Super Frank Thread

[Atomiswave 6,072]

29 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Man city rely on KDB and Aguero. They clearly suffer from not having Aguero, because Jesus is not on his level.
Spurs rely on Son and Kane. If Son and Kane did play as much together as Pulisic and Ziyech did for us (ziyech and pulisic played on match together in CL), I don't think they would be in their current position. Furthermore, Liverpool rely on Mane and Salah. If Mane and Salah played as much together as Ziyech and Pulisic did for us, I don't see them being competitive for the title.

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Its still a collective effort though your point is fair enough.

[ZaynChelsea 423]

Hasenhüttl is an amazing coach 

[Fernando 6,375]

18 minutes ago, ZaynChelsea said:

Hasenhüttl is an amazing coach 

He got beat badly last season by Leicester. 

Would not stand a chance here after that calamity. 

 

 

[ZaynChelsea 423]

14 minutes ago, Fernando said:

He got beat badly last season by Leicester. 

Would not stand a chance here after that calamity. 

 

 

Thanks Captain Obvious.

It‘s impressive how he turned around Southampton and they‘ve been thriving.

How many coaches manage to recover from such a defeat? When he left Salzburg, there were rumors that Bayern were gonna snatch him but surely he wouldn‘t survive here unlike the greenhorn manager who still struggles after spending a fortune. Get real ffs

[ZAPHOD2319 3,870]

Of course we do not get the media coverage you get in the U.K., has a feeding frenzy ensued about Frank? 

[killer1257 3,282]

Its still a collective effort though your point is fair enough.

Of course it is a collective effort, but when your best players are injured, no way you will win titles. In my post I mentioned Son and Kane for spurs and Mane and Salah for Pool. Son and Salah scored right now. Without those type of players, both spurs and Pool would be somewhere else. We sadly have the bad luck that Ziyech and Pulisic are injury prone as hell

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[Vesper 27,283]

 

Wednesday December 16 2020 Matt Law's Chelsea briefing

Trophies are no longer the only mark of success at Stamford Bridge — Lampard is building the future By Matt Law, Football News Correspondent Frank Lampard made it clear at the start of this month that he would love to extend his Chelsea contract. Lampard’s current deal has 18 months left to run, which, understandably, prompted some Chelsea fans to respond ‘what’s the rush?’ That’s exactly what some Liverpool supporters said when the club ripped up Jurgen Klopp’s new contract nine months into his reign and handed him a fresh long-term deal. Like Lampard, Klopp had initially signed for three years, but so impressed were Liverpool by his work that at the end of his first season in charge, after the club finished eighth in the Premier League and lost two finals, the German was given a new six-year deal. Chelsea fans have become accustomed to the Roman Abramovich approach of quantifying success by trophies — and who can argue with it, given the incredible success achieved during the Russian’s reign? Lampard knows how Abramovich operates better than most, having been a player in the squad that kept picking up trophies as the revolving door to the manager’s office kept spinning. So why should Chelsea treat Lampard and his staff any differently, given Chelsea are not even halfway through his second season in charge and no manager has survived two trophyless campaigns during the Abramovich era? Jose Mourinho, in his second spell, and Antonio Conte both had to wait until the end of title-winning seasons to earn new contracts, despite the fact their teams had been dominant for much of the campaign. But in appointing Lampard and trusting him to make use of the club’s academy, Chelsea committed themselves to a different path and a new culture in which the power was no longer with the players. That remains the case, despite a £220million summer transfer spend, as the players who arrived, with the exception of Thiago Silva, were not ready-made winners or dominant personalities and Lampard has retained his faith in the academy graduates while integrating the new faces. This is not a group who can manage themselves or maintain a culture, regardless of the manager. This is a squad who are being built and nurtured in their manager’s image, which is exactly why Chelsea should commit to making Lampard and his staff part of the long-term plan with new contracts. Of course, there would need to be difficult conversations and analysis if this season did fall away, but, equally, Chelsea’s commitment to Lampard past this season should not be reliant on silverware. The progress from last season, when Chelsea qualified for the Champions League and lost in the final of the FA Cup, is already evident. Lampard may play their chances down, but his team are part of this season’s title race and comfortably qualified for the last 16 of the Champions League by topping Group E. Early results are not the only indicator of the continuing progress, as Lampard has also showcased his own development by managing a much larger squad than he has ever been in charge of and finding solutions to the defensive problems that had been Chelsea’s Achilles heel. Mourinho claimed it was impossible to keep all of his Tottenham players happy with Harry Winks and Dele Alli both hoping to move on in January, but Lampard has managed to keep the likes of Olivier Giroud and Antonio Rudiger, who had been poised to leave in the summer, involved and, more importantly, engaged. Klopp signed his latest Liverpool contract last December, months before the club had secured their first title for 30 years, while Manchester City last month extended their commitment to Pep Guardiola, despite last season’s failure to win the Premier League or Champions League and a slow start to this campaign. Chelsea have always done things different under Abramovich, largely to great success. But now is the time to follow the lead of Liverpool and City, and underline the fact that Lampard is very much their man. Get in touch at @Matt_Law_DT or via [email protected].     Have a good Christmas The Chelsea newsletter is taking a break over the Christmas period. I'll be back in your inbox in the first week of January.

[Vesper 27,283]

Havertz and Werner might need Chelsea formation change to bring best out of them

https://theathletic.com/2264487/2020/12/16/werner-havertz-formation-chelsea/

This season, it seems, is not going to be kind to the teams with designs to be considered Premier League contenders.

Earlier this month, when they swept aside Leeds United at Stamford Bridge with a display of high-tempo ruthlessness, Chelsea had the look of a side who had found themselves heading into the festive fixture crunch in good shape. Eleven days and back-to-back defeats against Everton and Wolves later, it’s once again reasonable to question the on-pitch identity they had built with such style.

Frank Lampard was in no mood for such introspection in the immediate aftermath at Molineux. For him, this was simply a case of poor game management. “The threat from Wolves is clearly the counter-attack and it is a major threat from what they have got,” he said. “It is the main one because they have speed and quality in forward areas. The players knew it before the game, the players knew it in (the) game but we allowed some counter-attacks. If you are going to allow a team to play to their strengths then you may lose.”

Nothing he said left the impression there could be a departure from the 4-3-3 system that has underpinned Chelsea’s rise in recent weeks, even as Everton and then Wolves’ defensive success left many querying whether the formation is viable with the squad’s wing depth so depleted. The bigger headache for Lampard, however, will probably come when he ponders whether or not the tactical framework he has chosen can maximise either of his two marquee summer signings.

Timo Werner — operating from the right and later from the left of the front three at Molineux — had three shot attempts against Wolves, none on target and none particularly memorable. He has now failed to score in his last eight Chelsea appearances across all competitions and while that time span includes some freakish misses, three of his lowest expected goals (xG) ratings of the Premier League season have come in his last four games. Wolves largely kept him out wide, where his sloppy passing often made him more of a hindrance than a help.

Werner’s touch map vs Wolves

Kai Havertz, meanwhile, was replaced by Mateo Kovacic in the 71st minute after producing his most anonymous performance of the season. Deployed as a No 8 on the right of the midfield three, he touched the ball fewer times (47) than any outfield Chelsea starter other than Werner and Olivier Giroud, had no shots and played no key passes. The vast majority of the passes he completed were safe options, either sideways or backwards, offering little to the team’s more progressive passages of play.

Havertz pass map vs Wolves

When it comes to Havertz there is no shortage of reasonable mitigation. He contracted COVID-19 in November and was bed-ridden with significant symptoms for more than a week. As well as depriving him of training time, the illness also further slowed an already tricky adaptation process to a new style of football with a new team in a new league. Having played for spells as a No 8, a No 10, a winger and a false nine in four years at Bayer Leverkusen, he has been deployed in all four positions in his first four months at Chelsea. He is also 21.

Havertz revealed during his unveiling press conference in September that he considers himself primarily as a No 10. Werner, meanwhile, reached a new level of attacking threat at RB Leipzig last season when coach Julian Nagelsmann slotted him into a bespoke tactical role, somewhere in between an on-the-shoulder striker and a left winger, with either Yussuf Poulsen or Patrick Schick acting as the muscular attacking focal point.

The one thing that Havertz and Werner’s ideal roles have in common is that neither exist in Lampard’s 4-3-3.

It won’t always matter. As recent weeks have shown, Werner is more than capable of carrying a constant threat on the left of a front three, provided that he is allowed to do most of his running into the box without the ball rather than with it. While he can be a devastating ball-carrier in transition situations — as Newcastle and Leeds both found out to their cost — he lacks the skill of an elite winger to consistently dribble past his marker, and his touch is too inconsistent to be heavily involved in possession play.

On his better days, Havertz has also shown signs of growing into the No 8 role, finding pockets of space to receive the ball on the half-turn, moving it on intelligently and arriving late in the box to connect with crosses. The slick sequence of play which led to Giroud’s equaliser against Leeds exhibited all of these qualities.

Hakim Ziyech’s return from a hamstring injury will help both. The man Ajax fans dubbed “The Wizard of Amsterdam” has been exactly as advertised so far in England, establishing himself as the creative hub of this Chelsea team from the moment he came into the starting XI. Werner can connect with his devilish in-swinging crosses as Quincy Promes once did, and the defensive attention the Morocco international attracts can free up Havertz to express himself fully.

But until then, Lampard might need to lean on the tactical flexibility he showcased at key moments of last season. The 4-3-3 is only as effective as the balance of personnel within it; Chelsea’s dearth of fit wingers right now might have made a return to 3-4-2-1 more logical against Wolves. Another option — one that requires less disruption to the team’s defensive and midfield balance — would be a 4-4-2 diamond, with Havertz operating at the tip and Werner up front alongside either Giroud or Abraham:

That particular tactical scenario would penalise Christian Pulisic, Chelsea’s most dazzling attacker for long stretches of last season and a man Lampard really needs to find momentum for after a frustrating stretch of hamstring trouble. But any option the manager chooses will carry a significant selection cost in a squad blessed with as diverse an array of attacking talent as this one.

Chelsea’s on-pitch identity will probably continue to shift with the tides of form and fitness, along with the unpredictable storms in this most volatile of seasons. Lampard will need Werner and Havertz to help him chart a course through it all.

[communicate 2,703]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

Havertz and Werner might need Chelsea formation change to bring best out of them

https://theathletic.com/2264487/2020/12/16/werner-havertz-formation-chelsea/

This season, it seems, is not going to be kind to the teams with designs to be considered Premier League contenders.

Earlier this month, when they swept aside Leeds United at Stamford Bridge with a display of high-tempo ruthlessness, Chelsea had the look of a side who had found themselves heading into the festive fixture crunch in good shape. Eleven days and back-to-back defeats against Everton and Wolves later, it’s once again reasonable to question the on-pitch identity they had built with such style.

Frank Lampard was in no mood for such introspection in the immediate aftermath at Molineux. For him, this was simply a case of poor game management. “The threat from Wolves is clearly the counter-attack and it is a major threat from what they have got,” he said. “It is the main one because they have speed and quality in forward areas. The players knew it before the game, the players knew it in (the) game but we allowed some counter-attacks. If you are going to allow a team to play to their strengths then you may lose.”

Nothing he said left the impression there could be a departure from the 4-3-3 system that has underpinned Chelsea’s rise in recent weeks, even as Everton and then Wolves’ defensive success left many querying whether the formation is viable with the squad’s wing depth so depleted. The bigger headache for Lampard, however, will probably come when he ponders whether or not the tactical framework he has chosen can maximise either of his two marquee summer signings.

Timo Werner — operating from the right and later from the left of the front three at Molineux — had three shot attempts against Wolves, none on target and none particularly memorable. He has now failed to score in his last eight Chelsea appearances across all competitions and while that time span includes some freakish misses, three of his lowest expected goals (xG) ratings of the Premier League season have come in his last four games. Wolves largely kept him out wide, where his sloppy passing often made him more of a hindrance than a help.

Werner’s touch map vs Wolves

Kai Havertz, meanwhile, was replaced by Mateo Kovacic in the 71st minute after producing his most anonymous performance of the season. Deployed as a No 8 on the right of the midfield three, he touched the ball fewer times (47) than any outfield Chelsea starter other than Werner and Olivier Giroud, had no shots and played no key passes. The vast majority of the passes he completed were safe options, either sideways or backwards, offering little to the team’s more progressive passages of play.

Havertz pass map vs Wolves

When it comes to Havertz there is no shortage of reasonable mitigation. He contracted COVID-19 in November and was bed-ridden with significant symptoms for more than a week. As well as depriving him of training time, the illness also further slowed an already tricky adaptation process to a new style of football with a new team in a new league. Having played for spells as a No 8, a No 10, a winger and a false nine in four years at Bayer Leverkusen, he has been deployed in all four positions in his first four months at Chelsea. He is also 21.

Havertz revealed during his unveiling press conference in September that he considers himself primarily as a No 10. Werner, meanwhile, reached a new level of attacking threat at RB Leipzig last season when coach Julian Nagelsmann slotted him into a bespoke tactical role, somewhere in between an on-the-shoulder striker and a left winger, with either Yussuf Poulsen or Patrick Schick acting as the muscular attacking focal point.

The one thing that Havertz and Werner’s ideal roles have in common is that neither exist in Lampard’s 4-3-3.

It won’t always matter. As recent weeks have shown, Werner is more than capable of carrying a constant threat on the left of a front three, provided that he is allowed to do most of his running into the box without the ball rather than with it. While he can be a devastating ball-carrier in transition situations — as Newcastle and Leeds both found out to their cost — he lacks the skill of an elite winger to consistently dribble past his marker, and his touch is too inconsistent to be heavily involved in possession play.

On his better days, Havertz has also shown signs of growing into the No 8 role, finding pockets of space to receive the ball on the half-turn, moving it on intelligently and arriving late in the box to connect with crosses. The slick sequence of play which led to Giroud’s equaliser against Leeds exhibited all of these qualities.

Hakim Ziyech’s return from a hamstring injury will help both. The man Ajax fans dubbed “The Wizard of Amsterdam” has been exactly as advertised so far in England, establishing himself as the creative hub of this Chelsea team from the moment he came into the starting XI. Werner can connect with his devilish in-swinging crosses as Quincy Promes once did, and the defensive attention the Morocco international attracts can free up Havertz to express himself fully.

But until then, Lampard might need to lean on the tactical flexibility he showcased at key moments of last season. The 4-3-3 is only as effective as the balance of personnel within it; Chelsea’s dearth of fit wingers right now might have made a return to 3-4-2-1 more logical against Wolves. Another option — one that requires less disruption to the team’s defensive and midfield balance — would be a 4-4-2 diamond, with Havertz operating at the tip and Werner up front alongside either Giroud or Abraham:

That particular tactical scenario would penalise Christian Pulisic, Chelsea’s most dazzling attacker for long stretches of last season and a man Lampard really needs to find momentum for after a frustrating stretch of hamstring trouble. But any option the manager chooses will carry a significant selection cost in a squad blessed with as diverse an array of attacking talent as this one.

Chelsea’s on-pitch identity will probably continue to shift with the tides of form and fitness, along with the unpredictable storms in this most volatile of seasons. Lampard will need Werner and Havertz to help him chart a course through it all.

Hmm so should we sell puli and ziyech then

[Fernando 6,375]

16 hours ago, ZaynChelsea said:

Thanks Captain Obvious.

It‘s impressive how he turned around Southampton and they‘ve been thriving.

How many coaches manage to recover from such a defeat? When he left Salzburg, there were rumors that Bayern were gonna snatch him but surely he wouldn‘t survive here unlike the greenhorn manager who still struggles after spending a fortune. Get real ffs

No one because when someone loses like that they get sack fast. 

Because he is at that team he was giving time. 

[Tomo 21,681]

5 minutes ago, Mana said:

But back to Hasenhüttl. Do I believe our squad would perform better with him? Absolutely. Hasenhüttl is overachieving with Southampton. If he had more quality players, he will give top 4 a proper run for its money. Lampard is underachieving with our players.

It doesn't always work like that in practice as David Moyes and Roy Hodgson showed.

[Tomo 21,681]

Just now, Mana said:

Roy has been with CP for a good while now and the league finishes for them represents Hodgson.
Average. Crap. Just because he has gotten some good results against the better teams doesn’t mean he’s great.

Moyes, I need to see more from him before I can make a serious judgement on how good he’s performing. But if City and United win their both games in hand WH will be 9th. That is not an overachieving position.

Roy got Fulham to a Europa League final and a 7th place finish, many assumed he'd do well at a top club they were wrong.

[Tomo 21,681]

12 minutes ago, Mana said:

Lampard took Derby to the Championship play-off final, and a great number of Chelsea fans assumed he'd do brilliantly with us. They were wrong so far as well.

Lampard had a chance to win the Super Cup. Failed (you can say we were better than Pool that game, but in a cup-tied game, just playing better isn't the answer).

Lampard had a chance to win the FA Cup against a very poor Arsenal side. Failed. (Boy, Lampard has a poor record with finals so far...)

Lampard scraped a top 4 finish, while having more lives than a cat. Just about achieving the bare minimum.

This season, we are already out of the Carabao Cup.

10 years ago, Wenger said "4th place is like winning a trophy." Every single one of us laughed at that comment. Now today, we are celebrating it. The fecking standards have lowered in this football club.

Small problem, no one really "celebrated" it, we were happy to achieve it as the majority thought it was out of reach. Infact you were adamant we had absolutely no chance so you should be the happiest person on here.

[Jase 43,479]

13 minutes ago, Mana said:

Lampard took Derby to the Championship play-off final, and a great number of Chelsea fans assumed he'd do brilliantly with us. They were wrong so far as well.

Lampard had a chance to win the Super Cup. Failed (you can say we were better than Pool that game, but in a cup-tied game, just playing better isn't the answer).

Lampard had a chance to win the FA Cup against a very poor Arsenal side. Failed. (Boy, Lampard has a poor record with finals so far...)

Lampard scraped a top 4 finish, while having more lives than a cat. Just about achieving the bare minimum.

This season, we are already out of the Carabao Cup.

10 years ago, Wenger said "4th place is like winning a trophy." Every single one of us laughed at that comment. Now today, we are celebrating it. The fecking standards have lowered in this football club.

This isn't about Lampard but judging by your constant and relentless moaning about things, I don't think you will ever be happy with any manager unless he wins every game and every trophy available. Experienced manager at the helm or not, you always have something to moan and cry about and heck, maybe even want him out after a loss or two. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

If things dont turn good with Lamps I would grab Pochittino, now he might have won jack shit but he knows how to build chemistry.

[Fernando 6,375]

2 hours ago, Mana said:

Are you implying we should have the same standards as Southampton? Have we sunk that low that we are comparing Southampton? Southampton can afford to give him time because 1) Prior to that defeat, overall he was giving Southampton life and 2) They may not find anybody else. And Hasenhüttl has more experience and more qualified than Lampard.

Hasenhüttl's redemption is something to admire, but it's similar to Eddie Howe's massive achievement with Bournemouth seasons ago.

Let's be real, any other top club would have sacked him. A team like Barca losing 9-0 will be headlines across the world. Barely anyone outside the UK knows Southampton, so while it was a club embarrassment it wasn't international.

But back to Hasenhüttl. Do I believe our squad would perform better with him? Absolutely. Hasenhüttl is overachieving with Southampton. If he had more quality players, he will give top 4 a proper run for its money. Lampard is underachieving with our players.

And last season it pissed me off people here had the gall to compare Lamps to the big names of Klopp and Pep. He is nowhere NEAR their level. Lampard's level is Arteta and Ole. That's his level. Just like those two clowns, he is underachieving with the players he has got. We shouldn't be losing back to back, which were both piss poor performances.

 

So kloop losing to Aston villa 7 to 2? 

Your worry so much about one or two results but even the best it can go wrong. 

Overall Lampard is doing well. 

[Fernando 6,375]

4 minutes ago, Mana said:

*facepalm* Oh brother, seriously? Is that all you took from that?!

Klopp losing 7-2 was an embarrassment to Liverpool. But they stuck by him. Why is that? Because Klopp has a positive style of play everybody wants and loves and just won the PL. Even though Liverpool lost 7-2, they are top of the league right now. The Villa defeat has been overshadowed. These "one or two" results for Chelsea will not be overshadowed unless by some miracle we are challenging for the title.

P.S. - You are the second person to tell me "2 bad results and you scream". Where have you been since Lampard was here. It's MORE than two bad results.

So you freaking out for 2 bad results is not the same? 

You forget the entire picture? 

Even before those two games analysts like carraggher where saying how we have recruited well. How we are setting up for the future.

And that at this moment is more important. 

 

 

[Fernando 6,375]

7 minutes ago, Mana said:

What is the entire picture? Is this equivalent to "trust the process" I keep seeing with Ole and Arteta?

We recruited well, yes. That I can agree on. But what is that translating to right now? I don't care about the future, I care about now. What's happening now? If I see good things happening constantly on the pitch, I won't be fuming and would have agreed we will get better in the future. But 3 defeats and 4 uninspiring draws is not making me believe.

That is the problem, when you focus on the now with younger players and new players it will take time. 

Right now we have suffered a dipped in form which was expected. But I will see how we finish the season, what buys we do in January and go from there. And then take an overall approach to what we have. 

Right now we have a mix, good buys, young players, dip in form. What is the real deal? I suggest we will know by the end. 

But one thing is for sure, we are building something good that even if Lampard goes in the summer, we will attract a top coach like naggelsmam, Pochetino etc etc.