Timo Werner

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Azul said:

He is our main striker, and if he is the guy to lead us to titles in the future then I expect to see a level of confidence and ruthlessness from him.

If we want to win the title, then we also need others to chip with the goals, not just Werner TBH. You look at our league goalscorers this season and the numbers...and it's kinda miserable.

Abraham - 6

Werner - 5 (still somehow 2nd on the list despite going 2 months without a goal!)

Jorginho - 5 (all penalties)

Zouma & Giroud - 4 (each on 4)

Mount - 3

Chilwell, CHO, Silva - 2 (each on 2)

Azpi, Pulisic, Ziyech, Havertz, Alonso, James - 1 (each on 1)

Never mind Werner, we're never going to win the league if the supporting casts - e.g. Abraham, Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech, Mount - are posting that kind of numbers. Gonna likely need at least 3 players to hit at least 15 goals each. 

[dimmas 123]

Is he gonna always play on the left side like this, untill he ends his career in blue shirt?

Probably this is his best position. But to think this position should be fill with player with high calibre or good skillset

Werner actually many times caught as very limited footballer mostly when he play out wide, he just got help by his speed and movement. But thats all from him, beside that, many aspect from his games/his actual capability is shockingly poor

Edited February 16, 2021 by dimmas

[Blue Armour 4,158]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

If we want to win the title, then we also need others to chip with the goals, not just Werner TBH. You look at our league goalscorers this season and the numbers...and it's kinda miserable.

Abraham - 6

Werner - 5 (still somehow 2nd on the list despite going 2 months without a goal!)

Jorginho - 5 (all penalties)

Zouma & Giroud - 4 (each on 4)

Mount - 3

Chilwell, CHO, Silva - 2 (each on 2)

Azpi, Pulisic, Ziyech, Havertz, Alonso, James - 1 (each on 1)

Never mind Werner, we're never going to win the league if the supporting casts - e.g. Abraham, Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech, Mount - are posting that kind of numbers. Gonna likely need at least 3 players to hit at least 15 goals each. 

I'm looking at Mount to chip in with more, especially with the position he now occupies.

Also, did you see the number of times in the Newcastle game that CHO passed to Kovacic to take a shot, instead of taking one himself  (and even when he had a much better angle)? 🤦‍♂️ 

Reece James on the other hand comes in and immediately looks to stick one in the net. 

I think more of our players need to be more bold and take more shots at goal and learn to take better shots for that matter (looking at Kovacic).

If you look at United's midfield, they have plenty of players who aren't afraid to take a pop at goal. Fernandes, Pogba, and even mediocre ones like Scott McTominay. Same with Marsenal. 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Blue Armour said:

I'm looking at Mount to chip in with more, especially with the position he now occupies.

Also, did you see the number of times in the Newcastle game that CHO passed to Kovacic to take a shot, instead of taking one himself  (and even when he had a much better angle)? 🤦‍♂️ 

Reece James on the other hand comes in and immediately looks to stick one in the net. 

I think more of our players need to be more bold and take more shots at goal and learn to take better shots for that matter (looking at Kovacic).

If you look at United's midfield, they have plenty of players who aren't afraid to take a pop at goal. Fernandes, Pogba, and even mediocre ones like Scott McTominay. Same with Marsenal. 

I guess this is the problem when we have so many players in their early 20s in the attacking areas. We are used to having finished articles in the attacking positions to score/create goals. Now, we have all these early 20s players and they aren't great (yet, hopefully) at creating/scoring regularly. Only Ziyech is at that peak age but even he is more of a creator than a goalscorer. 

[NikkiCFC 7,562]

33 minutes ago, Jason said:

We are used to having finished articles in the attacking positions to score/create goals. 

Yes, Willian 🤭

[Jase 43,479]

21 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Yes, Willian 🤭

He was the **** one of the good bunch. 

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

Nobody has anything to say about Werner? 🤣

Super delighted that he finally ended his goal drought and got the goal that he deserved. Said it before and will say it again, has looked so much better recently playing in his natural position. Even when he's not scoring, he's impacting games in other ways way more than in his previous winger role. Already contributed a number of assists and won 7 penalties this season. 

Also, any comparison with Morata and Torres is fucking stupid and lazy. Yes, Werner has missed chances but unlike those two, Werner has always kept going, kept getting at the end of chances, kept trying to impact games. He's never hid like those two and unlike Morata, he doesn't fall over easily, moan to referees about decisions going against him or moan to the media about how he's not loved/why no one is passing to him etc. If you have seen Werner's interviews, you can tell that he has a good mentality, attitude and humility about him. Those personal attributes can go a long way to helping a player become successful.

He played well but this is why I am concerned that he was struggling to put those sort of performances out under Frank. His role has changed a good bit but he is still predominantly playing from the left side and the amount of times he was on the outside whilst Alonso was inside the box shows this. His assist for Giroud’s goal was the sort of thing I was expecting more when he played under Frank as a winger also which is what I had meant in previous discussions we have had about affecting games in other ways and adapting to his position. Not as if he wasn’t capable of that months ago, taking people on, slowing them down and then accelerating past them. Although confidence maybe didn’t help him but still felt he could have done more (most could have though to be fair). Its not exactly unfair to have expected more when you see his performances in the last few games where he still has a lot of actions coming in from the left hand side.

There is more of a structure in place to get the ball from our defence into attacking positions so I hope this is the kick start of his season for him now and fingers crossed it is as his goals and other contributions will be vital to how our season goes I feel.

Still needs to be more clinical though he could have scored before his goal from Alonso’s header, he should be anticipating where that is going better and being much better positioned, the likes of Kane, Aguero, Cavani, Salah, Mane etc if they were in the same situation they’d of been in a slightly better position where they didnt have to stretch and it would of been a goal IMO. 

Now, with Tammy injured by the looks of it, perhaps he will play more centrally for a while as I cant see us relying on Giroud every week. Also Timo needs to be a bit more street smart physically he isn’t necessarily going to get every little foul like the Lewis one where he’s taken the ball off him and caught him by accident with his arm but I would imagine next season he will be more used to it. Last night not the first game, he needs to get on with it at times when he doesn’t get the decision.

And aye anyone calling him Morata/Torres its a lazy comparison, although he has missed big chances but unlike them he has constantly been trying to keep getting into good positions and doing other things.

Edited February 16, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

His assist for Giroud’s goal was the sort of thing I was expecting more when he played under Frank as a winger also which is what I had meant in previous discussions we have had about affecting games in other ways and adapting to his position. Not as if he wasn’t capable of that months ago, taking people on, slowing them down and then accelerating past them.

The difference between now and then is that Werner is playing a lot higher and operating in the half spaces, allowing him better opportunities to attack the space in behind while also not have many players to beat. Under Lampard, he was playing as a winger and operating in wider/deeper areas. Also has less emphasis on defensive duties and can focus on going forward. Our passing then was also slow and ponderous, thus giving the opposition so much time to get back into shape and deny the space that Werner likes to get into. Put that altogether, he has to dribble past players and beat them - which we know it's not his strength - and that's different from simply beating players for pace like he did yesterday. Also has more room and space to do that against Newcastle. And not to mention, it also helps that we have much more coordinated movement with the players under Tuchel than Lampard. Previously, it looked as though as the players were just moving into random positions and not creating space as well as options for the others. 

[Azul 1,615]

7 hours ago, Jason said:

If we want to win the title, then we also need others to chip with the goals, not just Werner TBH. You look at our league goalscorers this season and the numbers...and it's kinda miserable.

Abraham - 6

Werner - 5 (still somehow 2nd on the list despite going 2 months without a goal!)

Jorginho - 5 (all penalties)

Zouma & Giroud - 4 (each on 4)

Mount - 3

Chilwell, CHO, Silva - 2 (each on 2)

Azpi, Pulisic, Ziyech, Havertz, Alonso, James - 1 (each on 1)

Never mind Werner, we're never going to win the league if the supporting casts - e.g. Abraham, Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech, Mount - are posting that kind of numbers. Gonna likely need at least 3 players to hit at least 15 goals each. 

Ofcourse but Werner is our star striker that we have signed for 50m and he got the most opportunities to score if you look at the amount of goals created for him. Add context to the stats, ofcourse he is second on that list when he get's so many opportunities.

Ziyech, and Havertz haven't been fit for most of the season so I don't count them. I do agree with Mount and Abraham. They don't contribute enough to the team. However if we're being real, Timo missed way too many opportunities.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Azul

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Azul said:

Ofcourse but Werner is our star striker that we have signed for 50m and he got the most opportunities to score if you look at the amount of goals created for him.

Ziyech, and Havertz haven't been fit for most of the season so I don't count them. I do agree with Mount and Abraham. They don't contribute enough to the team. However if we're being real, Timo missed way too many opportunities.

Am not excusing Werner for his misses. Just stating facts. All title winners have at least a few players hitting at least 15 goals or even 10 at the very least and of course Werner should be one of them. And doesn't matter Ziyech and Havertz haven't been fit this season. We're not going to win it anyway. But going forward, if we want to win it, then they also need to produce. 

5 minutes ago, Azul said:

Add context to the stats, ofcourse he is second on that list when he get's so many opportunities.

By saying "still somehow 2nd on the list despite going 2 months without a goal", I meant it to illustrate how bad the others have been. Abraham is just only 1 goal ahead and no one else has even overtaken Werner during his drought (Jorginho did before yesterday but all his goals are penalties). It's not as if the likes of CHO, Pulisic, Mount do not get chances to score. 

[Azul 1,615]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

Am not excusing Werner for his misses. Just stating facts. All title winners have at least a few players hitting at least 15 goals or even 10 at the very least and of course Werner should be one of them. And doesn't matter Ziyech and Havertz haven't been fit this season. We're not going to win it anyway. But going forward, if we want to win it, then they also need to produce. 

By saying "still somehow 2nd on the list despite going 2 months without a goal", I meant it to illustrate how bad the others have been. Abraham is just only 1 goal ahead and no one else has even overtaken Werner during his drought (Jorginho did before yesterday but all his goals are penalties). It's not as if the likes of CHO, Pulisic, Mount do not get chances to score. 

Ofcourse it matters that Ziyech and Havertz weren't fit. You can't judge them because they haven't played enough games, does that make sense? Whereas Timo played most of the games for us besides Mount. When fit, ofcourse they need to produce, however Havertz's goalcontributions is almost the same as Mount even though he played three times less games than Mount did. I'm confident Havertz can do the job when he is fully fit, suffering from heavy covid symptoms is no joke so I'll give him a pass. Ziyech on the other hand has been handed many injuries, and following him at Ajax he isn't known for being injury prone. Still the fact remains that he hasn't played enough, so it's silly to judge his goalcontributions.

I fully agree with Abraham, Pulisic and Mount. All three are heavily overrated when it comes to how people talk about them. People rave about Mount, however he doesn't contribute enough when it comes to being precise in the final third. Abraham is just.... let me not start lol. Pulisic is incredibly off form, he looks like a different player compared to last season. He can't be trusted because of his inconsistencies and injuries.

The reason why I'm judging Timo the most though, is because we signed him for big money specifically to score goals. He got a lot of chances and missed them in horrible fashion. Even though, Mount and the rest have also missed chances, the volume they get is much much less. He also has no excuses when it comes to his fitness, he played most of the games this season.

[NikkiCFC 7,562]

18 minutes ago, Azul said:

however Havertz's goalcontributions is almost the same as Mount even though he played three times less games than Mount did. 

Actually he has more. Kai 5 goals and 5 assists (all open play). And Mount 4 goals and 5 assists (3 corners). 

In the PL they both did very little in terms of numbers. 

Kai 4 from 5 goals scored against 2nd and 4th division clubs. Mount if you take away corners and teams that will get relegated is on 0 and 0 😔 People made excuses how he is a DM or something like that but now he is one of the 3 most offensive players on the pitch. He absolutely has to deliver in the final 3rd or he will lose his place. I mean it's just a matter of time before Kai or Puli or Hakim take his place because they are more likely to deliver and all have been shit last couple of months. Mount deserves to play over them now but in the long run he will lose. I mean look at Willian or Oscar, they were both having season with around 10 goals and 10 assists but were never good enough for us. Can Mount ever be better than that?  Again, he is no longer MF but one of the 3 most attacking players in the team. Now everything changes. 

And funny stat is that Kai has more open play assists than Mount in less than 1500 min played for Chelsea. Mount played more than 6000 minutes. 

For Kai it's starting next season. I absolutely expect 20 goals per season at least and 15+ assists. 

[Tomo 21,681]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Actually he has more. Kai 5 goals and 5 assists (all open play). And Mount 4 goals and 5 assists (3 corners). 

In the PL they both did very little in terms of numbers. 

Kai 4 from 5 goals scored against 2nd and 4th division clubs. Mount if you take away corners and teams that will get relegated is on 0 and 0 😔 People made excuses how he is a DM or something like that but now he is one of the 3 most offensive players on the pitch. He absolutely has to deliver in the final 3rd or he will lose his place. I mean it's just a matter of time before Kai or Puli or Hakim take his place because they are more likely to deliver and all have been shit last couple of months. Mount deserves to play over them now but in the long run he will lose. I mean look at Willian or Oscar, they were both having season with around 10 goals and 10 assists but were never good enough for us. Can Mount ever be better than that?  Again, he is no longer MF but one of the 3 most attacking players in the team. Now everything changes. 

And funny stat is that Kai has more open play assists than Mount in less than 1500 min played for Chelsea. Mount played more than 6000 minutes. 

For Kai it's starting next season. I absolutely expect 20 goals per season at least and 15+ assists. 

If we're going down the route of cheapining goals on opposition and assists then the same applies to 4 of Havertz 5 goals and 3 of his assists. 

Also last time i checked (December time) he was 4th in the league on chances created (and two of the three above him have their teams entire system's tailored for their benefit) and that's bigger barometer of individual creativity as that doesn't require someone else doing their job to go on record!

Edited February 16, 2021 by Tomo

[Azul 1,615]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

If we're going down the route of cheapining goals on opposition and assists then the same applies to 4 of Havertz 5 goals and 3 of his assists. 

Also last time i checked (December time) he was 4th in the league on chances created (and two of the three above him have their teams entire system's tailored for their benefit) and that's bigger barometer of individual creativity as that doesn't require someone else doing their job to go on record!

It's not cheaping goal contributions when someone's main source of creativity is through set pieces. Mount has to do better in open play, right now he is better than Ziyech and Havertz. However both have played less and have their fitness issues. We all know that Havertz and Ziyech are far more talented players technically. Once they're fit and hit form it's game over for Mount in my humble opinion.

[Tomo 21,681]

17 minutes ago, Azul said:

It's not cheaping goal contributions when someone's main source of creativity is through set pieces. Mount has to do better in open play, right now he is better than Ziyech and Havertz. However both have played less and have their fitness issues. We all know that Havertz and Ziyech are far more talented players technically. Once they're fit and hit form it's game over for Mount in my humble opinion.

I was responding more to Nikki than you.

The thing with Mount is while he will likely never be a star man himself he has attributes that are complimentary in playing with the stars, in that respect although not the very same position i see him similar to Pedro who has played with Messi and Hazard and not only fitted in but brought the best out of both. If anything Havertz and/or Ziyech in the team will make the need for someone like him or Gallagher even more important as we'll need someone to bring the level of workrate that those 2 won't.

Furthermore, even if he was to get a reduced role that will still mean lots of gametime as Tuchel swears by rotation as we saw last night.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Tomo

[Azul 1,615]

3 hours ago, Tomo said:

I was responding more to Nikki than you.

The thing with Mount is while he will likely never be a star man himself he has attributes that are complimentary in playing with the stars, in that respect although not the very same position i see him similar to Pedro who has played with Messi and Hazard and not only fitted in but brought the best out of both. If anything Havertz and/or Ziyech in the team will make the need for someone like him or Gallagher even more important as we'll need someone to bring the level of workrate that those 2 won't.

Furthermore, even if he was to get a reduced role that will still mean lots of gametime as Tuchel swears by rotation as we saw last night.

I'm fine with Mount as a squad player, maybe even a first team player if he improves. I rate his attitude and workrate, however it stops there. To compare him to Pedro is not fair, seeing as Pedro had good goal contributions stats himself. Pedro in the 16/17 season, has had 13 goals and 12 assists and he was rotated with Willian a lot. Prime Pedro in Barcelona had 22 goals and 13 assists in 2010/11. Mount last year had 8 goals and 6 assists even though he started almost every game. Mount is young and shouldn't be compared to Pedro and for now he's not ready to be a starter in our team and the stats suggests so. Gallagher on the other hand doesn't even play that well for West Brom so he definitely is not Chelsea material as of now.

What we need are inside forwards that are direct and precise when it comes to finishing or giving assists. Players that have goalcontributions that is in the double digits when it comes to both goals and assists. We shouldn't lower our standards as a Chelsea fan, just because some players came from the academy. If they're good enough they should be a starter, if not they're good as a squad player. 

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

49 minutes ago, Azul said:

I'm fine with Mount as a squad player, maybe even a first team player if he improves. I rate his attitude and workrate, however it stops there. To compare him to Pedro is not fair, seeing as Pedro had good goal contributions stats himself. Pedro in the 16/17 season, has had 13 goals and 12 assists and he was rotated with Willian a lot. Prime Pedro in Barcelona had 22 goals and 13 assists in 2010/11. Mount last year had 8 goals and 6 assists even though he started almost every game. Mount is young and shouldn't be compared to Pedro and for now he's not ready to be a starter in our team and the stats suggests so. Gallagher on the other hand doesn't even play that well for West Brom so he definitely is not Chelsea material as of now.

What we need are inside forwards that are direct and precise when it comes to finishing or giving assists. Players that have goalcontributions that is in the double digits when it comes to both goals and assists. We shouldn't lower our standards as a Chelsea fan, just because some players came from the academy. If they're good enough they should be a starter, if not they're good as a squad player. 

He didnt mean the stats, he meant his function more in a team, which I mean under Tuchel already you can see how important he is at linking the midfield and attack, bringing the likes of other players such Callum and Timo into the game. Even his stats last year, considering Lampard played him for about 7 or 8 weeks in a row when he was playing poorly and probably burnt him out a bit in terms of lack of rotation didn’t help, they aren’t that bad for a first season in the PL. I get there was a long period he didnt score or assist but again, overplayed and not taken out of the firing line which those games from that period has probably given the impression hes a “poor footballer” or “not good enough” to some people.

And even then, I mean comparing someones stats who was arguably a world class player or as close to one without being one in his peak years (Pedro), in one of the best teams in football history full of genuine world class players, would be unfair to anyone. Yet alone Mason who’s only playing his second season of PL football. Would never stand a chance. Be may as well comparing him to Messi when he scored the 90 odd goals just to make it fairer...

[Azul 1,615]

59 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

He didnt mean the stats, he meant his function more in a team, which I mean under Tuchel already you can see how important he is at linking the midfield and attack, bringing the likes of other players such Callum and Timo into the game. Even his stats last year, considering Lampard played him for about 7 or 8 weeks in a row when he was playing poorly and probably burnt him out a bit in terms of lack of rotation didn’t help, they aren’t that bad for a first season in the PL. I get there was a long period he didnt score or assist but again, overplayed and not taken out of the firing line which those games from that period has probably given the impression hes a “poor footballer” or “not good enough” to some people.

And even then, I mean comparing someones stats who was arguably a world class player or as close to one without being one in his peak years (Pedro), in one of the best teams in football history full of genuine world class players, would be unfair to anyone. Yet alone Mason who’s only playing his second season of PL football. Would never stand a chance. Be may as well comparing him to Messi when he scored the 90 odd goals just to make it fairer...

Whenever I hear the excuse of Mount not delivering goal contributions because he is being used too much is silly. Why didn't he contribute in so many games befor he got burnt out? If you watch other teams than Chelsea then you'll see that certain players play more than Mount and still consistenly contribute goals or assists. Look at Bruno, Gundogan, Calhanoglu, Milinkovic Savic, Maddison, Grealish, Llorente and many many more. These are big names and well established players and our standards should be to have such midfielder if we want success next season.  Listen I'm not a Mount hater and as I said in my previous post if you read it: I really do appreciate his attitude. He might develop into a very good player in the future. However if we want to challenge for the title challenge next season, then he must contribute much more, because what he is doing right now with the amount of games he's getting is simply not good enough. Look at the facts and numbers, his goal contributions is simply not that of a top level attacker/midfielder.

By the way I didn't compare him to Pedro first, @Tomo did and if you read better then you'll see that I stated that comparing him to Pedro is silly. Did you even read my conversation with @Tomo? Embarrassing to claim like I was the one that started the comparison. If you want to join a discussion next time, please read carefully what we're discussing about in detail next time. It's very annoying to repeat stuff even though it's right there for you to read.

However, I still believe that our standards as Chelsea Football Club should be to have attackers/midfielders that contribute like a Pedro, or Hazard etc. Only then will we truly become a big title challenging football club again. Mount is good for now, but once Havertz and Ziyech are fit and in form I believe they're more talented and precise in the final third.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Azul