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Fulham Broadway

The Mourinho Thread

Started by Fulham Broadway,

38,424 posts in this topic

i'll leave this here. Ake has played a fair bit for Chelsea since Benitez played him in the Europa League in 2012. Zouma was a regular at St Ettienne. So those two are trusted and I think they are more or less squad players than academy youngsters.

I'm talking about introducing Academy products like Baker RLC Boga in the earlier rounds of the League Cup - and the Sporting Lisbon game. So far only Christensen has got the chance. I credit Mourinho for going with Christensen against Shrewsbury and hope to see more of the same.

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Managing a club is like managing a business: you set major goals and after that you have secondary, tertiary goals etc.

For the club, winning trophies are major goals and we should complete as many sub targets as possible to support that. Integrating/giving minutes to youth players belongs to secondary/tertiary goals and should only be completed when the situation allows it.

We need to win trophies because we are a big club, and Mou needs to win trophies to remain at Chelsea (we all know Abramovic), losing Mourinho would derail the whole project and we would have to start all over again which is bad for the stability of the club.

At the start of the season the squad was formed (including some youngsters), and for that reason the squad players are above the U21 players unless you've situations like KDB (pushing to leave in Jan). Keeping the squad happy and (match) fit is one of the most important and difficult sub-targets you should accomplish to support your major goal: winning trophies.

Mou used the Sporting game to complete sub-targets to support his main goal: winning trophies:

- Giving Diego a game instead of Solanke, because Diego was desperately looking to score again.

- Giving time to Salah, Ramires Mikel and Schurrle to let them be as fit as possible because we will need them in the busy Christmas-January period.

- Mou gave RLC his debut because the situation allowed it, we could rest key players (Wil, Hazard, Courtois, JT) by playing him and give the kid a fantastic experience.

(and probably promote the club a little bit)

For the Derby game, Mou again looked at the situation:

Would it be more profitable for the season and the major goal (winning trophies) to give Boga, Baker, RLC game time who won't contribute to the rest of the season, or give game time to important squad players to prepare them for the busy Christmas-January Period? Easy decision.

For the major goal (winning trophies): We needed to play a strong side against Derby, as that has the biggest chance of going through the next round. And after this we should complete some sub targets which supports this major goal in the long term.

sub targets:

- Ramires needed match fitness for the coming period, so Mou played him in the final part of the game instead of randomly playing a youth player.

- Schurrle was back from illness and we need him in top top condition for the Christmas period, so that's why he played instead of a youth player.

- Playing Mikel with Matic in the pivot and Cesc at 10, to create understanding for the rest of the season, and test this set up as Mou will probably play something like this in big games.

- Resting key players. (Iva, Oscar, Cahill)

Besides this, Mou actually has already integrated two young players in the squad this season: Ake and Zouma, both played more than Salah. So I'm more than fine with that. Christensen, Solanke and RLC also made their debuts. You can't just play youth players just to play them, the situation has to allow it and it has to be profitable for your major goals during the season.

The thing about businesses is that most companies just think about the short term results,while they completely ignore the long term consequences of their actions.If we really want to compete with the big clubs,we need to have a good youth system but a good youth system means nothing if we just ignore them.We do not have a big stadium,which gives us more money.We do not sell the most jerseys in PL.It is always United.It would be so great if we could produce big talents like other clubs and give them their chance to shine because that much more beneficial for the club because the club does not have to buy a player for 50 million pounds instead.Why did we buy Salah?Did we buy Salah for 5 games ?Really?10 millions for 5 games in a season?Was Boga not enough?

It is not that hard to just rest Matic one game more and give RLC a chance instead.If Matic gets an injury,we are fucked.

After one or two years,Terry will not be in the starting line up and we will not have one former academy player in our starting line up because we do not give our talents a chance.In my opinion,a starting line up without a former academy player is just pathetic display,sorry.It is ridiculous.

We will have no former academy player in our starting line up,if we will go this path we are going right now.That is something that most people criticize about Chelsea.They say that there is a lack of identification in our club,which is in some ways true.

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Jose Mourinho surpassed the 400-point mark as a Premier League manager last weekend and in doing so became the quickest to reach this tally (174 games - 17 quicker than Sir Alex Ferguson).

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Jose Mourinho surpassed the 400-point mark as a Premier League manager last weekend and in doing so became the quickest to reach this tally (174 games - 17 quicker than Sir Alex Ferguson).

BUT mou has a better squad.

LDN Blue likes this

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What I meant to say is that Zouma shouldn't be treated as an academy product. Aké is just about an academy product for me but it wasn't Jose that gave him his first break here. I consider Nathan and Zouma as squad players already - sure they need the further development and stuff but they were already pretty much part of the first team - Nathan when Mourinho came here, Zouma because he was bought for the squad - even though he is a young player, that was clear for me from the start. Kurt wasn't bought for the academy or the reserves.

I agree with you though, the discussion does seem to be getting a bit tedious now. I won't really change my mind on the lack of youth integration so far this season and I know some others won't change their opinions either, but both sides in my opinion have valid arguments.

but normally the argument is that Mourinho doesn't develop players. I read this here many times to know most of the people 'against him' in this discussion feel like that. Many of them wrote it with their own fingers.

I think the way he's handling Zouma is brilliant - Strike agreed with me, don't know if for real or if he was being sarcastic (never know with written communication).

I understand now better what you meant - which is a relief - because I was like, 'this can't have been written by Thomas, just can't'.

So let's call him - and Aké - first team members. Still Mourinho was giving enough chances for Aké earlier the season (am I confused or he even played in the league? Or was it UCL?) and every chance he has to give a rest to either Terry or Cahill, he's been deploying Zouma. I think that's developing both players and at the end of the day, that's what matters right? That the young players (in age and in development) receive chances and are developed. Last season van Ginkel was very unlucky, I reckon he would have received even more chances than Zouma and Aké, although he's not that young anymore.

I don't know why Salah himself hasn't been receiving a lot of chances and I even agree with you - and others - that I'd rather have one of the kids instead of him in the first team, but not Boga. I think some of the kids have been working hard for longer and I know pecking order shouldn't consider only this, but you guys maybe have never managed a team of people (I have for years). Sometimes you have to base your decisions based on what preserves the good environment. I'm very excited about Boga, VERY, but maybe it wasn't his turn this season yet ahead of others.

Again, I understand where you guys are coming from, I just don't get the rush and the idea that José will never give them a proper chance. I think it's too early to have this predicament. The kids have time (most of them are 18 and 19) and Mourinho has time too.

I deeply disagree with the argument some around here have that every season is crucial. This season the first team and Mourinho have a lot of pressure because neither have won anything in a long time. Do you think Arsenal have more pressure on them to win this year than last after 8 years without wining any title? The pressure to retain isn't the same as the pressure to break a trophyless period. Actually, many teams have hangovers after they win an important title. Until the next champion is crowded, they're still the champions in the following season. So yeah, I feel like this team (the first team) needs a lot of work in their attitude, they should be played the most possible (but also avoid exhaustion) because if the first team isn't ready, how can it have youngsters integrated? I'm not saying Ruben would have compromised against Sporting. He doesn't even play in a position he would have compromised, I just meant the first team players NEEDED to win that match convincingly. Mourinho needs to start recovering Schurrle's form because he's very useful for us and we are an injury away from having an AM problem if he isn't fit. If we move Cesc to #10 and Oscar or Willian to the wing, we create a problem in our pivot and we all saw how much we lacked wherever Mikel played for us. Bad timing, which sucks for the kids, but the Sporting match was something the first team players needed.

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Judge him by the end of this season

promoting and developing youth in an ongoing process that take a while, by the end of the season it won't be enough. If he stays 3, 4, 5 years, we'll have a better idea of how he handled it. I'm not saying he couldn't have handled better in those two seasons he's been here - he could - but I think the judge is out for him way too early.

He brought them to the first team now, to be tutored by him, so, I think next season is when we should look at him and ask 'now that they've been under your wing for one entire season, how do you plan to use them?'

I also feel like he has his hands full with our first team. Some of those guys just need to develop a winning spirit, a soul of a warrior, and stop bottling.

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but normally the argument is that Mourinho doesn't develop players. I read this here many times to know most of the people 'against him' in this discussion feel like that. Many of them wrote it with their own fingers.

I think the way he's handling Zouma is brilliant - Strike agreed with me, don't know if for real or if he was being sarcastic (never know with written communication).

I understand now better what you meant - which is a relief - because I was like, 'this can't have been written by Thomas, just can't'.

So let's call him - and Aké - first team members. Still Mourinho was giving enough chances for Aké earlier the season (am I confused or he even played in the league? Or was it UCL?) and every chance he has to give a rest to either Terry or Cahill, he's been deploying Zouma. I think that's developing both players and at the end of the day, that's what matters right? That the young players (in age and in development) receive chances and are developed. Last season van Ginkel was very unlucky, I reckon he would have received even more chances than Zouma and Aké, although he's not that young anymore.

I don't know why Salah himself hasn't been receiving a lot of chances and I even agree with you - and others - that I'd rather have one of the kids instead of him in the first team, but not Boga. I think some of the kids have been working hard for longer and I know pecking order shouldn't consider only this, but you guys maybe have never managed a team of people (I have for years). Sometimes you have to base your decisions based on what preserves the good environment. I'm very excited about Boga, VERY, but maybe it wasn't his turn this season yet ahead of others.

Zouma's integration has been brilliant. No sarcasm

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Seems like we have a hard time winning if anyone from the first choice XI, doesn't play. Let alone youth players.

Adding one youth player doesn't mean you lose the abilities of the starter he's replacing. You better know that everyone around him will have one eye on the kid, which means one less eye on the match. So unless you know for sure that one eye on the match is enough to still get you the win, go right ahead, otherwise be patient.

Derby, Shrewsbury, these matches were not easy victories. You could argue the way we won these matches kind of confirmed Jose picked pretty much perfect lineups. Shrewsbury he knew exactly how many youth players he could get away with. And Derby was an incredibly tough match too, harder than several PL matches we've had so far.

It's a tough balance. Could Jose have got away with playing a youth here and there, yeah maybe but it could have also backfired.

I'm going to wait a bit before I judge Jose and how he uses the Academy. This is the first time in his career that this is even expected of him. His first stint here, at Inter and real, he wasn't hired to integrate youth, bet it wasn't even last on the list.

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promoting and developing youth in an ongoing process that take a while, by the end of the season it won't be enough. If he stays 3, 4, 5 years, we'll have a better idea of how he handled it. I'm not saying he couldn't have handled better in those two seasons he's been here - he could - but I think the judge is out for him way too early.

He brought them to the first team now, to be tutored by him, so, I think next season is when we should look at him and ask 'now that they've been under your wing for one entire season, how do you plan to use them?'

I also feel like he has his hands full with our first team. Some of those guys just need to develop a winning spirit, a soul of a warrior, and stop bottling.

Actually what I mean is that, people should trust Jose about the player selections in every match. I don't care playing old man, old looking guy, baby face player, youths, kids, whoever a long as we're winning trophies at the end of season. And then people could judge him by that time.

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Hold the door for me :)

I just don't get this obsession - we are having the best season in a long while and yet we're still not happy?

Just what does it take for some people to be fucking cheerful. It's Xmas too, unbelievable.

Not 1 Chelsea fan has disagreed that we would love the youngsters to play, but we know it needs to happen when the time is right. The argument is that it's not happening quick enough?

I'm pretty sure chemistry, balance of the team, predictability etc has all been mentioned - so have nothing left to offer.

I hope Santa brings you all some Christmas cheer :)

Lmao, that's hardly a fair analysis.

If we all didn't have some opinion on such things, this forum would be a pretty boring place at times? Do we all just post about how happy we are about the season and just be jolly?

Debating issues is the whole point of this forum and it's actually going well. A lot of good posts from both sides of the argument. Your post is slightly ignorant imo.

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Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho: We won't panic if Manchester City overtake us in the title race

Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho is confident his players won’t be negatively affected should Manchester City overtake them in the title race tomorrow.

Chelsea have led the Premier League since the beginning of the season, but have seen their lead at the top cut over the defending champions from eight to three points in recent weeks.

Manchester City play Crystal Palace on Saturday lunch-time, while Chelsea face a tough trip to Stoke on Monday night.

A five-goal victory for City will see them replace Chelsea at the top before the difficult fixture at Britannia Stadium.

But when asked if that will put his side under pressure, he said: “No. We start the season with the same points so if tomorrow we have the same points as them. That’s fine.”

With Chelsea progressing into the last four of the Capital One Cup and the last 16 of the Champions League, some are tipping the club to win the quadruple.

But Mourinho added: “I go match after match and we can do quadruple on Monday, which is to win four consecutive matches.

“We have to try and if we do a few quadruples during the season we have chances to win competitions but I can’t think two competitions at the same time. It’s only the Premier League for the next few weeks. That’s the competition that matters.

“Every game is three points and important. The accumulation is not for one team – it’s for every team. Everybody is in the same circumstances. Some are lucky to have easier fixtures in this period but that’s the draw.

“For us it’s three away and one at home. Even the one at home will be a London derby against one of the best teams in the competition. Tottenham, Southampton and Stoke now are difficult for us but we are ready.”

Mourinho confirmed that striker Didier Drogba (ankle), Kurt Zouma (head) and keeper Thibaut Courtois (leg) are all fit to play.

Meanwhile, the Chelsea coach is not worried about facing Liverpool in the Capital One Cup semi-final next month.

He said: “If you want to win competitions you have to play against the best teams unless you are lucky that everyone finds a killing giant and is out of the competition. It is normal for us to play against a team with the same ambitions as we have.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-boss-jose-mourinho-we-wont-panic-if-manchester-city-overtake-us-in-the-title-race-9936039.html

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but normally the argument is that Mourinho doesn't develop players. I read this here many times to know most of the people 'against him' in this discussion feel like that. Many of them wrote it with their own fingers.

I think the way he's handling Zouma is brilliant - Strike agreed with me, don't know if for real or if he was being sarcastic (never know with written communication).

I understand now better what you meant - which is a relief - because I was like, 'this can't have been written by Thomas, just can't'.

So let's call him - and Aké - first team members. Still Mourinho was giving enough chances for Aké earlier the season (am I confused or he even played in the league? Or was it UCL?) and every chance he has to give a rest to either Terry or Cahill, he's been deploying Zouma. I think that's developing both players and at the end of the day, that's what matters right? That the young players (in age and in development) receive chances and are developed. Last season van Ginkel was very unlucky, I reckon he would have received even more chances than Zouma and Aké, although he's not that young anymore.

I don't know why Salah himself hasn't been receiving a lot of chances and I even agree with you - and others - that I'd rather have one of the kids instead of him in the first team, but not Boga. I think some of the kids have been working hard for longer and I know pecking order shouldn't consider only this, but you guys maybe have never managed a team of people (I have for years). Sometimes you have to base your decisions based on what preserves the good environment. I'm very excited about Boga, VERY, but maybe it wasn't his turn this season yet ahead of others.

Again, I understand where you guys are coming from, I just don't get the rush and the idea that José will never give them a proper chance. I think it's too early to have this predicament. The kids have time (most of them are 18 and 19) and Mourinho has time too.

I deeply disagree with the argument some around here have that every season is crucial. This season the first team and Mourinho have a lot of pressure because neither have won anything in a long time. Do you think Arsenal have more pressure on them to win this year than last after 8 years without wining any title? The pressure to retain isn't the same as the pressure to break a trophyless period. Actually, many teams have hangovers after they win an important title. Until the next champion is crowded, they're still the champions in the following season. So yeah, I feel like this team (the first team) needs a lot of work in their attitude, they should be played the most possible (but also avoid exhaustion) because if the first team isn't ready, how can it have youngsters integrated? I'm not saying Ruben would have compromised against Sporting. He doesn't even play in a position he would have compromised, I just meant the first team players NEEDED to win that match convincingly. Mourinho needs to start recovering Schurrle's form because he's very useful for us and we are an injury away from having an AM problem if he isn't fit. If we move Cesc to #10 and Oscar or Willian to the wing, we create a problem in our pivot and we all saw how much we lacked wherever Mikel played for us. Bad timing, which sucks for the kids, but the Sporting match was something the first team players needed.

Well said once again, there is a footnote to it... We have invested a lot of money and resources to the development of players like Schurrle and Salah, we need to show a return on that as well which is why pecking order is a valid reason as to why they are getting chances over our academy products. In time players like Boga and Baker will get a chance to play regular but I don't foresee that happening any time soon, it takes time and careful integration.

Jose gave Solanke a 17yr old striker a debut... You may call it a cameo but where else in the history of this club (post Roman) has that ever happened? It should be viewed as a tremendous indication for the academy that they are producing players who will one day play for a top 4/5 club in the world. I know I tagged Barbara in this but I am directing this mainly at Skipper, Lionsden, Killer218211 and Strike, since Jose has been back at the club we've seen Baker, Ake, Solanke, Van Ginkel, Zouma, Loftus-Cheek, Christensen, Kalas(not exactly young but you get my point), all get opportunities to play, many of them got debuts with him. Its not going to happen overnight but the integration will take place in the near future! The priority now is to build a foundation of winning for the youth players to aspire to and set a standard of excellence for them to emulate! Integrating youth into a team that haven't won anything is not the way to carry on a winning tradition, you win first THEN you allow the youth to follow that example.

I have no doubt that we will integrate academy players mainly because we have to! we don't have a lot of homegrown players in our first team and the ones we do have aren't exactly young. In time we will be forced to have them in the squad and as a result they will play, after that its up to them how many opportunities they get. So when Jose says he will have failed if youth players don't get into the squad its bang on! He will have failed because firstly, if we have to go into the market to buy homegrown talent in order to fill a quota we will be paying a king's ransom to get them! Also it would mean that we haven't really set up a decent bridging program for our youth to be integrated correctly into the first team. So yes Jose will have failed miserably if none of our academy products get into the team.

Many would argue that getting into the squad isn't enough, that is true but at this club our aim is still to be the best in the world so we will also have to continue to buy talent abroad. What that means is youth players will find it difficult to find regular playing time if they aren't of the ilk of the players we have purchased, that is up to them, not Jose... If they aren't good enough to play at that level then we have to look elsewhere... why is that so hard to grasp? I for one believe in time Boga, Christensen, Ake and Cheek will be good enough to play for us perhaps even Baker, but it will be up to them to take their chances.

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Lmao, that's hardly a fair analysis.

If we all didn't have some opinion on such things, this forum would be a pretty boring place at times? Do we all just post about how happy we are about the season and just be jolly?

Debating issues is the whole point of this forum and it's actually going well. A lot of good posts from both sides of the argument. Your post is slightly ignorant imo.

Yeah not my finest post on the subject - but I was getting pretty bored of repeating myself...

You say ignorant, I say bored :)

Merry Xmas :)

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