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West Ham 0-1 Chelsea


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30 minutes ago, different level said:

Exactly what I meant. Having to watch Werner gives you a newfound appreciation for twose two and their time here might even seem better than it was in reality.

 

39 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

Torres was great. We expected him to be the new Pele which he was n't but he was great.
Morata then back in Atletico and then in Juve is a different Morata !

All three have been somewhat shitty, simply not good enough for Chelsea. Werner has to show more next season otherwise he will be labeled a failure just as the other two.

Edited by Magic Lamps
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Outside of finishing this was a near perfect performance for a 'big' away game.

Mount MOTM for me, was dominant, hep completely neutralise Soucek, Kante a VERY close second  

Points dropped by Liverpool...be nice not to do the same!

12 minutes ago, different level said:

An expected reaction from a Werner apologist. 

lol I have no problem with people wanting to criticize Werner. It's people's right to do so and it's fair at the same time. This West Ham game was basically Werner's season in a nutshell.

What I don't get is the constant revision of Torres' and Morata's time at the club just because of Werner's struggles. I don't know if it's because of human's nature where it's easier to remember past things in a positive manner because they are already, long in the past.

Torres is easily the worst. When we bought Torres, he was done physically and mentally because of those injuries at Liverpool. His goalscoring problem is well documented but beyond that, he was genuinely awful. He contributed next to nothing, always looked miserable and tried to shy away from the penalty area or getting at the end of chances. What's more nonsense back then was we tried to make a past-it player work that it held us back for like 3 seasons!

In Morata's case, his main issue was to different Torres'. He had no injury issues, he was (still is) is a good age for a player, had (has) the right attributes for a striker but while, again, his goalscoring problem is well documented, his biggest problem was his mentality. The minute things went wrong for him, he would often just sulk on the pitch. He also often went down easily on challenges, moaned to officials about not getting decisions and I even remember that he complained a few times about not getting the support within the club. It probably also didn't help that he supposedly subsequently suffered depression during his time here.

As for Werner, we know about his goalscoring problems but at the very least, he still works hard for the team and shows the right mentality to try and turn things around, which were things that Morata and Torres did not do. I know that may not sound like much to some people and it remains to be seen whether Werner can turn his goalscoring form around for the better in the long term, but at the very least, that attitude and mindset will act as a good platform to help him turn things around. It would be far concerning if he started to just ghost around on the pitch, doing absolutely nothing (e.g. not even doing the dirty work) while having problems scoring.

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33 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

All three have been somewhat shitty, simply not good enough for Chelsea. Werner has to show more next season otherwise he will be labeled a failure just as the other two.

Maybe the perception/expectation will change somewhat if/when we bring in a new striker this summer. 

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12 minutes ago, Jason said:

Torres is easily the worst. When we bought Torres, he was done physically and mentally because of those injuries at Liverpool. His goalscoring problem is well documented but beyond that, he was genuinely awful. He contributed next to nothing, always looked miserable and tried to shy away from the penalty area or getting at the end of chances.

Hmm, stats show something interesting. I do not remember but look at this:

Torres in his first full season here 11/12: 11 goals 16 assists. (This is from Transfermarkt so they count penalties won but the same goes for Werner). 3040 minutes played.

Werner this season: 11 goals 12 assists. 3190 minutes.

When people praise Werner they always say assists, penalties won etc... But was the same narrative with Torres? Because this clearly shows that he also did good job there.

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10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Hmm, stats show something interesting. I do not remember but look at this:

Torres in his first full season here 11/12: 11 goals 16 assists. (This is from Transfermarkt so they count penalties won but the same goes for Werner). 3040 minutes played.

Werner this season: 11 goals 12 assists. 3190 minutes.

When people praise Werner they always say assists, penalties won etc... But was the same narrative with Torres? Because this clearly shows that he also did good job there.

Don't think everyone shares that same sentiment about Werner but in any case, that argument has been used in the context of Werner being in his first season in English football. That's different from Torres, who already played a few seasons in England by then and did great things for Liverpool. So, there was arguably more expectation on him than on Werner, especially when we tried make him work as the focal point for 3 seasons.

Does this mean that there shouldn't be expectations on Werner? No and I expect him to improve, do much better next season. Getting a new striker this summer would also help with the burden because I don't think Werner will be a consistent 20+ goal striker every season (and this coming from a "Werner apologist"). He can be a secondary source of goals as a wide forward, contributing at least 15 goals per season aka be someone like Son or Mane.

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2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Hmm, stats show something interesting. I do not remember but look at this:

Torres in his first full season here 11/12: 11 goals 16 assists. (This is from Transfermarkt so they count penalties won but the same goes for Werner). 3040 minutes played.

Werner this season: 11 goals 12 assists. 3190 minutes.

When people praise Werner they always say assists, penalties won etc... But was the same narrative with Torres? Because this clearly shows that he also did good job there.

Torres played up front and had players signed to try and coax form out of him, Werner has played most of the season on the wing. Werner still gets the chances to miss, Torres would often go weeks/months without a sniff of a chance because his movement was so outrageously poor.

Atleast with Werner we can utilise his pace and pressing abilities on a tactical level if all else fails, Torres didn't have one positive attribute to fall back on. Teams will still be wary of Timo's pace, defenders practically ignored Torres because they knew he carried little threat.

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57 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Torres played up front and had players signed to try and coax form out of him, Werner has played most of the season on the wing. Werner still gets the chances to miss, Torres would often go weeks/months without a sniff of a chance because his movement was so outrageously poor.

Atleast with Werner we can utilise his pace and pressing abilities on a tactical level if all else fails, Torres didn't have one positive attribute to fall back on. Teams will still be wary of Timo's pace, defenders practically ignored Torres because they knew he carried little threat.

I was not watching football everyday 6-7 years ago.
But from Torres I remember the goal against Barcelona of course and in his last season under Mourinho some very important goals, against WBA, City (the mijudged backward header), the opener against Atletico. So was he that useless ??

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21 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

I was not watching football everyday 6-7 years ago.
But from Torres I remember the goal against Barcelona of course and in his last season under Mourinho some very important goals, against WBA, City (the mijudged backward header), the opener against Atletico. So was he that useless ??

Yes, he got chance after chance after chance and not only wasted them sulked and played the victim constantly.

The fact a goal in a CL defeat is being used to make a case for him says everything you need to know.

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2 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Yes, he got chance after chance after chance and not only wasted them sulked and played the victim constantly.

The fact a goal in a CL defeat is being used to make a case for him says everything you need to know.

He was n't to blame for the defeat !
We played with third substitute goalkeeper and Atletico were strong.
I watch on daily basis from 2013-14 season which was his last and he was n't the utter predicament you say. Not our strongest asset but no utter predicament. Before 2013-14 I 'm not sure.

 

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4 hours ago, Tomo said:

Torres played up front and had players signed to try and coax form out of him, Werner has played most of the season on the wing. Werner still gets the chances to miss, Torres would often go weeks/months without a sniff of a chance because his movement was so outrageously poor.

Atleast with Werner we can utilise his pace and pressing abilities on a tactical level if all else fails, Torres didn't have one positive attribute to fall back on. Teams will still be wary of Timo's pace, defenders practically ignored Torres because they knew he carried little threat.

May I also add the fact that Werner can at least play in different positions across the frontline? Meaning the club and/or manager is less likely to force the issue like with Torres previously if Werner isn't going to score consistently. 

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I 've seen the likes of Werner many times.
One veteran fast winger who is a member of the "Werner club" is a facebook friend of mine as well.
It looks strange though that he was n't of that fame back in RBL.
For those types there is no cure.
 

 

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15 hours ago, cosmicway said:


I watch on daily basis from 2013-14 season which was his last and he was n't the utter predicament you say. Not our strongest asset but no utter predicament. Before 2013-14 I 'm not sure.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. Me saying I have a newfound appreciation for Torres (and Morata) was more of a hyperbole to express how frustrating Werner is. Torres was really that bad. Terrible movement, constantly getting caught offside, sulking and blaming the club for his misfortunes. I remember an interview where he said at some point he even stopped caring if we win or lose. He scored a few important goals, but that hardly changes the general outlook.

However even Torres at his absolute worst was more clinical than Werner is at this point and that's an extremely miserable and depressing thing to realise. Sure he didn't get at the end of many chances but his finishing was so much better than Werner's. Looking back he had that outrageous open goal miss against Man Utd at the beginning of 2011/2012, but that (and probably a few others that I can't remember) is pretty much it. With Werner you can get a decent compilation of missed chances and he hasn't even completed a full season with the club yet.

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7 minutes ago, different level said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. Me saying I have a newfound appreciation for Torres (and Morata) was more of a hyberbole to express how frustrating Werner is. Torres was really that bad. Terrible movement, constantly getting caught offside, sulking and blaming the club for his misfortunes. I remember an interview where he said at some point he even stopped caring if we win or lose. He scored a few important goals, but that hardly changes the general outlook.

However even Torres at his absolute worst was more clinical than Werner is at this point and that's an extremely miserable and depressing thing to realise. Sure he didn't get at the end of many chances but his finishing was so much better than Werner's. Looking back he had that outrageous open goal miss against Man Utd at the beginning of 2011/2012, but that (and probably a few others that I can't remember) is pretty much it. With Werner you can get a decent compilation of missed chances and he hasn't even completed a full season with the club yet.

Hard to have a compilation of misses if the player doesn't (want to) get at the end of chances, which you alluded to about Torres' poor movement and him getting caught offside etc. Not making excuses for Werner missing chances but he could have easily just spared himself of missing chances by not getting at the end of them and he hasn't. 

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13 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

This is why he has zero open play assists this season.

Unless you mean the Premier League, Mount does have 2 assists from open play this season - against Rennes (a) and Barnsley (h).

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13 hours ago, DDA said:

How did Mason not see Ziyech at the end is beyond me but hey a win is a win. Well done boys. Madrid next.

Most of our attackers have their head down. Ziyech excluded 

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8 minutes ago, Jason said:

Not making excuses for Werner missing chances but he could have easily just spared himself of missing chances by not getting at the end of them and he hasn't. 

Can't see how that makes it any better. If anything it's much more frustrating and painful to watch. You'd probably say that if his movement is better and he keeps getting at end the end of chances his finishing should eventually improve and that's what I thought at first, but time is passing and Timo keeps fluffing them with confidence.

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1 minute ago, different level said:

Can't see how that makes it any better. If anything it's much more frustrating and painful to watch. You'd probably say that if his movement is better and he keeps getting at end the end of chances his finishing should eventually improve and that's what I thought at first, but time is passing and Timo keeps fluffing them with confidence.

My point is Werner could have easily gone to hiding, like Torres and Morata did when they were in their bad moments, with all those missed chances but he hasn't.

Werner missing chances is nothing new. It happened in the Bundesliga as well. The only difference then is he tended to get a lot more chances and score to more than make up for the misses. Last season, for example, he scored 28 league goals but also missed 21 big chances. For context, Lewandowski has scored 36 league goals but has also missed 21 big chances this season and Haaland has scored 25 goals but also missed 19 big chances this campaign. 

I don't know if he'll ever become a clinical striker in the Premier League (one can hope) but this would be less of an issue if we have a clinical striker taking the main goalscoring role and Werner being second on that list. It's like Salah-Mane at Liverpool and Kane-Son at Spurs; Salah and Kane are the main scorer while Mane and Son are the secondary goal source at those clubs.

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1 hour ago, Jason said:

Unless you mean the Premier League, Mount does have 2 assists from open play this season - against Rennes (a) and Barnsley (h).

Ofc I mean only PL. Believe me I remember every of his open play assists because they are so rare. Last season also just 2. Wolves and Burnley. 

I don't think people realise how big that stat is. Zero open play assists in the league. That is like Werner having zero league goals or Mendy having zero clean sheets. 

12 different players managed open play assists this season but Mount is not among them. Keep in mind position he plays and the fact that he is 1st in team in minutes played. By far actually. 

Mount 2546 minutes. 

Werner 2243

Kante 2021 (2 open play assists). 

Chilwell 1939 

James 1917

Azpi 1846 

Jorginho 1752 

Kovacic 1694 

Pulisic 1376 

Havertz 1342 

Abraham 1020 

CHO 999 

Ziyech 995 minutes played. 

All these players managed at least one open play assist. 

Considering his position and minutes played I think it would be weird if he is 2nd on the list or 3rd. But not only that he is not 2nd, 3rd... He is not at all on the list! 

 

Ederson and Johnstone! 2 GKs managed one open play assist this season! But not our attacking midfielder with most minutes in the squad. Shocking! 

If I continue to analyse his offensive game you may find more interesting stats... 

Only 8 players have more shots on goal in the league. Kane, Salah, Bruno, Bamford, Mane, Watkins, KDB and Firmino. So he is a bit wasteful there as well. There have been situations where instead of shooting he should maybe pass and make assist. 

We praise him for corners but he has 118 corners taken which resulted with 3 goals. Chilwell took 26 corners - 1 goal, James 24 corners - 1 goal and Ziyech 19 corners - 1 goal. So in terms of percentage they are all better at set pieces. 

6 goals is solid but 4 came against teams that will be relegated and one from penalty. 

By saying all this I totally expect him to win POTY because he is favourite player for 90% of our fans. 

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