21. Ben Chilwell

[Blue Armour 4,158]

19 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Gnabry was only just turned 20 years old then, when the fool Pulis said that

and he already was turning into a beast 2 and half  years years ago (he had an explosive December onward Bundesliga in 2017/18, under Nagelsmann), when he was 22 (he was injured for months at the beginning of that season)

 

I challenge people to show me these 'thousands' (that is a number that has been claimed) of players who post 24yo, so 25 years of age and on, exploded out of nowhere

Yeah,...'thousands' is no doubt an exaggeration.

There are a few good examples,...like our very own Didier Drogba, and to some extent, even Lampard, but I think these popular examples are clouding people's opinion.

[Jype 6,398]

34 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I challenge people to show me these 'thousands' (that is a number that has been claimed) of players who post 24yo, so 25 years of age and on, exploded out of nowhere

Was anyone claiming "explode out of nowhere" though? That term is reserved for the likes of Jamie Vardy (factory worker and non-league player at 25) but from what I understood they just meant that players still improve after age 24, which in almost every case is very much true and most players peak at 27-30. It's very rare for a player to peak before 24 and those usually involve bad injuries etc.

Or do you disagree? From our previous core players what level were the likes of Terry, Carvalho, Ivanovic, Lampard, Makelele, Matic, Kante, Drogba, Costa and countless others playing at 23-24 age? Did they or did they not improve massively after that age?

Chillwell at 23yo is a good PL level player. Whether he takes similar steps in his development and becomes a great player like the ones I mentioned is still very much out in the open but he's more or less the best we could realistically go after in this window so I'm more than willing to take that chance. Even at his current level he's an improvement over Alonso/Emerson. That alone is worth some of the investment (30M net after selling Emerson at 20M) and if he does develop further then great for him.

[Vesper 27,280]

11 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Yeah,...'thousands' is no doubt an exaggeration.

There are a few good examples,...like our very own Didier Drogba, and to some extent, even Lampard, but I think these popular examples are clouding people's opinion.

yes, the exceptions that prove the rule

speaking of Drogba, his backstory is crazy, it is one of those fairy-tales

Early life

Drogba was born in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, and at the age of five was sent to France by his parents to live with his uncle, Michel Goba, a professional footballer. However, Drogba soon became homesick and returned to Abidjan after three years.^[18] His mother nicknamed him "Tito", after president Josip Broz Tito of Yugoslavia, whom she admired greatly.^[19] He played football every day in a car park in the city but his return to the Ivory Coast was short lived. Both of his parents lost their jobs and he again returned to live with his uncle.^[18] In 1991, his parents also travelled to France; first to Vannes and then, in 1993, setting in Antony in the Paris suburbs, at which point the 15-year-old Drogba returned to live with them and his siblings.^[20] It was here that he began playing team football more frequently, joining a local youth side. Drogba then joined the semi-professional club Levallois, gaining a reputation as a prolific scorer in the youth team and impressing the coach with his professional attitude. His performances earned him a place in the senior squad but despite scoring in his debut, the 18-year-old Ivorian failed to make an impression on Jacques Loncar, the first team coach.^[21]

Club career

Le Mans

When Drogba finished school he moved to the city Le Mans to study accountancy at university and he had to change clubs, becoming an apprentice at Ligue 2 club Le Mans. However, his first two years there were marred by injuries and he was physically struggling to cope with the training and match schedule.^[18] Former Le Mans coach Marc Westerloppe later remarked that "it took Didier four years to be capable of training every day and playing every week". Furthermore, Drogba's complicated family life meant that he had never attended a football academy and only began daily football training as a fully grown adult.^[22]

By age 21, Drogba realised that he had to establish himself as a player soon or else he would have little chance of becoming a professional footballer.^[23] He made his first team debut for Le Mans soon thereafter and signed his first professional contract in 1999. The same year, he and his Malian wife Alla had their first child, Isaac. He grew into his new responsibilities, later stating: "Isaac's birth was a turning point in my life, it straightened me out".^[18] His first season, in which he scored seven goals in thirty games, boded well for the future, but during the following season he did not live up to expectations. Drogba lost his place to Daniel Cousin due to injury, then upon his return, he failed to score throughout the remainder of the season. However, he returned to form the following season, scoring five goals in 21 appearances.^[24]

Guingamp

Halfway through the 2001–02 season Ligue 1 club Guingamp consolidated months of interest with a transfer offer and Drogba left Le Mans for a fee of £80,000.^[18] The second half of the 2001–02 season saw Drogba make 11 appearances and score three goals for Guingamp. While his contributions helped the club avoid relegation, the coaching staff remained unconvinced of their new young striker.^[25] However, the next season he rewarded his coaches' patience, scoring 17 goals in 34 appearances and helping Guingamp finish seventh, a record league finish.^[18] He credited his teammates for his impressive season, highlighting the contributions of winger Florent Malouda, a long time friend of Drogba, as a key factor in his goalscoring prolificity that season.^[23] His strong goal scoring record attracted interest from larger clubs and at the end of the season, he moved to Ligue 1 side Olympique de Marseille for a fee of £3.3 million.^[22]

Marseille

After a switch of coaches, Drogba retained his position in the team, scoring 19 goals and winning the National Union of Professional Footballers (UNFP) Player of the Year award. He also scored five goals in that season's UEFA Champions League and six in the UEFA Cup. At the end of the season, he was bought by Chelsea as the club's then record signing for £24 million.^[23] His shirt from his only season at Marseille is also framed in the basilica of Marseille, Notre-Dame de la Garde, which he presented to the church before the 2004 UEFA Cup Final.^[26]

Chelsea.............

[Vesper 27,280]

10 minutes ago, Jype said:

Was anyone claiming "explode out of nowhere" though? That term is reserved for the likes of Jamie Vardy (factory worker and non-league player at 25) but from what I understood they just meant that players still improve after age 24, which in almost every case is very much true and most players peak at 27-30. It's very rare for a player to peak before 24 and those usually involve bad injuries etc.

Or do you disagree? From our previous core players what level were the likes of Terry, Carvalho, Ivanovic, Lampard, Makelele, Matic, Kante, Drogba, Costa and countless others playing at 23-24 age? Did they or did they not improve massively after that age?

Chillwell at 23yo is a good PL level player. Whether he takes similar steps in his development and becomes a great player like the ones I mentioned is still very much out in the open but he's more or less the best we could realistically go after in this window so I'm more than willing to take that chance. Even at his current level he's an improvement over Alonso/Emerson. That alone is worth some of the investment (30M net after selling Emerson at 20M) and if he does develop further then great for him.

of course players usually improve after 24 (the majority I would say, although if they are destined to be shit they probably will not, and you also have those frustrating ones like Michael Owen who peak so young and then it is a long slide down, often due to injuries, etc)

what I am saying is that a player has turned 25yo and still has not shown much, the odds are pretty high they never will

[Stats 6,980]

3 hours ago, killer1257 said:

National team? Impressive against teams like Montenegro.

Problem is his price. He costs more than double the price we would have to pay for Reguilon and Chilwell would become the second most expensive Lb of all time and according to telegraph, there are very likely add ons and depending what kind of add ons, he becomes the most expensive Lb of all time. So very high expectations and can he deliver Robertson level stats? He has to get close to his stats some day, otherwise he is a flop. We paid 80 million or something for Kepa and that was a huge mistake. If Chilwell's price was 25 million just like Reguilon, nobody would moan here. Currently, he is even injured and he has been injured at least 2 months now. We get an out of form and out of shape Chilwell for 50 million pounds. His last season does clearly not justify that insane price. I have seen Lamptey completely destroy him. He looked clueless against Mahrez and we criticize Emerson and Alonso when they play bad against Mahrez. But we have to even criticize Chilwell more due to the fact that he is at least the second most expensive LB of all time

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk
 

He got MOTM away to Croatia also right? Croatia are arguably better than England. Ok, you saw Lamptey destroy him. I saw Chilwell put in MOTM performance against us at the Bridge when they beat us 1-0. Don't get me wrong, I have been really impressed by Reguilon and I would take him here. However Chilwell seems to be Lamps first choice and I think people need to get behind him and also support the player. The lack of support it is was is surprsing me. Chilwell has shown flaws but he also has shown qualites in the PL too. Price, we getting him for around £50m which is a lot lower than Leciester initially wanted. It is a good deal.

Matter of fact is all English players are overpriced. Norwich got relegated and already put a £50m price tag on Ben Godfrey. We have seen too many occasions before where the board gets a player who is not necessarily the manager's first choice and it has backfired. IIRC Conte wanted Lukaku but the board wanted Morata. I think a lot of fans were happy with that but facts is if Conte got his wish and got his man, it would have worked better but we got a striker who it just went really wrong. So I am happy that Lamps is now being given the full backing and I am sure he has weighed up why he wants him and also believes he can improve him as a player. When Lamps supported the permanent signing of Kovacic, again a lot of people did not agree, but most of them if not all of them now have changed their mind. Lamps improved Kovacic. Let's give Chilwell time to actually play under Lampard before writing him off. 

Also I never agree with paying that much money for a keeper, however getting Chilwell for this price in the English market is no way near in comparison to the Kepa deal.

[Vesper 27,280]

11 minutes ago, Stats said:

He got MOTM away to Croatia also right? Croatia are arguably better than England. Ok, you saw Lamptey destroy him. I saw Chilwell put in MOTM performance against us at the Bridge when they beat us 1-0. Don't get me wrong, I have been really impressed by Reguilon and I would take him here. However Chilwell seems to be Lamps first choice and I think people need to get behind him and also support the player. The lack of support it is was is surprsing me. Chilwell has shown flaws but he also has shown qualites in the PL too. Price, we getting him for around £50m which is a lot lower than Leciester initially wanted. It is a good deal.

Matter of fact is all English players are overpriced. Norwich got relegated and already put a £50m price tag on Ben Godfrey. We have seen too many occasions before where the board gets a player who is not necessarily the manager's first choice and it has backfired. IIRC Conte wanted Lukaku but the board wanted Morata. I think a lot of fans were happy with that but facts is if Conte got his wish and got his man, it would have worked better but we got a striker who it just went really wrong. So I am happy that Lamps is now being given the full backing and I am sure he has weighed up why he wants him and also believes he can improve him as a player. When Lamps supported the permanent signing of Kovacic, again a lot of people did not agree, but most of them if not all of them now have changed their mind. Lamps improved Kovacic. Let's give Chilwell time to actually play under Lampard before writing him off. 

Also I never agree with paying that much money for a keeper, however getting Chilwell for this price in the English market is no way near in comparison to the Kepa deal.

fair points and if it is £50m, that is only a £10m or so overpay, and not a £40m one

I would drop £35-40m on Reguilon if that meant no buyback, for instance, especially if Chilwell did not exist

once Theo is removed from the table, they are the two best remaining options (due to Alaba¨s age and salary demands)

there simply has to be some reason (and I do not often use this angle) that NO big team has purchased Telles in the past, not even now (although he does soon turn 28). some reason I cannot easily put my finger on (probably his poor defence, would be my beats guess, but even there, he is hardly pure shite)

I would think PSG eventually buys Telles, the weak Ligue 1 is fine for him, and he can be a massive weapon for them for the next 4 years or so

[DDA 9,570]

55 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Gnabry was only just turned 20 years old then, when the fool Pulis said that

and he already was turning into a beast 2 and half  years years ago (he had an explosive December onward Bundesliga in 2017/18, under Nagelsmann), when he was 22 (he was injured for months at the beginning of that season)

 

I challenge people to show me these 'thousands' (that is a number that has been claimed) of players who post 24yo, so 25 years of age and on, exploded out of nowhere

 

22 minutes ago, Jype said:

Was anyone claiming "explode out of nowhere" though? That term is reserved for the likes of Jamie Vardy (factory worker and non-league player at 25) but from what I understood they just meant that players still improve after age 24, which in almost every case is very much true and most players peak at 27-30. It's very rare for a player to peak before 24 and those usually involve bad injuries etc.

Or do you disagree? From our previous core players what level were the likes of Terry, Carvalho, Ivanovic, Lampard, Makelele, Matic, Kante, Drogba, Costa and countless others playing at 23-24 age? Did they or did they not improve massively after that age?

Chillwell at 23yo is a good PL level player. Whether he takes similar steps in his development and becomes a great player like the ones I mentioned is still very much out in the open but he's more or less the best we could realistically go after in this window so I'm more than willing to take that chance. Even at his current level he's an improvement over Alonso/Emerson. That alone is worth some of the investment (30M net after selling Emerson at 20M) and if he does develop further then great for him.

Exactly. I wasn't claiming they turn into Zidane post 24 years of age lol.

But

I was saying that a player never stops learning and improving leading into his early 30's. 

Some players really hit their peak in terms of consistency when approaching 30.

How old is VVD?

How old was CR7 at Real Madrid when he was tallying up crazy numbers and the height of his powers?

I'm pretty sure Fat Ronaldo was over 24 when he destroyed Man United in the CL and took Brazil to the WC final pretty much single handedly.

And I am talking about the greats here.

There are literally 'thousands' of cases where average players improve post 24.. and go on to have pretty decent careers. 

So the point I was making was... this if you arent the finished article by 24 then your wont ever be... is utter bullshit.

[Pulisicismydaddy 91]

I think it's sad how some are trying to find any excuse for Chilwell and pretend he is better than we've seen this season, you only need to read the Leicester forum to see how happy they are they got 50 mil for an average player. They watched him all season, I'd rather believe them when it comes to Chilwell than some here saying he can improve massively at 24 years old.

[Vesper 27,280]

1 minute ago, DDA said:

 

Exactly. I wasn't claiming they turn into Zidane post 24 years of age lol.

But

I was saying that a player never stops learning and improving leading into his early 30's. 

Some players really hit their peak in terms of consistency when approaching 30.

How old is VVD?

How old was CR7 at Real Madrid when he was tallying up crazy numbers and the height of his powers?

I'm pretty sure Fat Ronaldo was over 24 when he destroyed Man United in the CL and took Brazil to the WC final pretty much single handedly.

And I am talking about the greats here.

There are literally 'thousands' of cases where average players improve post 24.. and go on to have pretty decent careers. 

So the point I was making was... this if you arent the finished article by 24 then your wont ever be... is utter bullshit.

never said the finished article

but if you are 25 or older and not a player of impact by then (not saying superstar at all) then the odds are very low you become one

sure there are multiple examples, but it definitely is not the norm

I never said, to repeat, that player do not improve above 24, most do (other than the ones who peak early and decline and/or the injury-riddled ones, which are often the same)

[Special Juan 27,092]

I love the way the shutters go down in regards to Chilwell offering something and improving, but when it comes to Hakim Ziyech who's 27 it's all "He's going to pull up trees"

A flair player and age shouldn't go against what either can offer.

Every single transfer is a risk, no matter how good you are or how middle of the road you are, there is nothing to say you will light the league up.

[Pizy 17,860]

Give him 10 games as a starter before we judge him at least. That'll be a good sample size.

If our attack is as substantially improved as it should be with all these signings Chilwell may not even be called into action defensively very often. If he's playing in the opponents half most of the time this will be a fantastic signing.

And seeing as we have the majority of the ball in all but maybe a handful of matches a season, I think it'll go well. And unlike Alonso, Chilwell has good recovery speed and can actually run past a defender when he's got the ball. Those two things alone should be a colossal upgrade.

Alonso can be kept around for the times when Frank switches to a back 3.

[Jype 6,398]

42 minutes ago, Pulisicismydaddy said:

I think it's sad how some are trying to find any excuse for Chilwell and pretend he is better than we've seen this season, you only need to read the Leicester forum to see how happy they are they got 50 mil for an average player. They watched him all season, I'd rather believe them when it comes to Chilwell than some here saying he can improve massively at 24 years old.

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/122605-ben-chilwell/#comments

Go have a look. I read the first ~15 pages of posts from May and like 95% were saying they'd be very disappointed if he was sold for any price. Also read some of the posts from last night when the news broke and even then most of them were saying they think the price is not good for them and Leicester should've held out for more money. Sure there's also some who think 50m is a good deal for them but certainly not a majority opinion.

Over there some think he's absolutely great, some think he's a good player who has some flaws but can still improve and only very few people are saying he's actually a bad player.  Chillwell divides their opinions like Willian here at TC.  

But saying they (Leicester fans) are collectively happy about Chillwell gone is simply not true and you need to have a serious agenda against the player if you can read that forum and conclude they all think he's shit and are happy with the sale.

[Vesper 27,280]

1 hour ago, Pulisicismydaddy said:

I think it's sad how some are trying to find any excuse for Chilwell and pretend he is better than we've seen this season, you only need to read the Leicester forum to see how happy they are they got 50 mil for an average player. They watched him all season, I'd rather believe them when it comes to Chilwell than some here saying he can improve massively at 24 years old.

I would rather have Theo or Reguilon, but not distraught over Chilwell at £50m

and, to agree (there seems to be some confusion here on my stance) with others

I DEFFO think he will absolutely improve over the next 2,3 years.

I am going to unequivocally say he is so not a shit buy when strictly speaking about the quality of the player

this exact moment in time (age tossed aside, potential down the road tossed asside, so only talking about the ONE season that soon starts, and also not talking about actual availability or wages or cost)

I rate the following LB's (and this is in exact order, so would be my choice of starters if I could choose ANYONE for thsi one coming season)

 

Alphonso Davies 
David Alaba    
Andrew Robertson    
Theo Hernández
Alex Sandro (last season this high)
Ferland Mendy
Sergio Reguilón
Ben Chilwell 
José Gayà
Renan Lodi  
Lucas Digne
Alex Telles
Ramy Bensebaini
Kieran Tierney
Nicolás Tagliafico
Jordi Alba (last season on this list, plus I detest him, but we are talking a one year team)
Robin Gosens
Rayan Aït Nouri   
Luca Pellegrini
Álex Grimaldo

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

12 minutes ago, Pizy said:

Give him 10 games as a starter before we judge him at least

Exactly, signing for a club like Chelsea could be the making of him. Slagging off someone before he's kicked a ball for us is ridiculous and let me tell you Lampard wasn't exactly a popular buy when we bought him from West Ham he turned out pretty well didn't he.

[YorkshireBlue 2,823]

8 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Exactly, signing for a club like Chelsea could be the making of him. Slagging off someone before he's kicked a ball for us is ridiculous and let me tell you Lampard wasn't exactly a popular buy when we bought him from West Ham he turned out pretty well didn't he.

Doesn't matter who we buy, some on here will find a fault with perfect 

 

[Pulisicismydaddy 91]

45 minutes ago, Jype said:

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/122605-ben-chilwell/#comments

Go have a look. I read the first ~15 pages of posts from May and like 95% were saying they'd be very disappointed if he was sold for any price. Also read some of the posts from last night when the news broke and even then most of them were saying they think the price is not good for them and Leicester should've held out for more money. Sure there's also some who think 50m is a good deal for them but certainly not a majority opinion.

Over there some think he's absolutely great, some think he's a good player who has some flaws but can still improve and only very few people are saying he's actually a bad player.  Chillwell divides their opinions like Willian here at TC.  

But saying they (Leicester fans) are collectively happy about Chillwell gone is simply not true and you need to have a serious agenda against the player if you can read that forum and conclude they all think he's shit and are happy with the sale.

Go and read the last 15 pages most are extremely happy he left for this sum, there are few sad on the price but the majority don't even care he left and are happy on the potential replacement who can improve them. Even his player thread was infested with members saying he is shit and wanted him gone. As a matter of fact the Bakayoko and Drinkwater threads first pages look almost identical to this one where people defend them for any reason under moon, unfortunately we know how those ended.

I'm not kin on this transfer one bit, you don't pay 50 mil for a player who is maximum at the same level to others costing 25 mil only because he is English and Lampard is obsessed with British players, the he knows the league is also overstated, if you're good you adapt in any league anyways, just like Thiago will adapt if he comes here and suddenly becomes our best defender, you either are good or not.

[Jype 6,398]

1 hour ago, Pulisicismydaddy said:

Go and read the last 15 pages most are extremely happy he left for this sum, there are few sad on the price but the majority don't even care he left and are happy on the potential replacement who can improve them. Even his player thread was infested with members saying he is shit and wanted him gone.

I'd much rather trust their opinions from the time when it wasn't yet clear he was going to be sold and everything was still on the rumor stage of things. Don't know about you but I've been following these transfer markets long enough to recognize the mental gymnastics many fans go through when a key player is leaving. It's the football version of a dude desperately trying to hit on a girl at a bar and after getting rejected he goes 'oh well, she wasn't really that good looking anyway'.

I'm not saying all their fans are like this and some may have had bad feelings about Chillwell for a longer time but the overwhelming majority liked him and wanted him to stay. All that revisionist thinking after the transfer is more or less done already is irrelevant.

 

1 hour ago, Pulisicismydaddy said:

As a matter of fact the Bakayoko and Drinkwater threads first pages look almost identical to this one where people defend them for any reason under moon, unfortunately we know how those ended.

Perhaps. But fact is Drinkwater was signed at 27yo and it was clear his level was never going to improve. Pretty much everyone thought he'd never be more than a half-decent backup / rotational option and I don't think anyone was ever under any delusion that he was going to be a big hitter for us. But even so I don't think many saw him being a total train wreck of a signing that he's turned out in the end. After all we were talking about an experienced PL level player at his peak years, one who only a year before was a starter in a title winning squad. His career got really fucked when Sarri never fancied him even for the backup role and I'm not sure but I think he may have developed himself a drinking problem during that season, seeing as he's had many alcohol-related incidents since then.

I admit I was excited about Bakayoko and got proven wrong. But I'm pretty sure you can find just as many threads about players who fans were initially not that keen on but who proved them wrong (ie. Pulisic who many considered just a marketing stunt for USA).

 

1 hour ago, Pulisicismydaddy said:

I'm not kin on this transfer one bit, you don't pay 50 mil for a player who is maximum at the same level to others costing 25 mil only because he is English and Lampard is obsessed with British players, the he knows the league is also overstated, if you're good you adapt in any league anyways, just like Thiago will adapt if he comes here and suddenly becomes our best defender, you either are good or not.

So who would you have gone for that is significantly better than Ben Chillwell?

And please for the love of motherfucker don't say Sergio Reguilon. He is not considerably better and RM want a buy-back clause on him which is the only reason he's available for a somewhat reasonable price. Without a buy-back we'd probably be looking at Chillwell type money, give or take a 5-10mil. The likes of Alex Telles and Nicolas Tagliafico come with just as many question marks as Chillwell, if not even more, and being 28yo neither of those are ever going to improve either. 

Personally I couldn't care less whether a signing costs 25m or 50m, as long as the club can afford it without it affecting other transfer targets. The only scenario where that money difference comes into play is if the player fails and needs to be sold, which is easier to do if he's cost less money. But if the club can afford it I'll happily accept the manager's personal choice because it shows he has a plan and the club are backing it, even if it is more expensive than some other option. 

All I'd like is for fans to actually give him a proper chance and not fucking abuse him on social media even before joining. He's not the one who sets the price tag on him. Slagging him off before he's even kicked a ball for the club is only going to increase the pressure on him.  

[Ryan Fong 2,776]

I think it's sad how some are trying to find any excuse for Chilwell and pretend he is better than we've seen this season, you only need to read the Leicester forum to see how happy they are they got 50 mil for an average player. They watched him all season, I'd rather believe them when it comes to Chilwell than some here saying he can improve massively at 24 years old.

Ironically you practically have watched Reguilon for 2 matches max then you are so sure he is better than Chilwell. Using your logic I’d rather believe Lampard and all the well paid scouts than you guys here saying Reguilon is a definite better buy, all things considered.