Jump to content
Join Talk Chelsea and join in with the discussions! Click Here

11. Timo Werner


Jason
 Share
Followers 8

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

If we're going down the route of cheapining goals on opposition and assists then the same applies to 4 of Havertz 5 goals and 3 of his assists. 

Also last time i checked (December time) he was 4th in the league on chances created (and two of the three above him have their teams entire system's tailored for their benefit) and that's bigger barometer of individual creativity as that doesn't require someone else doing their job to go on record!

It's not cheaping goal contributions when someone's main source of creativity is through set pieces. Mount has to do better in open play, right now he is better than Ziyech and Havertz. However both have played less and have their fitness issues. We all know that Havertz and Ziyech are far more talented players technically. Once they're fit and hit form it's game over for Mount in my humble opinion.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Werner has never been the most clinical of players. Last season in the Bundesliga he recorded 20 big chances missed, only second to Lewandowski at 24. That said, it comes with the territory. He's

Really taking the piss now 

A bit of class by RB Leipzig by posting the 'one step beyond' and now saying "Look after him for us, we will be rooting for Frank's young guns next season" Classy as fuck

Posted Images

17 minutes ago, Azul said:

It's not cheaping goal contributions when someone's main source of creativity is through set pieces. Mount has to do better in open play, right now he is better than Ziyech and Havertz. However both have played less and have their fitness issues. We all know that Havertz and Ziyech are far more talented players technically. Once they're fit and hit form it's game over for Mount in my humble opinion.

I was responding more to Nikki than you.

The thing with Mount is while he will likely never be a star man himself he has attributes that are complimentary in playing with the stars, in that respect although not the very same position i see him similar to Pedro who has played with Messi and Hazard and not only fitted in but brought the best out of both. If anything Havertz and/or Ziyech in the team will make the need for someone like him or Gallagher even more important as we'll need someone to bring the level of workrate that those 2 won't.

Furthermore, even if he was to get a reduced role that will still mean lots of gametime as Tuchel swears by rotation as we saw last night.

Edited by Tomo
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tomo said:

I was responding more to Nikki than you.

The thing with Mount is while he will likely never be a star man himself he has attributes that are complimentary in playing with the stars, in that respect although not the very same position i see him similar to Pedro who has played with Messi and Hazard and not only fitted in but brought the best out of both. If anything Havertz and/or Ziyech in the team will make the need for someone like him or Gallagher even more important as we'll need someone to bring the level of workrate that those 2 won't.

Furthermore, even if he was to get a reduced role that will still mean lots of gametime as Tuchel swears by rotation as we saw last night.

I'm fine with Mount as a squad player, maybe even a first team player if he improves. I rate his attitude and workrate, however it stops there. To compare him to Pedro is not fair, seeing as Pedro had good goal contributions stats himself. Pedro in the 16/17 season, has had 13 goals and 12 assists and he was rotated with Willian a lot. Prime Pedro in Barcelona had 22 goals and 13 assists in 2010/11. Mount last year had 8 goals and 6 assists even though he started almost every game. Mount is young and shouldn't be compared to Pedro and for now he's not ready to be a starter in our team and the stats suggests so. Gallagher on the other hand doesn't even play that well for West Brom so he definitely is not Chelsea material as of now.

What we need are inside forwards that are direct and precise when it comes to finishing or giving assists. Players that have goalcontributions that is in the double digits when it comes to both goals and assists. We shouldn't lower our standards as a Chelsea fan, just because some players came from the academy. If they're good enough they should be a starter, if not they're good as a squad player. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Azul said:

I'm fine with Mount as a squad player, maybe even a first team player if he improves. I rate his attitude and workrate, however it stops there. To compare him to Pedro is not fair, seeing as Pedro had good goal contributions stats himself. Pedro in the 16/17 season, has had 13 goals and 12 assists and he was rotated with Willian a lot. Prime Pedro in Barcelona had 22 goals and 13 assists in 2010/11. Mount last year had 8 goals and 6 assists even though he started almost every game. Mount is young and shouldn't be compared to Pedro and for now he's not ready to be a starter in our team and the stats suggests so. Gallagher on the other hand doesn't even play that well for West Brom so he definitely is not Chelsea material as of now.

What we need are inside forwards that are direct and precise when it comes to finishing or giving assists. Players that have goalcontributions that is in the double digits when it comes to both goals and assists. We shouldn't lower our standards as a Chelsea fan, just because some players came from the academy. If they're good enough they should be a starter, if not they're good as a squad player. 

He didnt mean the stats, he meant his function more in a team, which I mean under Tuchel already you can see how important he is at linking the midfield and attack, bringing the likes of other players such Callum and Timo into the game. Even his stats last year, considering Lampard played him for about 7 or 8 weeks in a row when he was playing poorly and probably burnt him out a bit in terms of lack of rotation didn’t help, they aren’t that bad for a first season in the PL. I get there was a long period he didnt score or assist but again, overplayed and not taken out of the firing line which those games from that period has probably given the impression hes a “poor footballer” or “not good enough” to some people.

And even then, I mean comparing someones stats who was arguably a world class player or as close to one without being one in his peak years (Pedro), in one of the best teams in football history full of genuine world class players, would be unfair to anyone. Yet alone Mason who’s only playing his second season of PL football. Would never stand a chance. Be may as well comparing him to Messi when he scored the 90 odd goals just to make it fairer...

Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

He didnt mean the stats, he meant his function more in a team, which I mean under Tuchel already you can see how important he is at linking the midfield and attack, bringing the likes of other players such Callum and Timo into the game. Even his stats last year, considering Lampard played him for about 7 or 8 weeks in a row when he was playing poorly and probably burnt him out a bit in terms of lack of rotation didn’t help, they aren’t that bad for a first season in the PL. I get there was a long period he didnt score or assist but again, overplayed and not taken out of the firing line which those games from that period has probably given the impression hes a “poor footballer” or “not good enough” to some people.

And even then, I mean comparing someones stats who was arguably a world class player or as close to one without being one in his peak years (Pedro), in one of the best teams in football history full of genuine world class players, would be unfair to anyone. Yet alone Mason who’s only playing his second season of PL football. Would never stand a chance. Be may as well comparing him to Messi when he scored the 90 odd goals just to make it fairer...

Whenever I hear the excuse of Mount not delivering goal contributions because he is being used too much is silly. Why didn't he contribute in so many games befor he got burnt out? If you watch other teams than Chelsea then you'll see that certain players play more than Mount and still consistenly contribute goals or assists. Look at Bruno, Gundogan, Calhanoglu, Milinkovic Savic, Maddison, Grealish, Llorente and many many more. These are big names and well established players and our standards should be to have such midfielder if we want success next season.  Listen I'm not a Mount hater and as I said in my previous post if you read it: I really do appreciate his attitude. He might develop into a very good player in the future. However if we want to challenge for the title challenge next season, then he must contribute much more, because what he is doing right now with the amount of games he's getting is simply not good enough. Look at the facts and numbers, his goal contributions is simply not that of a top level attacker/midfielder.

By the way I didn't compare him to Pedro first, @Tomo did and if you read better then you'll see that I stated that comparing him to Pedro is silly. Did you even read my conversation with @Tomo? Embarrassing to claim like I was the one that started the comparison. If you want to join a discussion next time, please read carefully what we're discussing about in detail next time. It's very annoying to repeat stuff even though it's right there for you to read.

However, I still believe that our standards as Chelsea Football Club should be to have attackers/midfielders that contribute like a Pedro, or Hazard etc. Only then will we truly become a big title challenging football club again. Mount is good for now, but once Havertz and Ziyech are fit and in form I believe they're more talented and precise in the final third.

Edited by Azul
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Azul said:

Whenever I hear the excuse of Mount not delivering goal contributions because he is being used too much is silly. Why didn't he contribute in so many games befor he got burnt out? If you watch other teams than Chelsea then you'll see that certain players play more than Mount and still consistenly contribute goals or assists. Look at Bruno, Gundogan, Calhanoglu, Milinkovic Savic, Maddison, Grealish, Llorente and many many more. These are big names and well established players and our standards should be to have such midfielder if we want success next season.  Listen I'm not a Mount hater and as I said in my previous post if you read it: I really do appreciate his attitude. He might develop into a very good player in the future. However if we want to challenge for the title challenge next season, then he must contribute much more, because what he is doing right now with the amount of games he's getting is simply not good enough. Look at the facts and numbers, his goal contributions is simply not that of a top level attacker/midfielder.

By the way I didn't compare him to Pedro first, @Tomo did and if you read better then you'll see that I stated that comparing him to Pedro is silly. Did you even read my conversation with @Tomo? Embarrassing to claim like I was the one that started the comparison. If you want to join a discussion next time, please read carefully what we're discussing about in detail next time. It's very annoying to repeat stuff even though it's right there for you to read.

However, I still believe that our standards as Chelsea Football Club should be to have attackers/midfielders that contribute like a Pedro, or Hazard etc. Only then will we truly become a big title challenging football club again. Mount is good for now, next season is a different story.

You obviously didn’t read my first sentence then. I was saying with regards to Mount’s role in the team, I think Tomo meant his actual function, not stats. You brought the stats in to the conversation, not me, not Tomo but never mind. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

You obviously didn’t read my first sentence then. I was saying with regards to Mount’s role in the team, I think Tomo meant his actual function, not stats. You brought the stats in to the conversation, not me, not Tomo but never mind. 

I read it and if his "function" doesn't contribute to anything then what is the point? The amount of times I've seen him make a bad decision in the final third is unacceptable. Compare it to any other top club in the world and look at how their attackers/midfielders respond to similar situations in the final third and you'll see the difference. I'm a Chelsea fan, but I am also a football fan at heart. Looking at different leagues and many top attacking players is how I made my judgement on Mount.

Stats are key when you're an attacking midfielder in this system. As a club you should expect to see results, and by results I mean goal and assists.

Edited by Azul
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Actually he has more. Kai 5 goals and 5 assists (all open play). And Mount 4 goals and 5 assists (3 corners). 

In the PL they both did very little in terms of numbers. 

Kai 4 from 5 goals scored against 2nd and 4th division clubs. Mount if you take away corners and teams that will get relegated is on 0 and 0 😔 People made excuses how he is a DM or something like that but now he is one of the 3 most offensive players on the pitch. He absolutely has to deliver in the final 3rd or he will lose his place. I mean it's just a matter of time before Kai or Puli or Hakim take his place because they are more likely to deliver and all have been shit last couple of months. Mount deserves to play over them now but in the long run he will lose. I mean look at Willian or Oscar, they were both having season with around 10 goals and 10 assists but were never good enough for us. Can Mount ever be better than that?  Again, he is no longer MF but one of the 3 most attacking players in the team. Now everything changes. 

And funny stat is that Kai has more open play assists than Mount in less than 1500 min played for Chelsea. Mount played more than 6000 minutes. 

For Kai it's starting next season. I absolutely expect 20 goals per season at least and 15+ assists. 

Obviously racking up assists from set pieces doesn't mean that player is creative. However, we used to complain we don't score enough from set pieces because we had people like Willian taking them and failing to beat the first man. Now we are scoring a few more set pieces because we have a better taker in Mount and people are trying to devalue it. We can't have it both ways here. 

Also, is stats just everything to you in football? On paper, sure, Havertz and Ziyech would get into the team ahead of Mount because of their talent and quality at the moment and whatever numbers they have posted so far but will their inclusion ensure that the team would still be balanced, that they can function properly? It's not always possible to just slap all the talented players into the same XI. This isn't Football Manager or FIFA.

Moreover, while Mount may not be blessed with the talent of Havertz or Ziyech right now but that doesn't mean he can't improve and get better in his own right. I mean, who on earth thought Lampard would turn out to be the player that we all saw when he was only 22 years old? Lampard wasn't the most talented players around, he was born with natural talent like some other players but through hard work and dedication, he became one of the best in the world. Would have been interesting to see the fans' reaction on social media had it been big back then. Mount seems like someone with the right mindset and dedication to improve himself and as long as he stays on the right track, there's no reason why he can't be great. Not every great player out there is born with talent. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jason said:

Obviously racking up assists from set pieces doesn't mean that player is creative. However, we used to complain we don't score enough from set pieces because we had people like Willian taking them and failing to beat the first man. Now we are scoring a few more set pieces because we have a better taker in Mount and people are trying to devalue it. We can't have it both ways here. 

I am not trying to devalue it. But we spoke about creativity and set pieces does not tell anything. I mean we can even argue should Mount be our set piece taker. Silva goal came after Ziyech set piece and one of the Zouma goals after corners came after Chilwell taking it. So they have 1 assist from set piece and Mount has 3 but he took probably ten times more set pieces. So they have better percentage. I do not remember Emerson taking any corners but he also has assist from corner last season. Mount is good set piece taker, definitely better than Willian. This is no issue but when we count assists it is worth mentioning that his assists are mostly from set pieces.

7 hours ago, Jason said:

Also, is stats just everything to you in football?

Ofc not. And is depending on position. If Kova plays every game like last one he can finish the season with zero goal contributions there would be no issue. He had 2 great passes that should resulted with goals but did not and it is not his fault. I really do not remember Mount making those passes, maybe once in ten games. He is apparently high on key passes but does anyone have that impression? They must be counting set pieces or something.

Zero issues with Mount, I look at him with different eyes now when we have Tuchel. I called Puli and Ziyach shit today because of their performances lately and that is way worse then whatever I said about Mason last couple of months. He is outperforming mentioned guys and deserves to play over them at the moment. I just predicted what will happen in the future because I do not think he has in his locker to deliver regularly in the final 3rd. In this new formation like I said he is one of the 3 most offensive players, we have 3 defenders, 2 wing backs, and 2 midfielders who are all not likely to score so who is going to score if not those guys up front? I am sure when Thomas picks a team he do not choose attacking players because of the balance. Mount is now playing because Kai is out and is better than Hakim and Pulisic at the moment. Pochettino just played Kean, Mbappe and Icardi against Barca. He picked them because he wanted goals and has 7 players behind to provide balance just like we have.

It does not matter the name. Olie, Puli, Kai, Timo, Tammy whoever plays up front... If they have a couple of quite games in a row and are not helping us to score they should be benched.

For the next games Timo is obvy number one and lets see who Tuchel picks for 2 other positions. I have full trust in him.

 

 

Edited by NikkiCFC
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

I am not trying to devalue it. But we spoke about creativity and set pieces does not tell anything. I mean we can even argue should Mount be our set piece taker. Silva goal came after Ziyech set piece and one of the Zouma goals after corners came after Chilwell taking it. So they have 1 assist from set piece and Mount has 3 but he took probably ten times more set pieces. So they have better percentage. I do not remember Emerson taking any corners but he also has assist from corner last season. Mount is good set piece taker, definitely better than Willian. This is no issue but when we count assists it is worth mentioning that his assists are mostly from set pieces.

Ofc not. And is depending on position. If Kova plays every game like last one he can finish the season with zero goal contributions there would be no issue. He had 2 great passes that should resulted with goals but did not and it is not his fault. I really do not remember Mount making those passes, maybe once in ten games. He is apparently high on key passes but does anyone have that impression? They must be counting set pieces or something.

Zero issues with Mount, I look at him with different eyes now when we have Tuchel. I called Puli and Ziyach shit today because of their performances lately and that is way worse then whatever I said about Mason last couple of months. He is outperforming mentioned guys and deserves to play over them at the moment. I just predicted what will happen in the future because I do not think he has in his locker to deliver regularly in the final 3rd. In this new formation like I said he is one of the 3 most offensive players, we have 3 defenders, 2 wing backs, and 2 midfielders who are all not likely to score so who is going to score if not those guys up front? I am sure when Thomas picks a team he do not choose attacking players because of the balance. Mount is now playing because Kai is out and is better than Hakim and Pulisic at the moment. Pochettino just played Kean, Mbappe and Icardi against Barca. He picked them because he wanted goals and has 7 players behind to provide balance just like we have.

It does not matter the name. Olie, Puli, Kai, Timo, Tammy whoever plays up front... If they have a couple of quite games in a row and are not helping us to score they should be benched.

For the next games Timo is obvy number one and lets see who Tuchel picks for 2 other positions. I have full trust in him.

But when you made that post, it wasn't about creativity. You simply started comparing the numbers and breaking them down. And you look at Mount differently now? You have been making this very same point about him ever since the start of last season. 

You used PSG as an example because Pochettino played Kean, Mbappe and Icardi against Barcelona - one of the worse Barcelona ever let's not forget - but then, he also had a strong looking midfield behind them to balance things out, a bit like with Liverpool. Can the same, say, be said about us with our midfield of Jorginho and Kovacic? As decent as they can be on the ball, we all know they are hopeless without it and when it comes to defensive action. And on the flip side, you also had Griezmann, Messi and Dembele as the front 3 for Barcelona and look what happened.

We can talk about creativity, attacking numbers and all that till the cows come home but Mount and Ziyech each bring something different to the table. If Tuchel is really all about attacking players, he could have so easily just played Ziyech - or even Pulisic - and played them into form instead of Mount. Take Werner as an example. While he has looked better recently under Tuchel, it didn't fully click for him immediately but Tuchel stuck with him - partly also because what he brings to the table tactically - and look what has happened. 

And also, worth noting that Ziyech wasn't signed by Tuchel. You gotta wonder if he fancies him much, especially with some rumors going around about Ziyech wanting to leave in the summer. This is probably me reading too much into it but Tuchel's recent comments about Ziyech also seem less enamoured compared to what he said about the others. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

@NikkiCFC I can't remember where you said "what will happen to Werner if we buy Haaland" but here's what Tuchel said about Werner's role/position after Monday's game...

https://www.football.london/Chelsea-fc/news/thomas-tuchel-ziyech-pulisic-werner-19855534

"We know he likes to drift out a little bit to the wing, between the full-back and centre-back," Tuchel told Sky Sports. "So we try to bring him into these positions he likes to play next to a guy who is a reference in the middle like Tammy and Oli.

"We wanted to escape the pressure in the half positions today so we played Mason on the right and Marcos (Alonso) more inside to keep Timo stay in a high position and use his speed. It worked well in the first half, the second half lacked precision."

"I do think he can also play as another striker, maybe sometimes as a number nine if he is clever enough with his speed and his runs. But his favourite position and his biggest strengths are maybe if he can drift out a little to the left side."

As said before, IF we do get Haaland (HA!), it'll be a bigger question for Abraham. Playing with 2 strikers - 2 different ones - isn't new for us considering we played with Drogba and Anelka in the same XI all those years ago and Werner himself has often played with another striker (e.g. Poulsen, Abraham, Giroud) in his career so far.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another really bad game from him. As I already stated in the matchday thread his technique is really underwhelming, he can´t win 1vs1 duels and his passing is midtable level. Without space infront of him he is basically useless, most of his goals in Germany were scored because of Leipzigs great counter attacks. If his general play (runs, passing etc.) would be better, I could overlook his lack of goals, but lets be honest, what does he really offer to the team? He was praised on here when he got that lucky penalty call (his bad touch would have let him down again if the keeper didn´t rush out) against Sheffield, but I personally expect more from him. 

Apart from his well taken goal in the cup against Spurs, his goals so far only came against sides that are average at best. 

Tuchel slated Callum, but I still felt he showed more intent and had a better game than Werner for example. Our attacking play was more fluid when he came on. 

I still hope he somehow can turn it around, but I have my doubts and that being said I don´t rate him as a good footballer. 

Edited by Beigl
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Beigl said:

Another really bad game from him. As I already stated in the matchday thread his technique is really underwhelming, he can´t win 1vs1 duels and his passing is midtable level. Without space infront of him he is basically useless, most of his goals in Germany were scored because of Leipzigs great counter attacks. If his general play (runs, passing etc.) would be better, I could overlook his lack of goals, but lets be honest, what does he really offer to the team? He was praised on here when he got that lucky penalty call (his bad touch would have let him down again if the keeper didn´t rush out) against Sheffield, but I personally expect more from him. 

Apart from his well taken goal in the cup against Spurs, his goals so far only came against sides that are average at best. 

Tuchel slated Callum, but I still felt he showed more intent and had a better game than Werner for example. Our attacking play was more fluid when he came on. 

I still hope he somehow can turn it around, but I have my doubts and that being said I don´t rate him as a good footballer. 

I could not agree more. 

I now cannot shake the feeling that he is not good enough and will never be going enough. His passing pisses me off the most. I swear reece James is getter at dribbling past people. Unless he plays a suicidal team that gives him lots of space *and* he gets through balls on  platter hes a waste of space. 

I dont like saying it because it seems he's a really great guy, great character so I still wish him the best. 

I just don't want to start him when people are fit lol. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I now just wish Werner had gone to Liverpool instead. Would probably have been better for his career development to play under Klopp and in a settled squad at Liverpool instead. Better to see than him playing in this mess of a club and then see all these weekly **** takes about him.

tenor.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jason said:

Honestly, I now just wish Werner had gone to Liverpool instead. Would probably have been better for his career development to play under Klopp and in a settled squad at Liverpool instead. Better to see than him playing in this mess of a club and then see all these weekly **** takes about him.

tenor.gif

Looking at Liverpool right now....would Werner even play for them?

 

Their top 3 is set in stone most days, and even behind them I dont think hes better than Shaqiri, Jota, or even Ox when fit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

Looking at Liverpool right now....would Werner even play for them?

Their top 3 is set in stone most days, and even behind them I dont think hes better than Shaqiri, Jota, or even Ox when fit.

That's your opinion. Considering Klopp wanted him, I'd imagine he had a plan for Werner and it's not like Mane/Salah/Firmino are getting any younger either. 

And by the way, Klopp only went after Jota after Werner decided to join us. Otherwise, he would have signed the latter instead. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jason said:

Honestly, I now just wish Werner had gone to Liverpool instead. Would probably have been better for his career development to play under Klopp and in a settled squad at Liverpool instead. Better to see than him playing in this mess of a club and then see all these weekly **** takes about him.

tenor.gif

I think its pretty fair to say he hasn´t been exactly a great signing (just like Havertz and Ziyech) so far.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Beigl said:

I think its pretty fair to say he hasn´t been exactly a great signing (just like Havertz and Ziyech) so far.

Can't really disagree with that but he's also not been like the worst signing either, like how people (not you specifically) are seemingly making it out to be. He has shown glimpses of what he can do. As much as we want to criticize the new signings, I think the second season is the best time to judge the players, especially with all the shit circumstances this season. One would hope things will return to some sort of normality next season - e.g. proper pre-season, no crazy fixture schedule - although the Euros being on is not helpful. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...