we dont know.

Lets finish it here then!

[Spike 12,049]

Imagine if Rafa signed Xabi Alonso...sweet dreams.