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Jason

5. Jorginho

Started by Jason,

1,456 posts in this topic
6 hours ago, Spike said:

Imagine having a bad game occasionally.

The Jorginho hate is odd. People are forgetting that we played our best football this season with Jorgy and Kova in the midfield playing impeccable 1-2 combos to slice teams open. His defensive work in mid to low blocks is impressive also. He get's caught on the counter easily but if we had decent defenders it wouldn't always be a problem. Let's not forget the pens he has banged in at crucial times this season too. 

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22 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Personally for me, while we werent particularly solid at the beginning of the season and still fot caught on transitions, we still looked better with Jorginho, Kovacic and Mount in MF than we do now. 

My point with jorgi is he need to give us more. He need a kante/kova next to him to protect him and also help him bring the ball forward as ball carrier. what is his job then?  There are a few game I thought he played well helping us bring the ball (can't remember against whom, it has been a while) but he need to give us more of that, he is not a kid. 

I have no problem with jorgi last year, if we want to play Sarriball total possession sure, but we want to play faster and more direct so he ned to adjust his passing. 

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15 minutes ago, DDA said:

The Jorginho hate is odd. People are forgetting that we played our best football this season with Jorgy and Kova in the midfield playing impeccable 1-2 combos to slice teams open. His defensive work in mid to low blocks is impressive also. He get's caught on the counter easily but if we had decent defenders it wouldn't always be a problem. Let's not forget the pens he has banged in at crucial times this season too. 

Is it? 

24 starts

9 losses (United, pool, city, whu, Bournemouth, soton, newcastle, United, Sheffield)

6 draws (Leicester, Sheffield, Brighton, arsenal, Leicester, Brighton)

9 wins.

 

Without jorginho starting 

11 games

9 wins, 0 draws, 2 losses 

Honestly it's not difficult to see why the "jorginho hate".

One of the most useless players I have seen

 

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25 minutes ago, DDA said:

He get's caught on the counter easily but if we had decent defenders it wouldn't always be a problem. 

That is crazy mindset, it only work if you play super controlling football otherwise your defender pretty much have to be perfect everytime 

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7 hours ago, Spike said:

Imagine having a bad game occasionally.

Lol

We have as many wins in 11 games (9wins) when jorginho is not starting to 9 wins in 24 games that he has started in PL this season.

'bad game occasionally' got to be one biased opinions ever with literally no concrete logic or stat to support it.

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9 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Is it? 

24 starts

9 losses (United, pool, city, whu, Bournemouth, soton, newcastle, United, Sheffield)

6 draws (Leicester, Sheffield, Brighton, arsenal, Leicester, Brighton)

9 wins.

 

Without jorginho starting 

11 games

9 wins, 0 draws, 2 losses 

Honestly it's not difficult to see why the "jorginho hate".

One of the most useless players I have seen

 

Jorginho is not useless. 

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His last performance was probably the worst performance of a no. 6 at Chelsea I have seen my whole life

 

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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Gorgo is not useless, he needs help in midfield, the likes of Ross etc will never provide that. I still dont understand why FL is so adament changing the line-up every game, we need stability and that wont give us that. That being said he is clearly a goner, get Kai and Partey if possible.

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1 hour ago, DDA said:

Jorginho is not useless. 

I would love for us to have a regista who controls the game. But that cant be jorginho. He is not made for PL. Physicality, speed. Nothing. Unfortunately our defence and GK are a shambles too, so his deficiencies are maginified everytime he takes the field for us. 9 wins and 9 defeats in 24 starts is telling. 9 wins in the remaining 11 games, it cant just be a co-incidence.

I was not happy with gilmour's performance against palace, but atleast we were not so open and screwed with him on the pitch. Jorginho controlled the mid for 15 mins and when the opposition put him and us under the kosh, he went missing. Thats not what a DM is there for. 

He needs to leave for the italian league which suits him. But the way we are building the squad (Mount, Kai, RLC, Barkley), its clear FL wants 2 no. 8s. He is a mismatch in this system. I just hope he does not take the pitch for us again. For his and our sake.

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Is it? 
24 starts
9 losses (United, pool, city, whu, Bournemouth, soton, newcastle, United, Sheffield)
6 draws (Leicester, Sheffield, Brighton, arsenal, Leicester, Brighton)
9 wins.
 
Without jorginho starting 
11 games
9 wins, 0 draws, 2 losses 
Honestly it's not difficult to see why the "jorginho hate".
One of the most useless players I have seen
 
But what did the fixture list look like for the 11 games without him? 4 of those loses with him are because the other teams were better.

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41 minutes ago, Supermonkey92 said:

But what did the fixture list look like for the 11 games without him? 4 of those loses with him are because the other teams were better.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

I can check that. But just off the top of my head. Man City win. Spurs win. Everton 4-0 win which was easily our best performance of the season. 

So I don't think the opposition is the issue here.

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13 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol

We have as many wins in 11 games (9wins) when jorginho is not starting to 9 wins in 24 games that he has started in PL this season.

'bad game occasionally' got to be one biased opinions ever with literally no concrete logic or stat to support it.

That isn't logical or even a worthwhile statistic because it ignores nearly every other fundamental influence on the sport, to look at the sport in such a simple manner is reductive, pointless, and ultimately signals a lack of critical thinking. That is just cause-effect with conjecture. A player can have a good game in a loss, and a bad game in a win. A team sport is typically won and lost through the team, not one player; ergo the only bias here is coming from you.

The information you've completely ignored:

  • The other ten Chelsea players and subs
  • The eleven opposition plus subs
  • Formation and approach of both teams
  • Chelsea's form
  • Opponet's form
  • injuries
  • fitness

'bUt JoRgiNho PlaYs whEN teAM lOSes' is an argument you should be ashamed of.

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34 minutes ago, Spike said:

That isn't logical or even a worthwhile statistic because it ignores nearly every other fundamental influence on the sport, to look at the sport in such a simple manner is reductive, pointless, and ultimately signals a lack of critical thinking. That is just cause-effect with conjecture. A player can have a good game in a loss, and a bad game in a win. A team sport is typically won and lost through the team, not one player; ergo the only bias here is coming from you.

The information you've completely ignored:

'bUt JoRgiNho PlaYs whEN teAM lOSes' is an argument you should be ashamed of.

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding. The point is "the team loses when jorginho plays". Hence the cause and effect. 

So according to you,

1. The other 10 players play better when jorginho does not start

2. The eleven opposition plus subs start playing better when he does not start

3. Our form suddenly dips and then peaks to accomodate jorginho

Well these are some eye opening relevations.

Stop trying to ignore the main point and fact in front of you. Jorginho makes us weaker. He plays the most pivotal role in any football club - a DM. The link between the defence, mid and attack. 

He is the one player that the opposition continuously attack as they know they will get purchase from it. His lack of defensive solidarity makes our already weak defense and GK, look poorer. 

Your point of it all being just random chance and co-incidence or even "form" would have been acceptable if jorginho had had an injury and we had played those 11 games at a stretch. But we have not. These 11 games are spread across the season to accomodate his susoensions, couple of games through injury and some due to tactical exclusions. So "chance" or "form" or "luck" and trivial arguments like "opposition's" go out of the window. Look at the wins we have had - city, spurs, Everton. 

So no, Its not a "mere co-incidence". Trying to justify this very apparent link between our poor results and jorginho's inclusion is what is simplistic thinking and denial. 

I am just glad that FL sees it that way, and jorginho is on his way out. His Chelsea career is probably a thing that he and us fans can't wait to forget.

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28 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding. The point is "the team loses when jorginho plays". Hence the cause and effect. No misunderstanding at all, I actually said that in my post. But all you've mentioned is effect and cause without context. I could say 'Chelsea lose when air pressure is below average' and if the information is condusive that proves my point right? No, it is just conjecture and reducing cause and effect to a rudimentary form. It is never so simple and if it were, I'm positive someone like Frank Lampard would have figured it out many times before you.

So according to you, No actually, I never said any of that nonsense.

1. The other 10 players play better when jorginho does not start There is no proof, only conjecture, just because a team *wins* doesn't mean they've *played better*

2. The eleven opposition plus subs start playing better when he does not start Again more conjecture, this isn't a logical conclusion. 

3. Our form suddenly dips and then peaks to accomodate jorginho That is the only factor?

Well these are some eye opening relevations.

Stop trying to ignore the main point and fact in front of you. Jorginho makes us weaker. Does he though? He plays the most pivotal role in any football club - a DM. That i The link between the defence, mid and attack. That is a complete exaggeration, a person could make several arguments for near any position on the field, I'd even argue that Jorginho isn't even a defensive midfielder because his duties aren't simply defensive in nature.

He is the one player that the opposition continuously attack as they know they will get purchase from it.Do they now? I suppose I'll take your word for that, even if it is an assumption, I suppose you've read the opposition instructions His lack of defensive solidarity Since when was he a bad defender? makes our already weak defense and GK, look poorer. 

Your point of it all being just random chance Never once mentioned random chance and co-incidence or even "form" Why is form in quotations, does form not exist?  would have been acceptable if jorginho had had an injury and we had played those 11 games at a stretch. But we have not. These 11 games are spread across the season to accomodate his susoensions, couple of games through injury You just said he wasn't injured though and some due to tactical exclusions. So "chance" or "form" or "luck" More quotes? and trivial arguments like "opposition's" go out of the window. Look at the wins we have had - city, spurs, Everton. City, spurs, everton... Is that even an argument? Not really it is just information without context, and content sans context means nothing. 

So no, Its not a "mere co-incidence". Against what is up with the quotation marks? Who are you quoting? Trying to justify this very apparent link between our poor results and jorginho's inclusion is what is simplistic thinking and denial. 
So no, it is not a mere coincidence. Trying to justify this very apparent link between our good results and Jorginho's exclusion is simplistic thinking and denial. 

I am just glad that FL sees it that way, and jorginho is on his way out. Who told you that!? His Chelsea career is probably a thing that he and us fans can't wait to forget.

 

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Ahh fuck around. My brain can't handle these kind of posts ^^^^

My intellect only allows for the processing of words such as, win, loss, fuck, shyte or fuming. 

 

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6 minutes ago, DDA said:

Ahh fuck around. My brain can't handle these kind of posts ^^^^

My intellect only allows for the processing of words such as, win, loss, fuck, shyte or fuming. 

 

How about this 'Win or loss, Puliszola's logic is shyte'. It doesn't even matter if Jorginho is a good player or not because the means of coming to that conclusion are rubbish.

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9 minutes ago, Spike said:

 

This is some weird way to reply, but I will try to make whatever sense I can out of it (not that the previous posts made any)

"Who told you that!?"

Umm the fact that he was only started after kante, kova and Gilmour were all injured. Pretty self explanatory, unless someone wants to continue being in denial.

 

"City, spurs, everton... Is that even an argument? Not really it is just information without context, and content sans context means nothing. "

Is it not an argument? You raised a point regarding the oppositions and these are top clubs who we beat despite jorginho not playing. Also checked. Add arsenal to that list. So that's 4 top teams in 9 wins. Again, pretty evident and self explanatory of why these names are being taken.

"You just said he wasn't injured though "

No. I said he was not injured for a long term, which would have made things like form a valid argument. But like I very well explained that these games were soread across the season so form is a moot argument.

"That is a complete exaggeration, a person could make several arguments for near any position on the field, I'd even argue that Jorginho isn't even a defensive midfielder because his duties aren't simply defensive in nature."

Lol and here we were all thinking he plays as a defensive midfielder. Everything is clear now. Jorginho is absolved. 😂

"There is no proof, only conjecture, just because a team *wins* doesn't mean they've *played better*"

Never made a point of winning means played better. Anyways, I am sure such conjectures would be happening with many players, right? We have 35 games, 18 wins and 11 losses. I would love such "conjectures" with several more of our players who have either been excluded or included for atleast 10 games (so as to have a decent sample size) and which gives such drastic results and differences between win% (37.5% vs 81%). Should be pretty easy, right?

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5 minutes ago, Spike said:

How about this 'Win or loss, Puliszola's logic is shyte'. It doesn't even matter if Jorginho is a good player or not because the means of coming to that conclusion are rubbish.

Aah. More gibberish.

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I'll try and make it as simple as possible. Frank and other people including myself don't fancy Jorginho because he's a defensive liability playing infront of the defense and doesn't create enough to compensate for his shortcomings. On top of that, he can only play in that one position which makes him a very limited player in fuction and output. Fabregas was just as bad but he created chances at will.

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