Mikel John Obi

[JDY 1,290]

Mikel is a decent player but he's overrated as he's the only viable option we have for the pivot at the moment. It's questionable whether he is good enough to be a regular starter for a team aiming to challenge on all fronts. The general consensus is that Mikel is an undervalued part of the team, and I would agree to an extent. But his flaws outweigh his strengths for me, especially if we persist with the 4-2-3-1 which requires a lot more pressing than Mikel is capable of.

We could certainly get better than Mikel, and there are a number of players out there who would significantly improve our pivot.

[The Skipper 20,593]

We've won a lot of trophies with Mikel as our starting DM.

[Santiago. 1,500]

Would love to see both Mikel AND Ramires sold in the summer personally. Use the funds for Fellaini and Benat.

That would be beautiful but we would be getting rid of them so unceremoniously

[JDY 1,290]

We've won a lot of trophies with Mikel as our starting DM.

In a 4-3-3 where he's more suited.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

In a 4-3-3 where he's more suited.

How about the FA cup and CL last season? Everyone seem to have forgotten that the pivot of him and Lamps was one of the main reasons for last year's triumphs.

[JDY 1,290]

How about the FA cup and CL last season? Everyone seem to have forgotten that the pivot of him and Lamps was one of the main reasons for last year's triumphs.

One of the main reasons for last years triumphs was luck and the way the team was set up. Mikel was our best player in Munich. Why? Because he was deployed so deep that he was almost playing the same role he does in a 4-3-3. In the 4-2-3-1 you have to have two competent ball winners, neither Mikel or Lampard are this. Mikel is an excellent positional player, but doesn't have the domineering presence to be great in the pivot. Lampard's defensive contribution is non-existent, the only reason he hasn't been scapegoated but Mikel has is because he's a club legend and scores a lot of goals.

Lars Bender/Etienne Capoue/Maxime Gonalons/Sebastian Rode/Ignacio Camacho/Morgan Schneiderlin would all be good options to displace both, or play alongside Mikel in the pivot. Lampard is the main problem here, whether or not people don't like to admit it.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

One of the main reasons for last years triumphs was luck and the way the team was set up. Mikel was our best player in Munich. Why? Because he was deployed so deep that he was almost playing the same role he does in a 4-3-3. In the 4-2-3-1 you have to have two competent ball winners, neither Mikel or Lampard are this. Mikel is an excellent positional player, but doesn't have the domineering presence to be great in the pivot. Lampard's defensive contribution is non-existent, the only reason he hasn't been scapegoated but Mikel has is because he's a club legend and scores a lot of goals.

Lars Bender/Etienne Capoue/Maxime Gonalons/Sebastian Rode/Ignacio Camacho/Morgan Schneiderlin would all be good options to displace both, or play alongside Mikel in the pivot. Lampard is the main problem here, whether or not people don't like to admit it.

You win one or two games by luck but not 2 cups. Every team that has ever won the CL has had some luck but that does not take from the players' effort. Although his best performance was probably Munich, Mikel was exceptionally good throught the last 3 months. The FA cup final is another brilliant performance by him and we were, for 70 mins, dominating Liverpool and pressing high up the pitch.

I would agree on Lamps if you mean this season but last season Frank was excellent in the pivot. He was very disciplined and defended surprisingly well. I never knew he was such a good tackler before last season! But that came at the price of him scoring goals. I think he didn't score a single goal under RDM last season except from set pieces. This season he is not willing to pay that price because of the record.

Point is, the notion that Mikel, and even Ramires, cannot be in the team if you want to win trophies is ridiculous since we already won the biggest trophy out there with them being crucial players in the team.

[JDY 1,290]

I would agree on Lamps if you mean this season but last season Frank was excellent in the pivot. He was very disciplined and defended surprisingly well. I never knew he was such a good tackler before last season! But that came at the price of him scoring goals. I think he didn't score a single goal under RDM last season except from set pieces. This season he is not willing to pay that price because of the record.

Point is, the notion that Mikel, and even Ramires, cannot be in the team if you want to win trophies is ridiculous since we already won the biggest trophy out there with them being crucial players in the team.

He wasn't excellent in the pivot IMO, but if you think he was then ok. He was certainly better than he's been this season but if you contrast the style of play then and now it's very different, which makes discussing last season completely irrelevant. Cahill was excellent towards the end of last season as a sweeper, he thrived on defending deep, tackling and clearing everything in sight. This season we have tried to play in an expansive, open style and it worked in the early part of the season until we got found out. Cahill is a box defender, and not much more. You can say all you like about Lampard, he is not a defensive midfielder and he never will be a good one. He doesn't track runners, his positioning is bad, and he doesn't make enough tackles or interceptions to be a pivot player. I can't say if he's a good tackler or not because he doesn't attempt many.

And I said if we persist with the 4-2-3-1, there will be question marks about Mikel in the pivot. He does a decent job, but isn't completely suited to the role as I've said. If we change back to 4-3-3 then he should play no question.

[The only place to be 11,313]

You win one or two games by luck but not 2 cups. Every team that has ever won the CL has had some luck but that does not take from the players' effort. Although his best performance was probably Munich, Mikel was exceptionally good throught the last 3 months. The FA cup final is another brilliant performance by him and we were, for 70 mins, dominating Liverpool and pressing high up the pitch.

I would agree on Lamps if you mean this season but last season Frank was excellent in the pivot. He was very disciplined and defended surprisingly well. I never knew he was such a good tackler before last season! But that came at the price of him scoring goals. I think he didn't score a single goal under RDM last season except from set pieces. This season he is not willing to pay that price because of the record.

Point is, the notion that Mikel, and even Ramires, cannot be in the team if you want to win trophies is ridiculous since we already won the biggest trophy out there with them being crucial players in the team.

We also finished 6th in the league.

Solomon Kalou and Jose Bosingwa by the way.

[The Mak 4,459]

He wasn't excellent in the pivot IMO, but if you think he was then ok. He was certainly better than he's been this season but if you contrast the style of play then and now it's very different, which makes discussing last season completely irrelevant. Cahill was excellent towards the end of last season as a sweeper, he thrived on defending deep, tackling and clearing everything in sight. This season we have tried to play in an expansive, open style and it worked in the early part of the season until we got found out. Cahill is a box defender, and not much more. You can say all you like about Lampard, he is not a defensive midfielder and he never will be a good one. He doesn't track runners, his positioning is bad, and he doesn't make enough tackles or interceptions to be a pivot player. I can't say if he's a good tackler or not because he doesn't attempt many.

And I said if we persist with the 4-2-3-1, there will be question marks about Mikel in the pivot. He does a decent job, but isn't completely suited to the role as I've said. If we change back to 4-3-3 then he should play no question.

As you can see JDY, I agree with absolutely everything you've said! This is what I was trying to get at when I started the thread 'Why are we playing 4-2-3-1?' months ago.

If you don't have the players for a formation, you don't play it. Simples. But we continue to persist with this formation, though it feels like there is a big disconnect where DMs are supposed to operate. I don't see Mikel as adequate enough; while Lamps, Ramires and Luiz are not DMs (I'd feel bad rulling out Romeu, since he never really gotten a chance).

If we got 2 quality DMs, such as Beñat and Capoué, then great. Play 4-2-3-1. But if not, I'd much rather see a 4-3-3 like you said, or a 4-3-2-1 with Mikel sitting deep and Lamps/Ramires/Oscar alongside him.

[JDY 1,290]

As you can see JDY, I agree with absolutely everything you've said! This is what I was trying to get at when I started the thread 'Why are we playing 4-2-3-1?' months ago.

If you don't have the players for a formation, you don't play it. Simples. But we continue to persist with this formation, though it feels like there is a big disconnect where DMs are supposed to operate. I don't see Mikel as adequate enough; while Lamps, Ramires and Luiz are not DMs (I'd feel bad rulling out Romeu, since he never really gotten a chance).

If we got 2 quality DMs, such as Beñat and Capoué, then great. Play 4-2-3-1. But if not, I'd much rather see a 4-3-3 like you said, or a 4-3-2-1 with Mikel sitting deep and Lamps/Ramires/Oscar alongside him.

It's strange because we bought a lot of attacking quality in the summer, without any idea of how to deploy them. Last years triumphs papered over some major cracks, cracks that despite our summer spending, we did not solve. We overbought in the wrong areas (Probably influenced by Roman's desire to play attractive football), forgetting that you need to have a solid platform for these attacking players to flourish.

Romeu is a tough one to call at this moment. He has the potential to be a great DM, but there are two question marks. 1. We don't know how far this injury will set him back in his development and 2. Is he in for the long haul or is his mind set on playing somewhere else once he develops? I don't like the idea of bringing through a player only for him to want out, we aren't Arsenal.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

We also finished 6th in the league.

Solomon Kalou and Jose Bosingwa by the way.

What's your point? The claims were we cannot win trophies with Mikel and Rami which is not true since we already won trophies with them being integral players in the squad.

Kalou and Bosingwa were not crucial players in us winning the CL. They weren't even starters last season.

[The Mak 4,459]

It's strange because we bought a lot of attacking quality in the summer, without any idea of how to deploy them. Last years triumphs papered over some major cracks, cracks that despite our summer spending, we did not solve. We overbought in the wrong areas (Probably influenced by Roman's desire to play attractive football), forgetting that you need to have a solid platform for these attacking players to flourish.

Romeu is a tough one to call at this moment. He has the potential to be a great DM, but there are two question marks. 1. We don't know how far this injury will set him back in his development and 2. Is he in for the long haul or is his mind set on playing somewhere else once he develops? I don't like the idea of bringing through a player only for him to want out, we aren't Arsenal.

Exactly. What's the saying? 'Build from the back' right? You're right, we did the opposite in many ways, and decided to shoehorn existing players into unnatural positions. Lampard and Mikel were fine for last year when we had our backs to the wall, but wanting to play expansive football with the same players in the same position? Forget about it, a recipe for disaster.

For me, all last season I was saying "Mata needs a creative partner, if we got that in the summer, we'd be ok". Then we signed Hazard and I thought "Great! Job done!". But then Oscar came along and I first thought, "Who is he?" and then "He must be a DM!", because it's only logical right? Nope. I was actually disappointed to find out we just spent £25m on another attacking midfielder, considering our massive elephant-like hole where a DLP should be.

Romeu is difficult alright, but either way, we can only hope this doesn't hurt his development. If he does move on, it'd be nice to see his stock rise beforehand at least. However, if Barca is indeed the team you're thinking of, I would imagine that Busquets pretty much has the DM position nailed for Barca for the remainder of his career, and he's only 24. Also, you have to acknowledge their acquisition of Song during the summer. I don't think they'll ever come back for Romeu and I can't see him going anywhere else. Especially since the only other team I would consider 'a step up' for any of our players would be Madrid and I don't think he'll ever go there.

[Blue Armour 4,158]

A gripe I have with the 4-2-3-1 is that our double pivot members never seem to know where to position themselves when opposition midfielders start making attacking runs.

I've lost count of the number of times this when both the pivot members have dropped deep into the d-box, allowing unmarked opposition to come and take a shot at goal.

[Clevemayer 764]

A gripe I have with the 4-2-3-1 is that our double pivot members never seem to know where to position themselves when opposition midfielders start making attacking runs.

I've lost count of the number of times this when both the pivot members have dropped deep into the d-box, allowing unmarked opposition to come and take a shot at goal.

Thats a good post, thats what I have felt very often and I think there is no understanding between our pivot...

[Kojo 4,676]

As you can see JDY, I agree with absolutely everything you've said! This is what I was trying to get at when I started the thread 'Why are we playing 4-2-3-1?' months ago.

If you don't have the players for a formation, you don't play it. Simples. But we continue to persist with this formation, though it feels like there is a big disconnect where DMs are supposed to operate. I don't see Mikel as adequate enough; while Lamps, Ramires and Luiz are not DMs (I'd feel bad rulling out Romeu, since he never really gotten a chance).

If we got 2 quality DMs, such as Beñat and Capoué, then great. Play 4-2-3-1. But if not, I'd much rather see a 4-3-3 like you said, or a 4-3-2-1 with Mikel sitting deep and Lamps/Ramires/Oscar alongside him.

And if you've noticed, we can rarely get the ball upfield from the pivot. We need good passers from all round, not just from our attackers.

It's not only that we are playing the incorrect formation, but the fact that we have the most unbalanced squad in the league, we have a zillion number 10's and then hardly any midfielders. I can't say I'm too happy with the strike force or defence either.

What's your point? The claims were we cannot win trophies with Mikel and Rami which is not true since we already won trophies with them being integral players in the squad.

Kalou and Bosingwa were not crucial players in us winning the CL. They weren't even starters last season.

That's far too short sighted, I don't mean to go down this road again, but just because we won the Champions League (on a very rare and lucky occasion i might add) doesn't mean we should stick with those players. Ramires is a brutal footballer, first touch very poor, and his passing is poor also. You know my opinion on Mikel.

The main point is, if you actually think that this double pivot is good enough, you seriously need your eyes checked. What could even remotely impress anyone about our midfield? i can't even credit a single bloody thing, it's been the let down of the season, we have been so unbalanced and teams have took advantage of us so many times, simply because we have a huge weakness. Ramires-Mikel pivot is just not good enough, maybe for a midtable team sure, but i want to compete for the title here, and I'm sure we all do.

So if you can possibly believe that with those players we can be destined to have a great future then god help you mate.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

And if you've noticed, we can rarely get the ball upfield from the pivot. We need good passers from all round, not just from our attackers.

It's not only that we are playing the incorrect formation, but the fact that we have the most unbalanced squad in the league, we have a zillion number 10's and then hardly any midfielders. I can't say I'm too happy with the strike force or defence either.

That's far too short sighted, I don't mean to go down this road again, but just because we won the Champions League (on a very rare and lucky occasion i might add) doesn't mean we should stick with those players. Ramires is a brutal footballer, first touch very poor, and his passing is poor also. You know my opinion on Mikel.

The main point is, if you actually think that this double pivot is good enough, you seriously need your eyes checked. What could even remotely impress anyone about our midfield? i can't even credit a single bloody thing, it's been the let down of the season, we have been so unbalanced and teams have took advantage of us so many times, simply because we have a huge weakness. Ramires-Mikel pivot is just not good enough, maybe for a midtable team sure, but i want to compete for the title here, and I'm sure we all do.

So if you can possibly believe that with those players we can be destined to have a great future then god help you mate.

Of course they shouldn't be in the team just because we won the CL, but you can't say we can't win a trophy with them in the team when they've already helped us win the biggest one. It's basic logic really.

The pivot has been mostly terrible for many reasons. One of them is the fact that we don't have someone to partner Mikel there. Another is the type of players we have in our front four. The most important, imo, is in the 4-2-3-1 and the pivot itself that is yet convince me as the best formation we can use.

We've had many problems this season, and naturally everybody starts looking for scapegoats, but that does not mean that we should get rid of Mikel who has been crucial in every trophy we won the past 4 years.

[Clevemayer 764]

I personally do honestly belive we HAVE to do something on this position, but not only there, frome the back to the front you have a declineing Quality, not Footbalwise but Positionwise.

You need 2 kind of players in a double Pivot and we have only one in Mikel and Romeu and that's the point where my opinion differs from others. Romeu and Mikel are both classic DMs but with different Attribute to they're game.

Mikel is safe on the ball, has a good vision good physique and his passing is defo second to none, he has all ranges of passes but doesnt live up to them, if this is his fault or the fault of our attack is another point to discuss about. The only passing he lacks is maybe that deadly ball played through the defenses what he does very seldom, you can see them by Gündogan, Xavi etc. but this isn't what he is expected to do.

On the other hand you have Romeu whom is sadly injured but isn't as composed as Mikel in any manner, what he has is his stamnia and his drive to get a tackle in and run at players this is sometimes a joy to watch but sometimes he plays stupid passes, risky ones that fail to be placed where they're aimed at, this is big disatvantage on his account to me.

For me the bigger Problem is that creative Counterpart that you need there, you need someone like Xavi, Gündogan ALONG one of the other both mentioned and not to replace them. We are left outnumbered and Ramires and Lampard just dont have the ability to play alongside a pure DM, watch at Khedira and Alonso they played this nearly to perfection when it was running for them, xabi was the destroyer with a wide range of passing and Khedira was a slightly bit more creative haveing a go at the goal here and then and driveing forward, this is what we need the creative part of the DM and this is not MIKELs or ROMEUs fault, thats the point and if ppl just say, oh yeah Ramires cant stop the ball and is an awfull footballer but he runs 24 hours if needed, oh yeah Lampard is leaving our DM exploited and doesen't recive the balls doesn't influence the game in an creative manner but hey hes a legend it must be Mikels fault or what?

Clearly no, Mikel or Romeu, which one is needed for to play is to be decided game by game imho, both need an creative player alongside them so Mikel can do what he does best and retain possesion, close channels down get his creative Partner whom isnt on the edge of the box of you're opposition side when you've just retained the ball against 3 Attacking opponents and want to get the pressure lowred with an pass to somebody close to you whom has an better position, hee needs one that he can play with.

Mikel has class and he has shown it many occasions but for me he is especially in this double pivot very harsh critisized, because it si MAiNLY (not in every aspect) not his fault. Ramires cant receive the ball and drive it forward with creativity, because he plain isn't creative.

Lamps... well he may have the reativity but just isn't desceplined enough, I was pray'n for modric but we didn't get him, this is what we need.

If you think about replaceing Mikel with another DM what will you win, if his counterpart isn't existend and if the Attackers don't move so you can get you're biggest strengths (long range balls and triangle passes) played out?