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21 minutes ago, Milan said:

Ouch.

Results since Lampard said he wants to extend his contract...

W 3-1 Leeds
D 1-1 Krasnodar
L 0-1 Everton
L 1-2 Wolves
W 3-0 West Ham
L 1-3 Arsenal
D 1-1 Aston Villa

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I can't actually believe how well coached we are. Puts it in further perspective when you see the garbage United and Arsenal are spewing. I love the fact Frank isn't so stubborn to try and do it

Very confused, can only assume the ones being somewhat negative did not watch the game? Aside from Dave and Zouma, I thought we played really well against the European Champions. I was shocked at time

Our pressing game was superb, and made all the difference today! 4-3-3 with Mount and Havertz to harass opponents and Kante to sweep up behind...that's the way to go. And we have two bombing

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lol Not even going to go deep into this. What we're seeing out there is clearly whatever Lampard has been working with the players. He's the one training the players and the players are the ones executing whatever that is asked of them. If the players aren't doing things right, then it's Lampard's job to set them straight and guide them. But he isn't. You're lying if you don't think our football now is just all about spamming crosses. 
I was just thinking. We used to have Cesc, Matic and Oscar. In my opinion, Oscar was a low level player that I actually scouted for a while before he came to us because I read that he was a Brazilian Modric. I was a huge fan of Spurs Modric and knew he was the real deal. So I watched him and came to the conclusion that Oscar was nothing like Modric and he was garbage [emoji23]. So, I really think Oscar was a poor player that could press and shoot well and nothing more. Nothing special to me, especially because I wanted a Modric [emoji24]. I would say that Mount is worse than Oscar. Stats probably say the same.

Cesc is a one of a kind and all time PL legend. In my opinion, he has more creativity and passing technique than kante, Mount, Kovacic and Kai combined. This is how much I rated Cesc.

Matic had his flaws, but was great overall. Kante is much better though.

Overall, a midfield out of matic cesc and oscar had more balance than our current midfield. It actually had everything. Size, world class passing abilities because of Cesc and a goalscorer in Oscar, even though he was a bad player.
Even they had periods when Cesc did not perform well and played bad under Mou and under Conte(cesc and Matic together because Conte sold Oscar because he saw the light). Our current midfield does not have either size and does definitely not have the same technique and creativity than our old midfield.

This might be a mixture between lack of individual quality and bad coaching or just lack of individual quality. We played garbage under Mou, Conte and Sarri. But I remember teams like prime Barcelona changed managers frequently and still won titles because of their individual quality, regardless how shit the coaches were. When Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez etc regressed, Barcelona was over. Individual quality matters a lot. You will not make an average team turn into prime Barcelona. Not going to happen, regardless who the coach is.



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I‘d still like to introduce the name Hasenhüttl again. He is a great coach, one of the best in the PL imo and he has a proven track record of developing youngsters
I think he might be my favorite right now. Also PL proven

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16 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

But I remember teams like prime Barcelona changed managers frequently and still won titles because of their individual quality, regardless how shit the coaches were. When Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez etc regressed, Barcelona was over. Individual quality matters a lot. You will not make an average team turn into prime Barcelona. Not going to happen, regardless who the coach is.

If individual quality really matters, then Barcelona shouldn’t be in a bad state right now given they have bought quality players in recent years. The problem with Barcelona is they slowly lost their way after Guardiola left. They started to just buy whatever top players out there without any consideration of whether they actually fit into a cohesive system and they also stopped promoting youth players from their famed academy. There is still 1 or 2 but not many at all as in the past. 

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If individual quality really matters, then Barcelona shouldn’t be in a bad state right now given they have bought quality players in recent years. The problem with Barcelona is they slowly lost their way after Guardiola left. They started to just buy whatever top players out there without any consideration of whether they actually fit into a cohesive system and they also stopped promoting youth players from their famed academy. There is still 1 or 2 but not many at all as in the past. 


It depends. Prime Suarez is much better than Griezmann overall in my opinion. I think Suarez is top 3 all time goal scorer at Barcelona and it did not take him that much time to do become top 3 at the list.

Iniesta in his prime is better than Coutinho, regardless what position we are talking about. Coutinho also struggled at Bayern.

So, yes Barcelona's invesments were mostly bad because they did not fit in their philosophy, but still the gap between Iniesta and Coutinho is huge or the gap between prime Suarez and Griezmann.

Barcelona also won the CL with Luis Enrique, who I don't rate at all. 3 years after Pep. They won the La Liga title with Valverde, who was garbage.

Like I said before, I think that Cesc, Matic and Oscar is better than Kante, Mount and Kai. Just the balance and the individual quality of our former midfield makes me think that our current midfield does not have the potential to play world class football because skill wise, we are worse than our old midfield.






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Might have said it here already (or it was probably somewhere else) but if I got my math right, Lampard is the first manager since Mourinho 1.0 to have been able to spend as much as he did in the summer and unlike some of the recent managers, he even got to pick the players he wanted and got them. So really, there should not be any excuse for why we shouldn’t be doing better than we are right now. We might not be the finished article yet but some of the tactical decisions, management and playing style from Lampard have not inspired confidence to put it kindly.

On another point, you can really see how the English media treat an English manager vs a non-English manager. Solskjaer is probably not a top level manager but the guy gets panned every time after United lose a game. Pundits always jump on his back, journalists would write like 100 articles on why Solskjaer is bad etc. But with Lampard? Nothing much has really been said. No one is calling for his head like the same people do with Solskjaer and any pieces written on Lampard have basically been along the lines “things aren’t going well right now but Lampard must get it right soon”. Both are similar - lucky to get the top job, have spent lots of money, have been at the club for at least 1.5 years now and have experienced similar issues - but one gets worse treatment than the other.

Am not one to call for the manager to get sacked unless things get really bad or things reach the point where the manager doesn’t inspire confidence anymore, but Lampard would have likely been sacked by now if it was 10 years ago. Other managers have probably been sacked by Roman for less but Lampard is still here. Much like how he got the job, I think Lampard will remain as manager by default because there aren’t necessarily better options out there and how silly the league table looks right now (trying to see from the club’s POV but whether right or wrong is another debate). Moreover, if the board didn’t sack Sarri 2 years ago despite all the bad results and fans unrest, then I don’t think the club will pull the trigger on Lampard (yet maybe).

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1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

It depends. Prime Suarez is much better than Griezmann overall in my opinion. I think Suarez is top 3 all time goal scorer at Barcelona and it did not take him that much time to do become top 3 at the list.

Iniesta in his prime is better than Coutinho, regardless what position we are talking about. Coutinho also struggled at Bayern.

So, yes Barcelona's invesments were mostly bad because they did not fit in their philosophy, but still the gap between Iniesta and Coutinho is huge or the gap between prime Suarez and Griezmann.

Barcelona also won the CL with Luis Enrique, who I don't rate at all. 3 years after Pep. They won the La Liga title with Valverde, who was garbage.

IIRC, Enrique almost got sacked at one point midway through a season but then somehow to right the ship and won the treble that season. Barcelona were still largely okay in terms of winning trophies under Enrique but the rot started after Guardiola and it just blew up completely last season. 

And yes, Iniesta and Suarez may be better than Coutinho and Griezmann but the latter two are still quality as individual players. The problem is Barcelona bought them without having any idea how to fit them into a cohesive system. That wasn’t the case with Iniesta and Suarez. They fitted in well with their 4-3-3. 

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1 hour ago, killer1257 said:

Omg, not that guy.

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why not. last time barcelona was any good was with him. even with spain he dominates. messi rates him highly.

if not him then nagelsmann.

 

anyways, lampard will not get sacked anytime soon so this is useless to talk about now.

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Might have said it here already (or it was probably somewhere else) but if I got my math right, Lampard is the first manager since Mourinho 1.0 to have been able to spend as much as he did in the summer and unlike some of the recent managers, he even got to pick the players he wanted and got them. So really, there should not be any excuse for why we shouldn’t be doing better than we are right now. We might not be the finished article yet but some of the tactical decisions, management and playing style from Lampard have not inspired confidence to put it kindly.
On another point, you can really see how the English media treat an English manager vs a non-English manager. Solskjaer is probably not a top level manager but the guy gets panned every time after United lose a game. Pundits always jump on his back, journalists would write like 100 articles on why Solskjaer is bad etc. But with Lampard? Nothing much has really been said. No one is calling for his head like the same people do with Solskjaer and any pieces written on Lampard have basically been along the lines “things aren’t going well right now but Lampard must get it right soon”. Both are similar - lucky to get the top job, have spent lots of money, have been at the club for at least 1.5 years now and have experienced similar issues - but one gets worse treatment than the other.
Am not one to call for the manager to get sacked unless things get really bad or things reach the point where the manager doesn’t inspire confidence anymore, but Lampard would have likely been sacked by now if it was 10 years ago. Other managers have probably been sacked by Roman for less but Lampard is still here. Much like how he got the job, I think Lampard will remain as manager by default because there aren’t necessarily better options out there and how silly the league table looks right now (trying to see from the club’s POV but whether right or wrong is another debate). Moreover, if the board didn’t sack Sarri 2 years ago despite all the bad results and fans unrest, then I don’t think the club will pull the trigger on Lampard (yet maybe).
Does Ole really get that much stick from pundits? From the interviews I have seen from Neville, Roy Keane and Scholes, all the time they say give Ole time and sacking him would not do Man United any good because they sack managers all the time and nothing has changed. They give for instance the players the fault for lack of individual quality and they are former world class players. For instance, Pogba is hyped up as one of the greatest football players in the world right now and in my opinion, he is not that good. He has so many weaknesses, I could open an own thread about how many big weaknesses he has currently and why he is failing. Still to this day, he has not found the right position for himself and is complete rubbish tactically. He was training under Mourinho and after that spell, he was still rubbish tactically. How is another coach going to turn Pogba into a "real" world class player and a tactical solid player when Mou failed tool or other coaches have failed miserably? You could argue why did it work

You can argue that it is all the coaches fault, or you can argue that maybe Pogba is not good enough regardless who the coach is. You, as a coach can only give your players a certain amount of foundation. If the players fail at what you asked them to do, or just lack the quality of applying it, what is the coach supposed to do? No coach made Willian world class. No coach was able to turn Alonso into a defensive mastermind etc.

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4 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Does Ole really get that much stick from pundits? From the interviews I have seen from Neville, Roy Keane and Scholes, all the time they say give Ole time and sacking him would not do Man United any good because they sack managers all the time and nothing has changed

You just answered your own question. You mentioned 3 former United players. Of course they wouldn’t criticize their mate. They would rather go after the easy target in Ed Woodward, who of course has been at fault too but yeah. Exclude those with allegiance to United and even Solskjaer, there are definitely a lot of people who give stick to Solskjaer.

6 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

They give for instance the players the fault for lack of individual quality and they are former world class players. For instance, Pogba is hyped up as one of the greatest football players in the world right now and in my opinion, he is not that good. He has so many weaknesses, I could open an own thread about how many big weaknesses he has currently and why he is failing. Still to this day, he has not found the right position for himself and is complete rubbish tactically. He was training under Mourinho and after that spell, he was still rubbish tactically. How is another coach going to turn Pogba into a "real" world class player and a tactical solid player when Mou failed tool or other coaches have failed miserably? You could argue why did it work

You can argue that it is all the coaches fault, or you can argue that maybe Pogba is not good enough regardless who the coach is. You, as a coach can only give your players a certain amount of foundation. If the players fail at what you asked them to do, or just lack the quality of applying it, what is the coach supposed to do? No coach made Willian world class. No coach was able to turn Alonso into a defensive mastermind etc.

So, is Solskjaer a good manager or bad manager? You can’t say he’s a shit manager and then criticize him for not improving players.

Anyway FGS, am not getting into a debate with you on this kind of topic again! :middlefinger:

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2 hours ago, ZaynChelsea said:

I‘d still like to introduce the name Hasenhüttl again. He is a great coach, one of the best in the PL imo and he has a proven track record of developing youngsters

What is with Southampton and them getting good coaches* and players? They must have a very good scouting/management team.

*Well, apart from Mark Hughes which they sacked pretty quickly

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1 hour ago, Jap Si. said:

My English knot so good but I am loving fam and blud and bruv I am laughing you English are being so funny fam.

Even if it is a troll. 😂

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4 minutes ago, Mana said:

Also Hasenhüttl gets to manage Werner again. He will let Werner play his natural position like he did back in RB Leipzig.

Hasenhüttls high line got him slaughtered last season vs Leicester and this season vs Spurs. Ppl on here would go on the fence if that happened to us. Hasenhüttl is such a high risk high reward coach, I am not quite sure he will make it at a top team where the pressure is on to perform day in day out. At Leipzig he struggled to overcome stubborn defenses all too often. Bayern was quite average during his time at RBL, yet he never came close to threatenign them. Pochettino at least ran us close when we walked the league.

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Lampard future will depend on making Havertz and Werner a success

https://theathletic.com/2289444/2020/12/29/framk-lampard-timo-werner-kai-havertz-chelsea/

In a game Frank Lampard needed to win to alleviate the growing pressure at Chelsea, he took the significant step of leaving the club’s biggest two summer signings out of the first XI. Was it a show of strength or asking for trouble?

Lampard has had a few of his managerial attributes questioned in some quarters of late following a run of three defeats in four games this month, but no one can doubt his bravery against Aston Villa.

It was a big call to name Germany internationals Timo Werner and Kai Havertz on the substitutes bench even if there were mitigating and understandable circumstances.

Werner, who had started every Premier League game up to this point, has been looking tired and short of confidence following a run of 10 matches without a goal. Meanwhile, Havertz, who has not started the last three league matches, has suffered from the after effects of contracting COVID as well as struggling to adapt to the Premier League.

Lampard could also rightly argue that on form, neither man is playing well enough to merit a place in his side. They were still given a chance to change the game late on too as they were brought on with 18 minutes to go, but Aston Villa held on to a 1-1 draw fairly comfortably.

The question is what does Roman Abramovich think? When the owner sanctioned the club spending more than £100 million on their signatures in the last window, one can assume the multi-billionaire did not expect they would be watching important fixtures from the sidelines.

This is a different scenario to what has taken place with Kepa Arrizabalaga. Lampard has already made a strong call, which was backed by the powers-that-be, to replace the world’s most expensive goalkeeper with a new arrival in Edouard Mendy.

Kepa’s deteriorating displays and the fact he was not Lampard’s signing — the Spaniard was brought in when Maurizio Sarri was at the helm — meant allowances could be made. But Havertz and Werner moved to Chelsea on Lampard’s watch and with his blessing.

Managers will always be judged by Abramovich on results first, but history shows how they have been held to account for not making expensive marquee signings work too.

For example, the acquisition of Andriy Shevchenko from AC Milan for £30.8 million in 2006, led to tension behind the scenes as Jose Mourinho failed to get the best out of the Ukrainian during the final 13 months of his first spell at Stamford Bridge.

Similarly, the declining fortunes of Fernando Torres, who joined from Liverpool for a club record £50 million in January 2011, was a contributory factor in the downfall of Chelsea coaches Carlo Ancelotti and Roberto di Matteo.

The latter took the courageous step of leaving Torres out of a must-not-lose Champions League group game at Juventus and selected Eden Hazard as a false No 9 instead. Chelsea lost 3-0, failed to qualify for the last 16 for the first time in their history and the Italian was sacked the next morning.

Lampard should still have a lot of credit in the bank for what he achieved last season. Chelsea got into the top four with a squad that was not his own. The former England international was not able to make transfers due to a one-window ban and took the notable step of giving academy youngsters their senior debuts, using a handful on a regular basis.

However, the hierarchy could turnaround and wonder why after investing more than £200 million in new signings — Mendy, Hakim Ziyech, Ben Chilwell and Thiago Silva (free agent) also joined in the last window — the club have amassed three points fewer than at the same stage last year (2019-20 16 games — 29 points; 2020-21 16 games — 26 points).

It should not be forgotten that Chelsea were in a very good state just three weeks ago. They had gone 17 games unbeaten in all competitions, finished top of their Champions League group and an impressive 3-1 victory over Leeds briefly took them to the top of the Premier League. The fixture list is also more intense due to the impact COVID had on the schedule and Chelsea had no pre-season to work on systems and tactics with the new personnel.

But Lampard knows from his 13 years as a Chelsea player, of which 11 were under Abramovich, that being in charge of the west London club can be one of the harshest environments to work in. Patience is in short supply.

Chelsea have now picked up just four points from their last five games. Their total of 26 after 16 matches is the second worst of the Abramovich era, with only Mourinho’s dramatic fall from grace in 2015-16 ranking lower.

The pressure is starting to show. Lampard has looked a nervous and tense figure during games of late. One source has told The Athletic that ‘he lost it’ while delivering the half-time team talk at Arsenal on December 26.

To be fair, given the way Chelsea had played to find themselves 2-0 down, he had every right. Another insider remarked how certain individuals were rebuked in front of the group for their performance in the opening 45 minutes at the Emirates Stadium. Unfortunately the strong words did not pay off as the visitors went on to lose 3-1.

Lampard will be confident that he can turn this around. It was not that long ago Chelsea were being talked about as possible title contenders and the struggle for consistency is being shared throughout the division, which again perhaps highlights how this is an extraordinary campaign where twists and turns are the norm.

But the wins needs to come soon to silence the inevitable speculation, ideally with Havertz and Werner playing a major role on the pitch.

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