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iceboy

Alex Sandro

Started by iceboy,

2,047 posts in this topic
10 minutes ago, Chelsea Legend 11 said:

That's not a sustainable model. 

While things do take a while to get done I have no problem with the club not being held for ransom. We have to lose this image that as soon as Chelsea come the price becomes treble the valuation.

But in that case we will just fall of the cliff. Either the club we are buying from will hold us for ransom or they will sell to someone who will pay. 

They wont drop the price just because we said we wont pay. Neither will any other club sell to us for less money, because regardless of how we buy, our public picture is already clear that we have plenty of money.

If you think we can get someone like Lukaku or Morata or Sandro or Mendy cheaper than other clubs just because unlike them we are not willing to pay, you are wrong. They will sell to highest bidder. Unless like I said its about one of those 10% of players that is not just about money and we can pursue with good project, coach etc. 

Sadly the market has gone crazy. In the past, when good, maybe not their wanted offer came to smaller club, they accepted it. Today, they wont because they know they will sooner or later get better offer, offer they demanded for their player. Smaller clubs have become bit cocky about their best players and kudos to them. 

I agree when we talk about players in general, we shouldnt just pay the cash. Lets say we miss on option A, we shouldnt pay twice over for the option B just because we need someone. But when we realy want option A, when its the perfect choice, then I say pay the damn fee and be done with it. 

If Monaco wants 50m for Bakayoko and we see Tollisso available for 35m brilliant. But if we target Sandro and dont want to pay 50, when we paid 30m! for Baba few years ago, I dont see what is the board thinking.

In past years we bought Luis, Baba and Alonso, and while it can be considered all right alternative, alot of money went into these players (Luis fee was returned, but Baba and Alonso cost 50m combined). And we are still on market for top LB. Because we didnt want to pay alot for that one top LB when we could. Same is with RW. Pedro and Willian are alright, but Salah and Cuadrado were flops. Wouldnt be better if we just paid the fee for whoever quality player we were linked with? 

Yes we saved money and we actualy managed to win two titles in past 3 years which is not bad. But its clear as day we still need improvement in both areas and we are likely need to pay alot of money one day to improve. 

Sure Azpi, Eden, Kante, Tibo were absolutely brilliant deals. But we were in total rebuild back then. Now we have decently established team with 2-4 top players missing, I think we should invest bit more to complete it and not haggle on every deal and get alternatives in the end.

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11 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

But in that case we will just fall of the cliff. Either the club we are buying from will hold us for ransom or they will sell to someone who will pay. 

They wont drop the price just because we said we wont pay. Neither will any other club sell to us for less money, because regardless of how we buy, our public picture is already clear that we have plenty of money.

If you think we can get someone like Lukaku or Morata or Sandro or Mendy cheaper than other clubs just because unlike them we are not willing to pay, you are wrong. They will sell to highest bidder. Unless like I said its about one of those 10% of players that is not just about money and we can pursue with good project, coach etc. 

Sadly the market has gone crazy. In the past, when good, maybe not their wanted offer came to smaller club, they accepted it. Today, they wont because they know they will sooner or later get better offer, offer they demanded for their player. Smaller clubs have become bit cocky about their best players and kudos to them. 

I agree when we talk about players in general, we shouldnt just pay the cash. Lets say we miss on option A, we shouldnt pay twice over for the option B just because we need someone. But when we realy want option A, when its the perfect choice, then I say pay the damn fee and be done with it. 

If Monaco wants 50m for Bakayoko and we see Tollisso available for 35m brilliant. But if we target Sandro and dont want to pay 50, when we paid 30m! for Baba few years ago, I dont see what is the board thinking.

In past years we bought Luis, Baba and Alonso, and while it can be considered all right alternative, alot of money went into these players (Luis fee was returned, but Baba and Alonso cost 50m combined). And we are still on market for top LB. Because we didnt want to pay alot for that one top LB when we could. Same is with RW. Pedro and Willian are alright, but Salah and Cuadrado were flops. Wouldnt be better if we just paid the fee for whoever quality player we were linked with? 

Yes we saved money and we actualy managed to win two titles in past 3 years which is not bad. But its clear as day we still need improvement in both areas and we are likely need to pay alot of money one day to improve. 

Sure Azpi, Eden, Kante, Tibo were absolutely brilliant deals. But we were in total rebuild back then. Now we have decently established team with 2-4 top players missing, I think we should invest bit more to complete it and not haggle on every deal and get alternatives in the end.

Thats not true at all. Just this year Napoli tried that with Koulibaly, we ended up with the best CB in the premier league in Luiz.

There are always other targets its just about how well you read the market. In the case of Strikers you clearly have to pay a mint because nobody sells them and so few are worth their valuation, but in the case of FB/wingers the market is definitely growing. The image that always has to be prevalent is Chelsea will not be taken to the cleaners to get players, signings like Alonso, Luiz and Kante only strengthen our position.

This is sometimes true and could very well be the case with Sandro, but agents and players also have a say in this. A lot of times its the players who force moves, once its made public the player doesn't want to stay the valuation drops.

Ummm what? Are we talking Euros???? I'm pretty sure Baba's price was £14m rising to £22m if certain benchmarks are hit. That number is completely different to 50m but I also understand that Sandro is a different player. Baba was a potential buy, Sandro is a starter.

I don't know what you're talking about here, Luiz and Alonso were brilliant buys, they clearly met their valuation and in some ways exceeded it. This is exactly the types of deals we need to continue to be successful at! And yes I would love another marquee signing, someone with a big price tag and an established pedigree. This may be the summer for it too, but I stand by what I've said the club can't be held ransom to do it.

 

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1 hour ago, Chelsea Legend 11 said:

Thats not true at all. Just this year Napoli tried that with Koulibaly, we ended up with the best CB in the premier league in Luiz.

There are always other targets its just about how well you read the market. In the case of Strikers you clearly have to pay a mint because nobody sells them and so few are worth their valuation, but in the case of FB/wingers the market is definitely growing. The image that always has to be prevalent is Chelsea will not be taken to the cleaners to get players, signings like Alonso, Luiz and Kante only strengthen our position.

This is sometimes true and could very well be the case with Sandro, but agents and players also have a say in this. A lot of times its the players who force moves, once its made public the player doesn't want to stay the valuation drops.

Ummm what? Are we talking Euros???? I'm pretty sure Baba's price was £14m rising to £22m if certain benchmarks are hit. That number is completely different to 50m but I also understand that Sandro is a different player. Baba was a potential buy, Sandro is a starter.

I don't know what you're talking about here, Luiz and Alonso were brilliant buys, they clearly met their valuation and in some ways exceeded it. This is exactly the types of deals we need to continue to be successful at! And yes I would love another marquee signing, someone with a big price tag and an established pedigree. This may be the summer for it too, but I stand by what I've said the club can't be held ransom to do it.

 

I like Luiz alot, he is a leader and character and he had brilliant season, but we had to switch formation and who knows how is he going to play next year. He had awesome season as sweeper and made few mistakes, but he will need another top season to be considered reliable CB IMO. 

But I dont consider him as perfect signing, with him, we cant play 4 at the back and if you look at whole situation, we have aging and sometimes unreliable Cahill, Luiz, and Christensen, Ake, Zouma; three youngsters. Neither screams reliable top CB to me, take from that what you will, but dont let PL title hide that our defense is far from perfect and to me it makes sense why Conte wants to add another CB. 

And he cost 30m, thats hardly a good example when he was still quite expensive and back then known as unreliable. 

Same with Alonso; very very good season, better than expected, but yet again we are still looking for improvements. 

Both Luiz and Alonso are short gap solutions because we didnt pay the price for top players who could be starters for many years to come.

Now nobody expected Luiz will be this good, and nobody knows how would Koulibaly or Laporte or whoever else we were linked with, but its clear as day we will need some improvement in this are still.

Koulibaly I dont know, maybe he will come good or not, he had poor season, but indeed with Stones we avoided alot of trouble by not paying that fee. However I said then he is not worth that and in fact he never was, while for example Sandro is a proven player, well worth his fee even if its a high one and if we want top LB, we pay the price, simple as that.

Now dont get me wrong, I think Luiz and Alonso could do it for another season at Chelsea,

uccess would be that we dont bow to Juve demands for Sandro, instead sign someone twice cheaper and he turns to be brilliant player. However Alonso is not that. He is good player, and just maybe he can make it as starter once we complete our team, but honestly he is miles away from players like Sandro or Alaba. We paid less but for lesser player and if media knows anything for the same reason we plan on getting another top LB.

I dont want spending like City or United does on single player costing shitload of cash, because good players alone dont generate good results, it takes chemistry. But if we are interested in particular player, then we get him. If Juve wants 50 for Sandro, thats alright, he is proven player and we need good LB for several years.

For example, we bought Ivanovic for smaller fee and he turned into world class player here. But we also bought Carvalho for big fee back then because we wanted the man. Would it be better to refuse Porto and chase cheaper alternatives? Who knows, he became best possible CB we could have at that time. If we were buying him this year, we would probably low ball and settle for someone else.

About Baba, then I must be misinformed, I always thought he cost in region of 25m euros, which was alot again for someone unproven.

The club easily pays alot for talented unproven players, but always hardballing with established ones, perhaps it has to do with resale value?

I completely agree with you sometimes we shouldnt bow to teams if the fees go crazy, but when player is top level and we need to strenghten that area, I have nothing against spending. 

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3 hours ago, ulsterchelsea said:

Panic all over the shop cause Chels ain't spent anything yet and it's already June 8th... window dont open till tomorrow but whatever! Do people really think we won't spend big here? Likelihood is all deals are being worked on but won't be announced until nike deal for marketing purposes. Seriously some of you need to come away from the twitter/paper transfer rumour pages and stop hitting f5 every 2 seconds. Loads of time yet. 

Am on a phone what does f5 do lol 

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1 minute ago, BluesMadLad said:

Am on a phone what does f5 do lol 

Refresh

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2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

I like Luiz alot, he is a leader and character and he had brilliant season, but we had to switch formation and who knows how is he going to play next year. He had awesome season as sweeper and made few mistakes, but he will need another top season to be considered reliable CB IMO. 

This is not really the point is it? Luiz met and exceeded his valuation based on his play to this point, anything that happens subsequent to that is debatable for another day. Furthermore, anyone on the market regardless of their name will be graded on their most recent body of work first and history second.

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But I dont consider him as perfect signing, with him, we cant play 4 at the back and if you look at whole situation, we have aging and sometimes unreliable Cahill, Luiz, and Christensen, Ake, Zouma; three youngsters. Neither screams reliable top CB to me, take from that what you will, but dont let PL title hide that our defense is far from perfect and to me it makes sense why Conte wants to add another CB.

I have no idea why you're talking about our defenders here. The nature of the discussion to this point has been about whether or not we should just pay whatever fee necessary to secure a player's signature. Nowhere have I mentioned we are set defensively because we bought Luiz. I merely said we weren't gonna be held for ransom for Koulibaly and by sticking to our guns we ended up with this season's best CB. Going forward we may need to look at that position because the gap between the starters and the ones next in line great. Ake, Christensen and Zouma need a buffer in between them... Someone around the age of 26-27.

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And he cost 30m, thats hardly a good example when he was still quite expensive and back then known as unreliable. 

You are missing the point entirely. We refused to pay the extortionist prices Napoli wanted for Koulibaly, for half his reported transfer fee we ended up with the best defender in the Prem this year. 

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Same with Alonso; very very good season, better than expected, but yet again we are still looking for improvements.

Improvements or reinforcements? I'd say that's still up in the air. Having said that you're still missing the point, our secondary targets did a fantastic job making us less desperate to pay over the odds for a better player.

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Both Luiz and Alonso are short gap solutions because we didnt pay the price for top players who could be starters for many years to come.

Yes and because they were largely successes it makes our pursuit of better talent less arduous, we aren't in a position now where we go to a potential seller and say "name your price" 

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Now nobody expected Luiz will be this good, and nobody knows how would Koulibaly or Laporte or whoever else we were linked with, but its clear as day we will need some improvement in this are still

Whether or not we knew or not is irrelevant, he WAS that good and as I've been saying proved to be more valuable than his outlay. And with regards to Laporte or K2 we don't need to know how they would fit because we performed just fine without them. They could've come here and flopped hard but its hard to imagine that even if they were successful that their seasons would surpass the one Luiz just had.

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Koulibaly I dont know, maybe he will come good or not, he had poor season, but indeed with Stones we avoided alot of trouble by not paying that fee. However I said then he is not worth that and in fact he never was, while for example Sandro is a proven player, well worth his fee even if its a high one and if we want top LB, we pay the price, simple as that.

We don't have a bottomless pit of money, with that in mind we can't just issue blank cheques. I want Sandro! I really do! But I can understand if the club have set limits to how high they will go for him. We have other needs and other targets and its not like every need has to be addressed in this particular window, especially given the fact we've proven to be successful with secondary targets.

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Success would be that we dont bow to Juve demands for Sandro, instead sign someone twice cheaper and he turns to be brilliant player. However Alonso is not that. He is good player, and just maybe he can make it as starter once we complete our team, but honestly he is miles away from players like Sandro or Alaba. We paid less but for lesser player and if media knows anything for the same reason we plan on getting another top LB.

Yes Alonso may not be that but who's to say Conti isn't? Just a random name.

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I dont want spending like City or United does on single player costing shitload of cash, because good players alone dont generate good results, it takes chemistry. But if we are interested in particular player, then we get him. If Juve wants 50 for Sandro, thats alright, he is proven player and we need good LB for several years.

You keep on ignoring one important caveat to this all, we should not be held for ransom! Its not a sustainable business model to just pay whatever the seller wants unless of course it fits into your budget.

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For example, we bought Ivanovic for smaller fee and he turned into world class player here. But we also bought Carvalho for big fee back then because we wanted the man. Would it be better to refuse Porto and chase cheaper alternatives? Who knows, he became best possible CB we could have at that time. If we were buying him this year, we would probably low ball and settle for someone else.

Completely different landscape to the one we tread on now, you can't ignore this. 

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The club easily pays alot for talented unproven players, but always hardballing with established ones, perhaps it has to do with resale value?

No idea what it has to do with, maybe we can't go big in the market like we used to?

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I completely agree with you sometimes we shouldnt bow to teams if the fees go crazy, but when player is top level and we need to strenghten that area, I have nothing against spending. 

I have no problem with spending big on the right target in a restrictive market, what I don't like is bending over for targets when the market shows there maybe be cheaper alternatives. Strikers, I'd bend over for... CB's, I'd bend over for... Wingers and fullbacks, I wouldn't because there is loads of good talent there... I would bend over for Sandro however.

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About Kalidou Koulibaly:

"They offered to me £30, 35, 40, 45, 50 [million]," De Laurentiis told Sky Sports News HQ. "Last moment, two days before the closing of the market, I hear £58 [million] - something like that."

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/10606483/chelsea-offered-up-to-58m-for-kalidou-koulibaly-says-napolis-aurelio-de-laurentiis

That's from last year. I suppose they were just afraid after Higuain sale.

At the end of the day we offered them a lot of money but they refused and opened the door for season 2017/18 if Conte still wants him.

It's going to be very hard to buy someone for less after such a big numbers we were offering last year.

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2 hours ago, Chelsea Legend 11 said:

 

I have no problem with spending big on the right target in a restrictive market, what I don't like is bending over for targets when the market shows there maybe be cheaper alternatives. Strikers, I'd bend over for... CB's, I'd bend over for... Wingers and fullbacks, I wouldn't because there is loads of good talent there... I would bend over for Sandro however.

Well if thats the case, then I dont know why we are even discussing this. I thought you believe we shouldnt pay over the odds for any player where the selling club would want ridiculous money.

Going by that, we both agree we should not bend to selling clubs for ridiculous fees, however when players are of exceptional quality, we should pay the price, like I mentioned in the begining :)

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4 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Well if thats the case, then I dont know why we are even discussing this. I thought you believe we shouldnt pay over the odds for any player where the selling club would want ridiculous money.

Going by that, we both agree we should not bend to selling clubs for ridiculous fees, however when players are of exceptional quality, we should pay the price, like I mentioned in the begining :)

I stand by that, the club still have to evaluate the market to see if there is an option that is cheaper who addresses the same needs.

What I said is it depends on the market, strikers, CB's are bend over worthy in my opinion. Wingers, FB's not so much... Sandro happens to be a WB and I believe there is loads of talent in this position so the club shouldn't have to pay over the odds. I just want them to because I think Sandro is exquisite, they may see better value in the market though

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I don't even know why we are wasting our time on Sandro, Juve are not selling him in a  million years.

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If true and even if the bids are turned down, at least we know the club are serious about strengthening in a big way at the fullback positions. Surely someone of quality will be signed there.

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Not going to happen unless we offer that money 60 million plus a player like Matic/Costa etc. 

Otherwise another Stones saga. 

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1 hour ago, Fernando said:

Not going to happen unless we offer that money 60 million plus a player like Matic/Costa etc. 

Otherwise another Stones saga. 

Trades don't happen in real life.

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1 hour ago, Unionjack said:

Just give them the £58 we already offered or do some Matic deal.

If we can pull off this transfer, it will justify getting Bakayoko (another defensive midfielder beside kante) instead of a creative CM. 

Conte plans to be solid in midfield, win tackles and then create through the wings with better quality wingbacks like Sandro. Especially with lukaku upfront to eat up crosses instead of Costa who hates jumping. 

My only problem is why we are not going for Mendy instead, who we can secure faster and cheaper. 

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Well this target is even more unbelievable than Sanchez. But we should give them Matic and ask for Sandro. Anyone know any good LO for sale?

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