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Kai Havertz


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7 minutes ago, Jason said:

If we want to talk about minutes, then Pedro had played more than Willian across the 2 seasons under Conte. 5,232 to 5,079.

You're not wrong but the major difference in the minutes came in the Premier League and if you look closer at the games towards the end of the season, Pedro did start to play more and he was selected to start the Europa League final ahead of Willian, for example.

If Willian is someone like Hazard, then sure selling him would just be stupid but he isn't. The point is we could have sold him for the big fee that was mentioned, the fee that is way more than he is worth and we could have used that money to reinvest in the squad. Plus with Willian's contract situation, we've basically come to the same point again with him but without getting any fee in return - do we let him go or keep him around because it would affect the balance of the squad? Do we give him the 3-year contract?

Minutes wise I just wanted to show that willian and Pedro were as important as each other. 2500-3000 mins are massive minutes. 

Obviously we could have. Not saying it could not have happened, and I am sure this would have been discussed in length. Not just among the board but also with the manager. I had read that during the whole Courtois situation sarri was asked if he wanted to persist with Courtois or buy someone else. We bought jorgi for him, even bought in higuain. So obviously manager input was paramount.

Add to that the prior knowledge the board must have had about eden (hence we bought Puli) as well as the ban (hence we bought Puli in the winter window itself). They must have felt that going into this season with 3 young and very less PL experience wingers would be hard on the team (puli, cho and whoever we bought to replace willian). I don't think it was as clear cut as "we should have sold him" or "marina screwed up". Also willian barely costs us in the amortization and wages where as replacing him with a 50mil on 100kpw winger would have been a more expensive option for the board to take. Only thing I am saying, it's no where near as clear cut as fans make it out to be. There are massive arguments in the pro willian side too -

1. Known quality, 2. Manager preference, 3. Squad experience and instability with hazard surely leaving. 

Those 60mil would have been a loss if we had sold and replaced him with some Italian league winger that sarri would have wanted (let's be fair all of sarri and conte's transfers were crap) and we would not have got CL 2 years in a row.

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Hey Guys! Just visiting to tell you that i am very happy that Kai will most definitly play for you next season. Of course i would have prefered him to stay with us for the next decade and longer,

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8 hours ago, ulsterchelsea said:

It's simple to sit on here picking players we should sign and picking players we should sell for this amount or that. But the point he's making is the people placed in charge of it all are there for a reason. They know what they are doing whether we agree or not. 

Exactly. We pick players here without any responsibility. 

This is some of the names some of our fans wanted to sign in the last 3 years based on this forum.

Not criticizing anyone, I also pushed for some of them. This is how we would look:

Pickford, Firpo, Rugani, Gibson, Lazaro, Seri, Golovin, Zaha, Malcom, Neres, Piatek.

Plus Sessegnon, Coutinho, Alexis, Benteke, Jovic, Lozano, Pepe, Bailey, Paredes, Militao, Wilson, Arnautovic, Suso...

This time would be mid table at best.

Pulisic was for almost every fan on here behind Suso, Pepe, Bailey, Lozano, Malcom as a target... And look where is he now and where they are? He is our best player.

So everyone would do mistakes in charge.

We still won 2 titles in the last 5 years. 2017 summer transfer window was horrific of course.

But we did not sign any players (which played games for us) last 18 months. And last two signings were Pulisic and Kovacic (our 2 best players) and now Ziyech, Werner, possibly Havertz... This is all great...

Lets see but I have trust in our board.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Exactly. We pick players here without any responsibility. 

This is some of the names some of our fans wanted to sign in the last 3 years based on this forum.

Not criticizing anyone, I also pushed for some of them. This is how we would look:

Pickford, Firpo, Rugani, Gibson, Lazaro, Seri, Golovin, Zaha, Malcom, Neres, Piatek.

Plus Sessegnon, Coutinho, Alexis, Benteke, Jovic, Lozano, Pepe, Bailey, Paredes, Militao, Wilson, Arnautovic, Suso...

This time would be mid table at best.

Pulisic was for almost every fan on here behind Suso, Pepe, Bailey, Lozano, Malcom as a target... And look where is he now and where they are? He is our best player.

So everyone would do mistakes in charge.

We still won 2 titles in the last 5 years. 2017 summer transfer window was horrific of course.

But we did not sign any players (which played games for us) last 18 months. And last two signings were Pulisic and Kovacic (our 2 best players) and now Ziyech, Werner, possibly Havertz... This is all great...

Lets see but I have trust in our board.

It's ironic you praised the board for "ignoring" the fans on those names when this is the same board who spent 70 million Kepa, who looks a totally lost cause now, 50 million+ Jorginho, who is neither here nor there, 50 million+ on Morata - we're lucky that Atletico are "generous" and 30 million+ or whatever on players like Drinkwater - they even gave him a 100k p/w wages! The board should be praised when they have gotten it right but let's not pretend they have not had their fair share of shockers over the years. 

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41 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Minutes wise I just wanted to show that willian and Pedro were as important as each other. 2500-3000 mins are massive minutes. 

Obviously we could have. Not saying it could not have happened, and I am sure this would have been discussed in length. Not just among the board but also with the manager. I had read that during the whole Courtois situation sarri was asked if he wanted to persist with Courtois or buy someone else. We bought jorgi for him, even bought in higuain. So obviously manager input was paramount.

Add to that the prior knowledge the board must have had about eden (hence we bought Puli) as well as the ban (hence we bought Puli in the winter window itself). They must have felt that going into this season with 3 young and very less PL experience wingers would be hard on the team (puli, cho and whoever we bought to replace willian). I don't think it was as clear cut as "we should have sold him" or "marina screwed up". Also willian barely costs us in the amortization and wages where as replacing him with a 50mil on 100kpw winger would have been a more expensive option for the board to take. Only thing I am saying, it's no where near as clear cut as fans make it out to be. There are massive arguments in the pro willian side too -

1. Known quality, 2. Manager preference, 3. Squad experience and instability with hazard surely leaving. 

Those 60mil would have been a loss if we had sold and replaced him with some Italian league winger that sarri would have wanted (let's be fair all of sarri and conte's transfers were crap) and we would not have got CL 2 years in a row.

The manager's input has only been important when the board suddenly decide to. They may have gotten Jorginho and Higuain for Sarri but they have also signed players like Drinkwater and Barkley when nobody asked for them or not gotten the defender and midfielder and striker that Mourinho wanted after winning the title in 2015. One can hope this will no longer be the case moving forward but the board have a history of acting on their own.

Otherwise, agree to disagree.

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16 minutes ago, Jason said:

It's ironic you praised the board for "ignoring" the fans on those names when this is the same board who spent 70 million Kepa, who looks a totally lost cause now, 50 million+ Jorginho, who is neither here nor there, 50 million+ on Morata - we're lucky that Atletico are "generous" and 30 million+ or whatever on players like Drinkwater - they even gave him a 100k p/w wages! The board should be praised when they have gotten it right but let's not pretend they have not had their fair share of shockers over the years. 

I know they had. I am just saying that some people are acting like our board is worst in the world and they would do much better job and that it is easy job but all these names I mentioned are proof it is not.

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3 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I know they had. I am just saying that some people are acting like our board is worst in the world and they would do much better job and and that it is easy job but all these names I mentioned are proof it is not.

Our board can be hopeless at times but if people think they are the worst, they only need to look at Barcelona's. 

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29 minutes ago, Jason said:

The manager's input has only been important when the board suddenly decide to. They may have gotten Jorginho and Higuain for Sarri but they have also signed players like Drinkwater and Barkley when nobody asked for them or not gotten the defender and midfielder and striker that Mourinho wanted after winning the title in 2015. One can hope this will no longer be the case moving forward but the board have a history of acting on their own.

Otherwise, agree to disagree.

Jose wanted Costa and CESC - he got it. He wanted willian despite having hazard, Oscar, mata, schurrle, kdb and Moses, he got it 

We sold kdb and mata for him. 

Same with Conte - got Morata and lost Costa, got emerson, Alonso, bakayoko. Even bid twice or thrice on Sandro but Juve kept increasing the price.

But there is only so much shit that the board can deal with. But more often than not, it has been what the manager has wanted. 

But yeah, agree to disagree. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Jose wanted Costa and CESC - he got it. He wanted willian despite having hazard, Oscar, mata, schurrle, kdb and Moses, he got it 

We sold kdb and mata for him. 

Same with Conte - got Morata and lost Costa, got emerson, Alonso, bakayoko. Even bid twice or thrice on Sandro but Juve kept increasing the price.

But there is only so much shit that the board can deal with. But more often than not, it has been what the manager has wanted. 

But yeah, agree to disagree. 

 

 

Actually, Jose did want to keep both but they wanted to leave as they werent playing and the Euros was coming up. He stated this during that window and in the next season.
 

Plus if your going to turn around and say that selling those two to fund moves for Matic and Salah wasn't a good move at the time, then it wouldnt be true. We were arguably one of the most effective teams at maintaining the FFP rules in that time (ok its not exactly something to shout about completely but still...) and while they may have gone on to do very well (KDB and Salah as well a season later) you cannot keep players who do not want to stay 9 times out of 10, at any football club. De Bruyne was insistent on being sold and not loaned. Mata wanted to be played more regularly and got his move to United which after 2 seasons of playing regularly and doing well, looked a mistake in terms of how his career has gone IMO.

Yes managers have gotten what they have wanted to an extent here in terms of players but you cannot say that the club havent also made inputs through Emenalo or others or made decisions that have ruffled a few feathers. 

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3 hours ago, Jason said:

It's ironic you praised the board for "ignoring" the fans on those names when this is the same board who spent 70 million Kepa, who looks a totally lost cause now, 50 million+ Jorginho, who is neither here nor there, 50 million+ on Morata - we're lucky that Atletico are "generous" and 30 million+ or whatever on players like Drinkwater - they even gave him a 100k p/w wages! The board should be praised when they have gotten it right but let's not pretend they have not had their fair share of shockers over the years. 

But it does seem like Lampard has earned the respect of the board and will have significant input on transfers. I generally like the players mentioned in the press as 'Lampard signings' too.

Few months ago, we were looking at Moussa Dembele in attack but now have got Werner and Ziyech. Big gamble from Lamps to wait for the right player but it seems like it could just pay off^

 

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1 hour ago, Strike said:

Few months ago, we were looking at Moussa Dembele in attack but now have got Werner and Ziyech. Big gamble from Lamps to wait for the right player but it seems like it could just pay off

Yep, I think Dembele was always a target of the board / scouting department but Lampard never really fancied him. He'd have taken him as a January signing if available but Lyon refused to sell mid-season and for the summer window Lampard never even considered him. Looking at some of the rumored targets (Mertens, Aubameyang and then finally landing Werner) it's clear Lampard wanted someone more versatile who can play different positions or roles across the front line, instead of Dembele who can only play up front as a sole striker.

I believe his versatility is one of the main reasons Lampard wants Havertz so much too.

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8 hours ago, ulsterchelsea said:

Exactly my point

o, your 'point ' is not valid, and you persist with slanting and disinformation tactics

I NEVER claimed exact, to the pound, figures. I  always left a large  amount of tolerance in my final cumulative tallies. That large amount of wiggle room, even if I was off by a near impossible figure of £100m total from my own positings (which already took into account a smaller figure as possibility), still doesn't come CLOSE to negating the hundreds of millions of pounds shit away, monies that I have meticulously documented for years now here.

I also NEVER, EVER claimed anything, ANYTHING, other than a running total on certain transfers fees, whether spent, or potential sales (ie turn-downs) and then the actual final selling price. I never expanded my purview beyond that as it was NOT necessary nor was it germane to the discussion. as I NEVER got into the fundamental bottom line of the clubs cumulative operating balance sheets.

So your point is moot, sorry.

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2 hours ago, Vesper said:

o, your 'point ' is not valid, and you persist with slanting and disinformation tactics

I NEVER claimed exact, to the pound, figures. I  always left a large  amount of tolerance in my final cumulative tallies. That large amount of wiggle room, even if I was off by a near impossible figure of £100m total from my own positings (which already took into account a smaller figure as possibility), still doesn't come CLOSE to negating the hundreds of millions of pounds shit away, monies that I have meticulously documented for years now here.

I also NEVER, EVER claimed anything, ANYTHING, other than a running total on certain transfers fees, whether spent, or potential sales (ie turn-downs) and then the actual final selling price. I never expanded my purview beyond that as it was NOT necessary nor was it germane to the discussion. as I NEVER got into the fundamental bottom line of the clubs cumulative operating balance sheets.

So your point is moot, sorry.

No my point from the outset was that none of us know the inner workings of the club re transfers/monies/personal preference. You're the one who seems insistent that you know better than the rest of us... You don't though. It's not a slight on you though. Don't take it personally

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30 minutes ago, ulsterchelsea said:

No my point from the outset was that none of us know the inner workings of the club re transfers/monies/personal preference. You're the one who seems insistent that you know better than the rest of us... You don't though. It's not a slight on you though. Don't take it personally

no, I am only adding up up the transfers in and out, the prices paid, the moneys taken in on the sales, and the offers turned down for some of the players, and what they eventually went for or will go for (at best)

it certainly does not require access to the club's books to give a rough calculation, especially when I a priori give a HUGE amount of leeway with the figures that are not 100% known (due to them being future forward projections)

it is not rocket science and there is no way for anyone to put so much lipstick on the pig that it wipes out hundreds of millions of pounds shit away

I suggest you go and actually look at my myriad and detailed posts and explain to me how you can make hundreds of millions (after giving huge benefits of the doubt) of pounds simply disappear

again (and for the last time) I am NOT dealing with a holistic treatment of the entire balance sheets of the club

I am ONLY talking about the transfer market and our interactions with it, and you are continuously try to conflate multiple other areas that I never once expounded upon

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45 minutes ago, Vesper said:

 

I suggest you go and actually look at my myriad and detailed posts and explain to me how you can make hundreds of millions (after giving huge benefits of the doubt) of pounds simply disappear

I'll give it a miss thanks. Anyway, derailed this thread enough. Sorry everyone

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21 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Actually, Jose did want to keep both but they wanted to leave as they werent playing and the Euros was coming up. He stated this during that window and in the next season.
 

Plus if your going to turn around and say that selling those two to fund moves for Matic and Salah wasn't a good move at the time, then it wouldnt be true. We were arguably one of the most effective teams at maintaining the FFP rules in that time (ok its not exactly something to shout about completely but still...) and while they may have gone on to do very well (KDB and Salah as well a season later) you cannot keep players who do not want to stay 9 times out of 10, at any football club. De Bruyne was insistent on being sold and not loaned. Mata wanted to be played more regularly and got his move to United which after 2 seasons of playing regularly and doing well, looked a mistake in terms of how his career has gone IMO.

Yes managers have gotten what they have wanted to an extent here in terms of players but you cannot say that the club havent also made inputs through Emenalo or others or made decisions that have ruffled a few feathers. 

There is a difference in 'wanting' to and actually working towards it.

I want to sleep with Kim Kardashian and gal Gadot, does not mean I will get it.

Kdb gets MOTM against hull and then gets benched for months for a player who did not have a hundreth of his quality. 

You can't expect a manager to freeze a player out with out a reason other than his own asenine judgement and then expect the player to just bend over and take it. It's not how the real world works, it might work in "Jose world" like that though. In short, I want to say is, Jose drove them out, no matter whatever shit he peddles in the public.

I won't say kdb was justified. O feel he was worth fighting for even with josr, and our board should have done that. Sala I agree, he sermed okay-ish.

But that is the reason sometimes that the board has to say no. You can't get willian, matic, Costa and CESC and then want the board to spend another 150m on Pogba and varane. Conte won the league in 16/17, a year after the Jose debacle so I think the board were rught in not caving into Jose anymore. Also his career trajectory redeems them further.

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