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the wes

19. Mason Mount

Started by the wes,

373 posts in this topic
1 hour ago, Robchels said:

hmm don't follow.

AFAIK Mount did not play last season, but Ross did. So, the one player shoehorned here was Mount (presumably based on pre-season performances which don't matter one bit).

Like I said, regardless of how promising mount is, and I think he is very promising, this was the sort of game to be a bit more conservative and play the established starters as much a possible. And I think Lampard did not do that at all today. For me the thrashing is on lamps, not the players.

If Mount didn't play today, then Pulisic would have so the idea of established starters doesn't really hold up for that particular example because both are young and relatively inexperienced.

The only other 'established starters' I can assume is Alonso and Giroud (taking the assumption that Kante isn't fully fit). For me, Emerson was one of the better players and I'm more than happy if he establishes himself first choice this season and the Tammy/Giroud debate is a difficult one. There were times when Tammy gave the ball away cheaply but the idea that Giroud doesn't do that quite a bit too is a bit of a myth in itself. I can completely see why Lampard started Tammy who is far more mobile and energetic and I do feel in the first half the move was justified because we put the United defence under quite a bit of pressure and had some good joy winning the ball back high up the pitch and Tammy was part of that pressure.

The only other options for Lampard with the squad at his disposal today was to play Tomori for Zouma which would have meant being even more inexperienced and playing Kante from the start. However Kante likely wouldn't have played the full 90 minutes and we were well in the game until we conceded the second in the 64th minute anyway and whilst they clearly posed a threat on the counter they had been contained pretty well up to that point.

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34 minutes ago, Jason said:

Being established doesn't mean being better. 

On paper, yes but let's not forget that Mourinho hasn't been able to set his teams properly in big games for years now and if you remember with Conte, he set us up to lose only 1-0 at Man City last year and set us not to even bothered tackle them at all. 

The team's structure is definitely not solid yet but it's kinda hard to say for certain that we should have been more pragmatic today. If it was City, Liverpool or Spurs, then I would definitely say we need to be pragmatic but this isn't a great United side. Took the game to them and created a number of chances, had Abraham gotten at the end of that Azpi cross, had we not hit the woodwork in the first half, the game could have been completely different. The individual mistakes made matters worse and United's 2nd and 4th goals probably shouldn't have been counted as well - the former for a foul and the latter was a head injury treatment on Zouma (two United players were apparently trying to stop play).

Mourinho got hammered badly often enough in his career even when setting up for a 0-0.  I dont think he would have done better today with the players on offer. Lets not forget we have our 3 best players missing and another 2 possible starters out as well. 

Conte maybe but then again a coach can not plan for individual mistakes. I agree we should not have been as open in midfield which Lamps is partly to blame for. But then again he had 0 defensive midfielders available today. How are you gonna park the bus without a number 6? 

Not scoring at all with all the effort we out in however is a worry. Even apart from the woodwork with all those shots you should score at least once.

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18 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

If Mount didn't play today, then Pulisic would have so the idea of established starters doesn't really hold up for that particular example because both are young and relatively inexperienced.

The only other 'established starters' I can assume is Alonso and Giroud (taking the assumption that Kante isn't fully fit). For me, Emerson was one of the better players and I'm more than happy if he establishes himself first choice this season and the Tammy/Giroud debate is a difficult one. There were times when Tammy gave the ball away cheaply but the idea that Giroud doesn't do that quite a bit too is a bit of a myth in itself. I can completely see why Lampard started Tammy who is far more mobile and energetic and I do feel in the first half the move was justified because we put the United defence under quite a bit of pressure and had some good joy winning the ball back high up the pitch and Tammy was part of that pressure.

The only other options for Lampard with the squad at his disposal today was to play Tomori for Zouma which would have meant being even more inexperienced and playing Kante from the start. However Kante likely wouldn't have played the full 90 minutes and we were well in the game until we conceded the second in the 64th minute anyway and whilst they clearly posed a threat on the counter they had been contained pretty well up to that point.

Think pulisic has quite a bit more experience at top level than mount, as much as I like him.

kante is a tough one: if he were sitting on the bench, I think he should have started otherwise he should not be sitting there. If he can’t play 90, sub him.

regarding giroud and Tammy,’sorry that’s not debatable. They belong in completely different footballing tiers. Giroud was, along with hazard, our best player in the last cup win. So, starting Tammy made no sense to me. And his poor performance was very predictable.

no need to start a striker in this game either. Play Pedro there for ex.

for me playing 2 possession cms for this game was also questionable. Stick Alonso there, or literally anyone else even yoko guy. Populate the middle to avoid the predictable thrashing. 

Think folks here were underestimating United. They have very dangerous attackers and miss who can punish you for every mistake, as they did.

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2 minutes ago, Robchels said:

Think pulisic has quite a bit more experience at top level than mount, as much as I like him.

kante is a tough one: if he were sitting on the bench, I think he should have started otherwise he should not be sitting there. If he can’t play 90, sub him.

regarding giroud and Tammy,’sorry that’s not debatable. They belong in completely different footballing tiers. Giroud was, along with hazard, our best player in the last cup win. So, starting Tammy made no sense to me. And his poor performance was very predictable.

for me playing 2 possession cms for this game was also questionable. Stick Alonso there, or literally anyone else even yoko guy. Populate the middle to avoid the predictable thrashing. 

Think folks here were underestimating United. They have very dangerous attackers and miss who can punish you for every mistake, as they did.

Giroud really did not perform that wel in PL. He most of the time played good in EL and the competition we faced in EL was not that great.

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1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

Giroud really did not perform that wel in PL. He most of the time played good in EL and the competition we faced in EL was not that great.

And Tammy played well in the PL when?

same for mount... and the. He subs Ross Barkley who does have a lot of pl experience.

sorry I honestly think Lampard fucked up big time.

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23 minutes ago, Robchels said:

Think pulisic has quite a bit more experience at top level than mount, as much as I like him.

kante is a tough one: if he were sitting on the bench, I think he should have started otherwise he should not be sitting there. If he can’t play 90, sub him.

regarding giroud and Tammy,’sorry that’s not debatable. They belong in completely different footballing tiers. Giroud was, along with hazard, our best player in the last cup win. So, starting Tammy made no sense to me. And his poor performance was very predictable.

for me playing 2 possession cms for this game was also questionable. Stick Alonso there, or literally anyone else even yoko guy. Populate the middle to avoid the predictable thrashing. 

Think folks here were underrated United. They have very dangerous attackers and miss who can punish you for every mistake, as they did.

Pulisic is still a 20 year old though with no experience of English football.

The Giroud/Tammy argument is very debatable because I think it is now obvious already that Lampard wants his team to press high and first half we got a lot of joy winning the ball in good areas. Would this have been the case with a much less mobile striker pressing from the front?

And are you seriously suggesting we should have played Alonso centre midfield or Bakayoko instead of Kovacic and/or Jorginho?!

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Just now, Robchels said:

And Tammy played well in the PL when?

same for mount... and the. He subs Ross Barkley who does have a lot of pl experience.

sorry I honestly think Lampard fucked up big time.

What did Barkley offer in that match? What did Barkley offer las season? Barkley offered us nothing last season and was the reason why Sarri at the beginning struggled to win. Then, RLC came along and he made us better in the offensive point of view.

You could argue that Barkley played a very good pre season, but Mount did that too and has way better gas tank than Barkley. Barkley usually gets tired after 60-70 minutes and Sarri for instance usually subbed him off at that time.

Tammy has a lot more to offer than Giroud. Tammy is faster, can dribble better, is better at pressing and is as tall as Giroud. Giroud has the better hold up play, but that alone should not make him a starter. When Lamps brought Giroud in the second half, Giroud did nothing that makes me think that he should be a starter. Abraham nearly scored one goal and had bad luck. His hold up play iin the first half was good. Of course it was bad in the second half, but which of our players played good in the second half? Obviosly, Tammy is not perfect, but he will improve. Giroud will only get worse.

At the end of the day it is not about experience. It is about how good you are. Azpi for instance has all the experience in the world. Still plays crap since last season. I remember Ivanovic few years ago. He was maybe the worst right back in the history of the PL, even though he had all the experience in the world. There was a time when Ivanovic was rock solid and one of the best defensive right  backs in the world.

You sound like Mourinho with your experience talk. KDB had no experience and Mou played Lamps instead of a talented KDB and believe me, a lot of people knew that Mou made the wrong decision. I watched KDB a little bit in Bremen and his pre season and knew he was the real deal. Mou´s philosophy was experience and we payed our price for that.

 

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13 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

What did Barkley offer in that match? What did Barkley offer las season? Barkley offered us nothing last season and was the reason why Sarri at the beginning struggled to win. Then, RLC came along and he made us better in the offensive point of view.

You could argue that Barkley played a very good pre season, but Mount did that too and has way better gas tank than Barkley. Barkley usually gets tired after 60-70 minutes and Sarri for instance usually subbed him off at that time.

Tammy has a lot more to offer than Giroud. Tammy is faster, can dribble better, is better at pressing and is as tall as Giroud. Giroud has the better hold up play, but that alone should not make him a starter. When Lamps brought Giroud in the second half, Giroud did nothing that makes me think that he should be a starter. Abraham nearly scored one goal and had bad luck. His hold up play iin the first half was good. Of course it was bad in the second half, but which of our players played good in the second half? Obviosly, Tammy is not perfect, but he will improve. Giroud will only get worse.

At the end of the day it is not about experience. It is about how good you are. Azpi for instance has all the experience in the world. Still plays crap since last season. I remember Ivanovic few years ago. He was maybe the worst right back in the history of the PL, even though he had all the experience in the world. There was a time when Ivanovic was rock solid and one of the best defensive right  backs in the world.

You sound like Mourinho with your experience talk. KDB had no experience and Mou played Lamps instead of a talented KDB and believe me, a lot of people knew that Mou made the wrong decision. I watched KDB a little bit in Bremen and his pre season and knew he was the real deal. Mou´s philosophy was experience and we payed our price for that.

 

We have a fundamental diagreement regarding Tammy. I think he’s terrible awful footballer, so we have to agree to disagree.

Heh I don’t much care how I sound.  Listening to folks here and it seems we did not get thrashed by a shitty united side. There are games and games. Want to give Tammy minutes do it in a different match. Same for mount. This match was to fuck them up and make life difficult for them.

barkley (who was playing left wing strangely enough) scored many goals in the pl which is more than both mount and Tammy ever did. 

Experience matters! And it is well paid for. It reflects prices of players who are already doing well in the PL vs coming from weaker leagues.

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Barkley was the much better player in preseason. Because he *is* the better player. At least for the foreseeable future. His assists and goals throughout preseason were of a higher quality than mounts and against better teams.

Judging Ross on Saturday is silly because he was shoehorned into a position that doesn't suit him. They should both be judged on how they play as a number 10.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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I really hope he's as mentally strong as people say he is because Mourinho's made him an easy target for the media and opposition fans now.

Got to love the logic though, constantly slated for playing it safe in these games now slated for doing the total opposite.

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20 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I really hope he's as mentally strong as people say he is because Mourinho's made him an easy target for the media and opposition fans now.

Got to love the logic though, constantly slated for playing it safe in these games now slated for doing the total opposite.

Honestly, who gives a damn when Mourinho talks about youth and criticizes young players? It's beyond ironic when he starts talking about them. 

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10 minutes ago, Jason said:

Honestly, who gives a damn when Mourinho talks about youth and criticizes young players? It's beyond ironic when he starts talking about them. 

He knows how to play the media. Again he said something that was sure to create headlines

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It baffles me why Mount played instead of Pulisic and even more baffling how a majority here claim Pulisic is just as inexperienced - is the Championship better than Bundesliga? Pulisic has plenty of minutes in a top 4 league where he dominated at points. Besides Kante he is probably our best player.

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On 12/08/2019 at 2:14 PM, Supermonkey92 said:

Barkley was the much better player in preseason. Because he *is* the better player. At least for the foreseeable future. His assists and goals throughout preseason were of a higher quality than mounts and against better teams.

Judging Ross on Saturday is silly because he was shoehorned into a position that doesn't suit him. They should both be judged on how they play as a number 10.

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I thought he was easily the best player on the midfield. 

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2 hours ago, DANILA said:

It baffles me why Mount played instead of Pulisic and even more baffling how a majority here claim Pulisic is just as inexperienced - is the Championship better than Bundesliga? Pulisic has plenty of minutes in a top 4 league where he dominated at points. Besides Kante he is probably our best player.

Pulisic

128 topflight (including Europe and 8 German cup games) games (including Sunday)

some were monsters

Mount

1 topflight,major league game (Sunday)

39 in the semi-farmer league Eredivisie/Dutch cup ties, although he did have 14 goals there with Vitesse

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As Lampard said, Mount deserved to play based purely on merit, but I disagree with Sunday's team selection full stop, if I'm being honest. Lampard played four central midfielders when our system only allows for three, hence the imbalance in midfield that United did eventually exploit. 

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6 hours ago, BlueLion. said:

As Lampard said, Mount deserved to play based purely on merit, but I disagree with Sunday's team selection full stop, if I'm being honest. Lampard played four central midfielders when our system only allows for three, hence the imbalance in midfield that United did eventually exploit. 

I am not sure it has anything to do with playing Barkley and Mount together. 

We can play Puli over Barkley and our defense won't get better 

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