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Jason

Super Frank Thread

Started by Jason,

2,808 posts in this topic
20 minutes ago, bigbluewillie said:

Whooooa hold on let's see how he performs when he gets the chance to bring in his own players.

And not judge him on solely on the players he has at his disposal, i think any manager would struggle with most of them.

I think Tactics, gameplan,shape, and attitude, comes from having round pegs in round holes, and not the mish mash he has at present.

In Lamps I trust, and I think if we are fortunate enough to finish 4th then I think he will have done well.

KTBFFH

Sorry but I take an average side with a WC manager than the other way round. Attitude etc I mentioned comes from the manager. THis squad can be more solid, more resolute but we aint. We can rectify many mistakes but we dont, what the hell do they do in practice? Still if we get top4 ( fat chance ) then im all in for him having another go IF his ass is backed.

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55 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Sorry but I take an average side with a WC manager than the other way round. 

I wouldn't, even the very best managers can only take limited teams so far as we know all to well, however the other way round - Avram Grant got dragged to a title race and two finals, Scolari won a world cup, Pellegrini won the league and Valverde won back to back titles.

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Chelsea have problems at both ends of pitch and three at the back is not helping

https://theathletic.com/1644608/2020/03/01/chelsea-frank-lampard-bournemouth-formation/?source=shared-article

Chelsea have reached the end of February without Frank Lampard knowing his best tactical system, never mind his best team.

He has oscillated between 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 3-4-2-1 throughout a rollercoaster season and sometimes switched formations during games. All of it has been motivated by the search for the thing that all successful coaches and teams strive for: balance.

Of the three systems, 3-4-2-1 has been his safety net whenever real adversity has struck. Shifting to three at the back secured a 5-2 away win over Wolves in September, as well as a Premier League double over Tottenham that dramatically altered the landscape of the race for fourth place.

“When they have a run of bad results, they go to five (three centre-backs with wing-backs). When they have a run of bad results, they go to (Marcos) Alonso and that’s what they did when they played against Lille and against us in the first match (Chelsea’s 2-1 win at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in December),” Jose Mourinho said pointedly after Tottenham lost at Stamford Bridge last weekend.

“That’s what, of course, I knew they were going to do again. It’s obvious. When they’re in a run of good results, they go to different players.”

But this week has underlined that 3-4-2-1 is not the all-encompassing solution for Lampard that it was for Antonio Conte in the autumn of 2016. Bayern Munich overran Chelsea’s midfield and destroyed their defence at Stamford Bridge on Tuesday, while only the preternatural goalscoring ability of Marcos Alonso spared Lampard another embarrassing defeat away at Bournemouth on Saturday.

Both teams hurt Chelsea in different ways. Bayern limited them to 36.7 per cent possession — a season low — and targeted the right side of their defence, with the rampant combination of Alphonso Davies and Serge Gnabry overwhelming Reece James and Cesar Azpilicueta. Bournemouth blitzed them with high pressing at the start of each half, capitalised on a long-standing Chelsea weakness defending set pieces, and exploited the space behind Alonso with Jack Stacey.

At the other end, Bayern defended with a high line, pinning Chelsea into their own half whenever possible. On the few occasions that Mason Mount managed to break their offside trap, the recovery speed of Davies and David Alaba quickly erased the opportunity. Bournemouth instead set up in a low block, encouraging Lampard’s team to pass sideways and funnelling them wide; Chelsea attempted a season-high 807 passes at the Vitality Stadium and delivered 30 crosses from open play.

No two football matches play out the same way but a broader analysis of Chelsea’s performances this season generates two firm conclusions: 3-4-2-1 has not afforded them the defensive solidity that Lampard hoped it would and it has further impeded their stuttering attack.

“It is a system which has worked well for us quite a few times this season,” Lampard said of 3-4-2-1 after the Bournemouth game. “We have Olivier Giroud up front and it allows people to get inside, nearer him. Second balls and link-ups. It gives us stability — you hope — with the three centre-backs and when you move the ball well you can control games. We did manage to control things once we settled into the game and livened up. It does help in that way with us. It is a system I like for that.”

Chelsea have played 35 matches across the Premier League and Champions League this season. Lampard has arranged his starting XI in a 4-2-3-1 for 18 of those, in a 4-3-3 for eight of them and in a 3-4-2-1 on nine occasions. The win percentages are as follows: 44.4 per cent in 4-2-3-1, 37.5 per cent in 4-3-3 and 55.6 per cent in 3-4-2-1.

The basic numbers suggest 3-4-2-1 is Lampard’s best tactical option for this Chelsea squad but a deeper dive into the analytics reveals a more complex reality. For starters, playing a three-man central defence with wing-backs hasn’t made the team markedly better defensively. They have still conceded an average of 1.44 goals per game, with an expected goals against (xGA) of 1.14 per game.

By way of comparison, Chelsea average 1.5 goals conceded per game in a 4-2-3-1 and their xGA is exactly the same — 1.14 per game. In a 4-3-3 they have let in 1.38 goals per game, though their xGA of 0.89 suggests they have been marginally unlucky.

How their defence performs in different formations (per game)
4-2-3-1: 1.5 goals conceded, 1.14 xGA, 9.7 shots faced, 3.6 shots on target faced
4-3-3: 1.38 goals conceded, 0.89 xGA, 8.8 shots faced, 2.6 shots on target faced
3-4-2-1: 1.44 goals conceded, 1.14 xGA, 8.1 shots faced, 3.2 shots on target faced

Chelsea do give up fewer shot attempts in matches where Lampard plays a 3-4-2-1 — 8.1 per game, down from 9.7 per game in a 4-2-3-1 and 8.8 per game in a 4-3-3 — but their overall xGA figure indicates they still give up a similar number of high quality chances. They concede 3.2 shots on target per game in a 3-4-2-1, only marginally down from 3.6 in a 4-2-3-1.

There is plenty of reason to believe, however, that Chelsea are a worse attacking team in a 3-4-2-1. Their xG in the nine games Lampard has started with it is 1.68 goals per game, compared to 1.95 goals per game in a 4-2-3-1 and 2.1 goals per game in a 4-3-3. They register fewer shot attempts per game (14.7), fewer shots on target per game (4.6) and create fewer chances per game (11.1) in a 3-4-2-1 than in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

How their attack performs in different formations (per game)
4-2-3-1: 1.79 goals, 1.95 xG, 17.3 shots, 6.2 shots on target
4-3-3: 1.38 goals, 2.1 xG, 17 shots, 5.8 shots on target
3-4-2-1: 1.67 goals, 1.68 xG, 14.7 shots, 4.6 shots on target

Playing with three central defenders also alters where Chelsea tend to have the ball. Lampard’s team attempt more passes per game (595.1) in a 3-4-2-1 system than in the other two formations but a greater proportion of these happen in their own half (285.1) and fewer in the opposition half (292). Their 55.2 per cent average overall share of possession is lower than in a 4-2-3-1 (59.7 per cent) or 4-3-3 (58.3 per cent), suggesting that we are seeing more sterile passing rather than genuine control.

Chelsea’s domination of the ball was even more extreme against Bournemouth. They had a season-high 73.2 per cent share of possession, with 454 of their 807 attempted passes occurring in the opposition half. Despite this, however, just six of their 23 shot attempts tested the impressive Aaron Ramsdale and their xG of 1.85 wasn’t much better than the home side’s 1.31.

The most beneficial aspect of a 3-4-2-1 for Chelsea’s attack is that it puts their wing-backs, two players with unique gifts, in the best position to impact the final third. James delivered 16 crosses in the match, many of which caused panic and one which was flicked onto the crossbar by Giroud before rebounding to Alonso for the opening goal.

Alonso might be the most natural goalscorer in Lampard’s squad, and the timing of his runs into the penalty area — particularly when James was primed to deliver the ball from the other flank — caused Bournemouth constant problems. He had more touches in the opposition box (11) and more shots (seven) than any other Chelsea player at the Vitality Stadium.

Chelsea created a couple of good chances aside from Alonso’s opening goal while in a 3-4-2-1, largely from James crosses. But the extra centre-back did not prevent them from conceding two goals in the space of three shambolic minutes early in the second half, and it was only when Lampard substituted Fikayo Tomori for Willian and switched to 4-3-3 that the equaliser arrived.

Part of Chelsea’s collapse sprang from a set-piece frailty that exists regardless of what system Lampard plays. As a team, they lack height and physicality, even with Alonso and Giroud in the starting XI, so it was no surprise when Jefferson Lerma easily out-jumped Mateo Kovacic and Andreas Christensen in the 54th minute to head past Willy Caballero.

It was the eighth goal Chelsea have conceded from a corner kick this season — only Aston Villa and Norwich, the bottom two teams in the Premier League table, have given away more (nine). At the other end, Lampard’s team never looked likely to make much of the 14 corner kicks they won themselves. Christensen is yet to score a goal for the club in 92 senior appearances.

“Everyone wants to point to the defence but we work all week on our defence,” Lampard said after the game. “But at the same time, if you’re going to create something like 23 chances and (send) balls slashing across the face (of the box), those are the chances that you need to stick away. That’s what creates the nervousness.

“I’m very happy for Marcos Alonso but when I think that my left-back is the one scoring the two goals and he scored our last goal in the league as well, and you’re creating that many chances in between, you have to question why we’re not finishing them.”

Chelsea have taken just 19 points from their last 16 Premier League matches. Even in a Champions League qualification race as low in quality as this one, a continuation of that form is highly unlikely to be enough to finish fourth. Lampard has big issues to solve at both ends of the pitch, and there is little cause for confidence that three at the back can provide the balance he is looking for.

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I've got to say it seems Frank's hasnt got a clue how to coach a back 3 - and you definitely need to coach it.

We've already lost the patterns we had under Conte (understandable) and hes not getting it back. Api and tomori were so fucking close on saturday it was difficult to pass out when it should have been the easiest phase.

Honestly Frank play the same 11 when we were playing good football. 433/4231 hybrid especially with kante out.

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My just one complaint is sort out a back 4 and stick with it.

Then we'll still have the knockers and haters saying why is he playing doo dah and not doody iayay

One thing has been evident is that Alonso is a LWB and not a LB, but these last last couple of games he's been splendid as LWB

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15 hours ago, Tomo said:

I wouldn't, even the very best managers can only take limited teams so far as we know all to well, however the other way round - Avram Grant got dragged to a title race and two finals, Scolari won a world cup, Pellegrini won the league and Valverde won back to back titles.

And all those are better than FL in most ways. A quality mananger can get the absolute best of an average team, make them look better. An average manager cannot make the most of what he has in a quality squad. Scolari yes won the WC, but totally fluffed it here with an incredible squad. WC's etc cannot be compared to a League, its totally different circumstances. Man if we had that 2008 squad right now.

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2 hours ago, Atomiswave said:

Man if we had that 2008 squad right now.

Exactly, we would be challenging despite the fact the manager still has a lot to learn just like how we did challenge with a man who went onto finish bottom at his next two clubs.

Flick it the other way round and actually the example you bring with Simeone is a good reference here. For all the good he's done that you rave about, since they won the league they've won one trophy in six years (two if you count super cups) which they were in in the first place due to failure to beat Qarabag twice and advance from the CL group stage. Would the fans accept that sort of return here? I think we both know the answer to that.

Basically the point I'm making is, give an average manager our 05/06 squad they may still win the league while not even Fergie would win the title with this one.

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2 hours ago, Tomo said:

Basically the point I'm making is, give an average manager our 05/06 squad they may still win the league while not even Fergie would win the title with this one.

Good points, yes FL would do damage with that monster squad in 05-06, but would we see them at their best? Would FL show their potential as a young JM did? No chance.

Nahh this one has no chance of a title no matter whom it is, but we can def be better, much more solid. You give a proper Conte this squad and top4 would have been done and dusted long long ago we would not be fighting for our dear lives.

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5 hours ago, Tomo said:

Basically the point I'm making is, give an average manager our 05/06 squad they may still win the league while not even Fergie would win the title with this one.

We will probably still win the league with an average manager - yes, but with a PL record of conceding 15 goals all season (or less?). I don't think so, especially with FL in charge.

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We will probably still win the league with an average manager - yes, but with a PL record of conceding 15 goals all season (or less?). I don't think so, especially with FL in charge.
Why shouldn't that be possible?
Mou for instance can't fix Spurs defence either, even though he coached our golden team?

Guardiola himself does not consider himself the best Coach because he himself said that he only won so much due to his players

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18 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Why shouldn't that be possible?
Mou for instance can't fix Spurs defence either, even though he coached our golden team?

Guardiola himself does not consider himself the best Coach because he himself said that he only won so much due to his players

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Because Lampard doesn't know how to coach at the back. Nor his coaching staff. The hard evidence is there.

Mourinho doesn't have Rui Faria now unlike before and Faria made a huge difference with Mourinho.

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I'd wager it is more likely for another club to become invincibles than another club to win the league and only conceded 15 goals. 

Madness. Honestly hate Anelka. We would of been invincibles and to have only conceded 14 goals!

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2 hours ago, Mana said:

Because Lampard doesn't know how to coach at the back. Nor his coaching staff. The hard evidence is there.

Mourinho doesn't have Rui Faria now unlike before and Faria made a huge difference with Mourinho.

Mourinho became outdated because the way teams defends right now is completely different the way they used to. His defensive system became outdated. Mourinho was essentially a reactive manager who tried to exploit mistakes made by his opponents: Ba goal after Gerrard made THAT mistake is sums up Mourinho football philosophy. Right now even smaller teams are trying a different approach and sometimes they will advance their defensive lines and try to force defenders to make mistakes. Even when teams are playing with 11 players behind the ball, its usually in a more advanced line to force the opponents to exchange passes between defenders, making the life a lot more difficult for the team who wants to create (think about Sarriball last season, the the team had the most of the possession, but most of if were David Luiz and Rudiger exchanging passes and Luiz trying his long passes), and thats also mean the CB needs to be more than a destroyer, and many managers are looking after CBs with great first touch and passing, and this is the reason why Sarri kept Luiz in his team.

Mourinho's last great job was 10 years ago with Inter. He belongs to the 00s. In past decade he was already outdated, in this decade he will be one of those manager who will pretty much get a job based in his past reputation. Football changed fast in last 10 years. Mourinho stagnated. Its too late to catch up.

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55 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I'd wager it is more likely for another club to become invincibles than another club to win the league and only conceded 15 goals. 

If Liverpool had Allison in from the start they may have been in with a shot of doing it this season, luckily for us that clown Adrian played for the first couple of months so they couldn't keep a clean sheet for shit.

Thankfully though it looks like they are starting to peak out and hit a more standard top team level so they've probably had their chance with that one.

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12 hours ago, killer1257 said:

Why shouldn't that be possible?
Mou for instance can't fix Spurs defence either, even though he coached our golden team?

Guardiola himself does not consider himself the best Coach because he himself said that he only won so much due to his players

Gesendet von meinem SM-G920F mit Tapatalk
 

You are absolutely right. Any manager is as good as their player, that is 100% right. You can put klopp, Guardiola and saf combine and they won't win epl with Newcastle. 

But good manager can make team better and  bad manager can make them worse. 

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13 hours ago, Mana said:

Because Lampard doesn't know how to coach at the back. Nor his coaching staff. The hard evidence is there.

Mourinho doesn't have Rui Faria now unlike before and Faria made a huge difference with Mourinho.

That's one thing is looking true unfortunately and i even said as much in pre season. If it's something that can't be somewhat fixed with top quality defenders and top keeper then he should seriously consider bringing in a defensive coach (not JT, a proper specialist).

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13 hours ago, Tomo said:

If Liverpool had Allison in from the start they may have been in with a shot of doing it this season, luckily for us that clown Adrian played for the first couple of months so they couldn't keep a clean sheet for shit.

Thankfully though it looks like they are starting to peak out and hit a more standard top team level so they've probably had their chance with that one.

Allison conceded 12 goals in 20 games. In full season no chance he would concede less then 20+ goals.

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45 minutes ago, Jason said:

Tonight's performance against Liverpool was the kind of streetwise, pragmatic performance that was missing against Bayern. 

Not just Bayern. Ajax, Man United, Man City amongst others. This is how we should look to play against bigger teams or in certain tricky games. 

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5 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Not just Bayern. Ajax, Man United, Man City amongst others. This is how we should look to play against bigger teams or in certain tricky games. 

The performance at City was okay, IMO. We played relatively well, weren't blown away but just didn't have enough firepower to trouble them. 

Agree with the others and don't forget that silly basketball game at Valencia! 

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