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BlueLion.

David Luiz

Started by BlueLion.,

8,522 posts in this topic
in that case, we could use the mikel + luiz partnership. We can also imagine a lot of possibilities with rambo, kdb, oscar, lampard

It's better having a lot of options than none.

Why not?? It Would please me if we find out our pivot problems can be solved with the players we have already.

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Mikel is still the best player for the pivot guys.. Luiz has been good but hes no Mikel. Mikel's positioning is much better as is his tactical awareness

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Mikel is still the best player for the pivot guys.. Luiz has been good but hes no Mikel. Mikel's positioning is much better as is his tactical awareness

Very true, mikel is the best dm. But we don't need a dm against small teams so that we can score more. Against the manutd's and physical westhams then mikel is vital.

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Luiz against Villa was collosal. Excellent performance that left me feelig rather smug after soo many on this forum said he couldnt and wouldnt ever play there. Yes it was against an awfully inexperienced Villa side but he has everything you could ask for from a top class DM.. he can pass, tackle, dribble past players, head with height, score goals and create that a little bit of magic from deep. Say no more.

Muzchap likes this

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Alright let me bust the myth that Luiz played better than Mikel at DM because quite frankly I find that laughable. Even though Luiz was playing against a weak inexperienced side that put on one of the worst performances that I've seen by a PL team, his performance was worse than any of Mikel's in the past 2-3 years:

1) He gave the ball away too cheaply at times despite not coming under pressure from the Villa midfield. He had 12 missed placed passes in the game as compared to Mikel's average of 5-6 miss placed passes per game. That is 6 extra attacks for the opposition with our defense out of position. A better opposition than Villa and there is a good probability that we would have conceded after one of those misplaced passes.

2) On the notion that Luiz is better for our attack than Mikel because Mikel only plays "unimportant" sideways passes and doesn't "move with the ball": Luiz had zero key passes and zero dribbles against Villa.

3) Luiz was dispossessed 2 times (again despite Villa not applying pressure on our midfield) which is extremely risky for a DM because suddenly the other team has the ball and we probably only have 3 or 4 players behind the ball to defend. In 22 games Mikel has played at DM this season, he was dispossessed on average 0.6 times per game.

4) Luiz's positioning was terrible. At times his "sense of adventure" led him further down the wings than Moses and Hazard (although, tbf, his positioning in the second half improved greatly) and his movement showed that he often seemed to be thinking about how to go forward rather than cover for his teammates.

5) Mikel is on average dribble past 0.7 times per match. I can't find the exact stat but I am 100% sure that Luiz was dribbled by at least 3-4 times which along with his weak positioning refutes the arguments that having Luiz at DM would make us more solid defensively.


Overall, Luiz had a good game but only for someone playing completely out of position. But if Mikel had a similar performance, he would probably have been chased by an angry mob with pitchforks!



Sources: http://www.whoscored.com/Players/15464/
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/615091/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Aston-Villa

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Alright let me bust the myth that Luiz played better than Mikel at DM because quite frankly I find that laughable. Even though Luiz was playing against a weak inexperienced side that put on one of the worst performances that I've seen by a PL team, his performance was worse than any of Mikel's in the past 2-3 years:

1) He gave the ball away too cheaply at times despite not coming under pressure from the Villa midfield. He had 12 missed placed passes in the game as compared to Mikel's average of 5-6 miss placed passes per game. That is 6 extra attacks for the opposition with our defense out of position. A better opposition than Villa and there is a good probability that we would have conceded after one of those misplaced passes.

2) On the notion that Luiz is better for our attack than Mikel because Mikel only plays "unimportant" sideways passes and doesn't "move with the ball": Luiz had zero key passes and zero dribbles against Villa.

3) Luiz was dispossessed 2 times (again despite Villa not applying pressure on our midfield) which is extremely risky for a DM because suddenly the other team has the ball and we probably only have 3 or 4 players behind the ball to defend. In 22 games Mikel has played at DM this season, he was dispossessed on average 0.6 times per game.

4) Luiz's positioning was terrible. At times his "sense of adventure" led him further down the wings than Moses and Hazard (although, tbf, his positioning in the second half improved greatly) and his movement showed that he often seemed to be thinking about how to go forward rather than cover for his teammates.

5) Mikel is on average dribble past 0.7 times per match. I can't find the exact stat but I am 100% sure that Luiz was dribbled by at least 3-4 times which along with his weak positioning refutes the arguments that having Luiz at DM would make us more solid defensively.

Overall, Luiz had a good game but only for someone playing completely out of position. But if Mikel had a similar performance, he would probably have been chased by an angry mob with pitchforks!

Sources: http://www.whoscored.com/Players/15464/

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/615091/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Aston-Villa

Mikel or Luiz?

Luiz every time!!! The guy has passion and puts himself about he fights for everything, gets the crowd going, can score, gets his team mates going... Do I need to go on?

Whilst you sit there drooling over stats and possession a war on the pitch is happening and Luiz is winning it, whilst Mikel is strolling around with his underpants on his head and 2 pencils up his nose (Blackadder joke)

Seriously, Luiz has shown Mikel for what he is, and sadly for Mikel that's a bench-warmer...

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Mikel or Luiz?

Luiz every time!!! The guy has passion and puts himself about he fights for everything, gets the crowd going, can score, gets his team mates going... Do I need to go on?

Whilst you sit there drooling over stats and possession a war on the pitch is happening and Luiz is winning it, whilst Mikel is strolling around with his underpants on his head and 2 pencils up his nose (Blackadder joke)

Seriously, Luiz has shown Mikel for what he is, and sadly for Mikel that's a bench-warmer...

LOL by that logic we might as well pick 11 people from the crowd before every match to play the match, I'm sure they'll show much more passion than any over-paid athlete!

Luiz might have the passion, but he sure doesn't have the footballing ability nor the tactical awareness to be our first choice DM.

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LOL by that logic we might as well pick 11 people from the crowd before every match to play the match, I'm sure they'll show much more passion than any over-paid athlete!

Luiz might have the passion, but he sure doesn't have the footballing ability nor the tactical awareness to be our first choice DM.

Well having been at the ground and chatting to the season ticket holders around me, they want Luiz in DM.

They want leaders, they want passion on the pitch, I agree.

You don't have to be the best technical player, sometimes just wanting it more is enough! Our CL win should have proved that :)

And I have no doubts Luiz will get better and better in this role.

I don't hate Mikel, just think he is a squad player at best...

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Well having been at the ground and chatting to the season ticket holders around me, they want Luiz in DM.

They want leaders, they want passion on the pitch, I agree.

You don't have to be the best technical player, sometimes just wanting it more is enough! Our CL win should have proved that :)

And I have no doubts Luiz will get better and better in this role.

I don't hate Mikel, just think he is a squad player at best...

While I, of course, respect your opinion (and the ones of the season ticket holders around you <_< , though I have no idea how they got into the discussion we are having) you don't seem to have too much to back it up with. While passion is not to be underestimated it always comes second best to ability; otherwise, like I jokingly suggested, a of the most passionate 11 fans would win every match.

Yes the passion for the shirt played a part of our CL triumph last season, but more important were the experience of our players and the defensive tactics that Robbie implemented that would have never had worked if our players didn't have the tactical discipline and awareness at all times - something Luiz seems to be lacking at DM.

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While I, of course, respect your opinion (and the ones of the season ticket holders around you <_< , though I have no idea how they got into the discussion we are having) you don't seem to have too much to back it up with. While passion is not to be underestimated it always comes second best to ability; otherwise, like I jokingly suggested, a of the most passionate 11 fans would win every match.

Yes the passion for the shirt played a part of our CL triumph last season, but more important were the experience of our players and the defensive tactics that Robbie implemented that would have never had worked if our players didn't have the tactical discipline and awareness at all times - something Luiz seems to be lacking at DM.

Haha I just don't have the time or inclination to 'back-up' my statements - I'm on holiday and work consumes 99.9% of my life the remaining 0.01% is everything else.

It's just my opinion, I think Luiz and Rambo or Luiz and Romeu (when fit) would offer more in that position. I just don't trust Mikel, he (to my eyes) appears lazy and lacklustre, whereas (to my eyes) Luiz is all over the pitch bossing everything.

I'm sure stats will prove me wrong, but my own opinion on stats is pretty bad :) I couldn't tell you how many stats I've killed off as Director of Development, because they were ineffective to gauge the true nature of the situation :)

Anyway, if I'm wrong I'm wrong - as long as we keep winning I'm seriously cool with looking like an uneducated moron on a forum :) :) :)

And I do respect your opinion :) I would wager 20% of your likes since I've been on this board have come from me :) - see another useless stat :P

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Haha I just don't have the time or inclination to 'back-up' my statements - I'm on holiday and work consumes 99.9% of my life the remaining 0.01% is everything else.

It's just my opinion, I think Luiz and Rambo or Luiz and Romeu (when fit) would offer more in that position. I just don't trust Mikel, he (to my eyes) appears lazy and lacklustre, whereas (to my eyes) Luiz is all over the pitch bossing everything.

I'm sure stats will prove me wrong, but my own opinion on stats is pretty bad :) I couldn't tell you how many stats I've killed off as Director of Development, because they were ineffective to gauge the true nature of the situation :)

Anyway, if I'm wrong I'm wrong - as long as we keep winning I'm seriously cool with looking like an uneducated moron on a forum :) :) :)

And I do respect your opinion :) I would wager 20% of your likes since I've been on this board have come from me :) - see another useless stat :P

Fair enough. Agree to disagree :)

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Alright let me bust the myth that Luiz played better than Mikel at DM because quite frankly I find that laughable. Even though Luiz was playing against a weak inexperienced side that put on one of the worst performances that I've seen by a PL team, his performance was worse than any of Mikel's in the past 2-3 years:

1) He gave the ball away too cheaply at times despite not coming under pressure from the Villa midfield. He had 12 missed placed passes in the game as compared to Mikel's average of 5-6 miss placed passes per game. That is 6 extra attacks for the opposition with our defense out of position. A better opposition than Villa and there is a good probability that we would have conceded after one of those misplaced passes.

2) On the notion that Luiz is better for our attack than Mikel because Mikel only plays "unimportant" sideways passes and doesn't "move with the ball": Luiz had zero key passes and zero dribbles against Villa.

3) Luiz was dispossessed 2 times (again despite Villa not applying pressure on our midfield) which is extremely risky for a DM because suddenly the other team has the ball and we probably only have 3 or 4 players behind the ball to defend. In 22 games Mikel has played at DM this season, he was dispossessed on average 0.6 times per game.

4) Luiz's positioning was terrible. At times his "sense of adventure" led him further down the wings than Moses and Hazard (although, tbf, his positioning in the second half improved greatly) and his movement showed that he often seemed to be thinking about how to go forward rather than cover for his teammates.

5) Mikel is on average dribble past 0.7 times per match. I can't find the exact stat but I am 100% sure that Luiz was dribbled by at least 3-4 times which along with his weak positioning refutes the arguments that having Luiz at DM would make us more solid defensively.

Overall, Luiz had a good game but only for someone playing completely out of position. But if Mikel had a similar performance, he would probably have been chased by an angry mob with pitchforks!

Sources: http://www.whoscored.com/Players/15464/

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/615091/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Aston-Villa

Nice stats you got there. But you forgot about other aspects of a game, like the pressure on opponents forcing mistakes, and not just statistics.

David luiz presence, constant foward passes, aggressive approach, pushes the team foward. And the opposition have to watch their backs to defend us which leaves the opponents deep in defending thinking of how to defend luiz next through ball or shot, instead of being confortable defending.

Since smaller teams don't attack much, luiz giving the ball away a little more won't have much effect. Mikel is ultra-defensive and not needed against bottom teams in my opinion. I'll rather smash the smaller teams 8-0 every day than scrape 2-0 in my opinion

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Nice stats you got there. But you forgot about other aspects of a game, like the pressure on opponents forcing mistakes, and not just statistics.

David luiz presence, constant foward passes, aggressive approach, pushes the team foward. And the opposition have to watch their backs to defend us which leaves the opponents deep in defending thinking of how to defend luiz next through ball or shot, instead of being confortable defending.

Since smaller teams don't attack much, luiz giving the ball away a little more won't have much effect. Mikel is ultra-defensive and not needed against bottom teams in my opinion. I'll rather smash the smaller teams 8-0 every day than scrape 2-0 in my opinion

He's not Pirlo or Xavi :rolleyes: Luiz attempted zero through balls against Villa and 10 long balls which he missed 5 of. That will hard split defenses or force them to raise the white flag.

On any account Luiz would not be doing his job as a DM if he attempts too many through and long balls. The main job of the DM is to keep possession and make sure that the ball moves from defense to attack without being cut out. You force the opposition to make mistakes by keeping the ball and pressure on them not by attempting difficult passes and loosing possession which would relieve all the pressure. Check Leed's goal against us to see why a player in this position should keep it simple.

And there are no "small" teams in the PL. In fact, the teams that are down in the table often counter much better than the top teams.

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Luiz might have the passion, but he sure doesn't have the footballing ability nor the tactical awareness to be our first choice DM.

He's played 3 games in that position, impressing each time and you're prepared to write him off? There's a learning curve attached to moving to a new position and he will have bad games in that position, but so far he's been mightily impressive in defence and attack. I was actually very happy to see him covering for Azpi on at least two occasions when he ventured forward.

And I'm starting to think I was very wrong about Luiz's leadership abilities. It's early days, but his personality might be something we need in midfield and it's something I think I might have underestimated.

But it's early days and he hasn't faced the kind of pressure big teams can apply. Hopefully today he'll face a sterner test than previously and we can judge him fairly. But no-one has seen enough to suggest either way whether he can play in this position long-term.

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He's not Pirlo or Xavi :rolleyes: Luiz attempted zero through balls against Villa and 10 long balls which he missed 5 of. That will hard split defenses or force them to raise the white flag.

When I mean through balls, I'm just talking about applying pressure on weaker teams to sit back and defend. Luiz is better than mikel in pressurizing opponents.

We need to act like the bigger team and pressure teams into submision. Passing the ball to the side all the time allows weak teams to get back their defensive shape and become more difficult to break down.

On any account Luiz would not be doing his job as a DM if he attempts too many through and long balls. The main job of the DM is to keep possession and make sure that the ball moves from defense to attack without being cut out. You force the opposition to make mistakes by keeping the ball and pressure on them not by attempting difficult passes and loosing possession which would relieve all the pressure.

Those through and long balls are quick ways to dissect opponent defence, luiz found hazard twice recently in one on one positions. As I said before, luiz losing the ball 2 more times than mikel in a match makes little difference against smaller teams (not the man uniteds) becos they defend in large numbers so the danger on the counter is minimal.

Mikel is needed against bigger teams who attack in larger numbers in the counter but is not necessary against bottom teams.

And there are no "small" teams in the PL. In fact, the teams that are down in the table often counter much better than the top teams.

This is not true. Westbrom, everton, manutd, arsenal, mancity and tottenham are FAR MORE DANGEROUS on the counter than qpr, reading and villa.

Mikel is not needed against teams who defend but he is needed against physical or attack minded teams...

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He's played 3 games in that position, impressing each time and you're prepared to write him off? There's a learning curve attached to moving to a new position and he will have bad games in that position, but so far he's been mightily impressive in defence and attack. I was actually very happy to see him covering for Azpi on at least two occasions when he ventured forward.

And I'm starting to think I was very wrong about Luiz's leadership abilities. It's early days, but his personality might be something we need in midfield and it's something I think I might have underestimated.

But it's early days and he hasn't faced the kind of pressure big teams can apply. Hopefully today he'll face a sterner test than previously and we can judge him fairly. But no-one has seen enough to suggest either way whether he can play in this position long-term.

It's true, we tend to rush to judgement way too quickly (it's human) but it takes a long time to get a read on a player. I'm skeptical because what makes a good and defender and what makes a good and bad defensive midfielder are pretty similar so I think over a long period with Luiz anywhere, you'd see pretty much the same thing: lots of solid play, lots of stupid decisions, occasional brilliance that makes you love him, and occasional incompetence that makes you want to yell at him. That's just who he is.

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