Jorginho

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

I thought in the games against Arsenal and Spurs last season he was good?

Struggled defensively for a period v Arsenal in that 3-2 game actuallu but the whole team did and in the community shield he wasnt much use.

Also vs Arsenal in the europa final as well as v City in the other final last season thought he played well too.... maybe just me.

Struggled yesterday though for sure. 

It's just you.

Jorginho is like another Fabregas situation for us. Will boss the smaller teams and not get exploited so often defensively but the opposite happens against the bigger sides. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,194]

I appreciate him trying to always make things happen, but sometimes he needs to be more disciplined. Especially when we are in control, and we very much were after we scored. 

That pass was suicidal and led to City countering us. 

[NikkiCFC 7,565]

His mistake for the first goal should be covered by defenders but you can't rely on them. I remember when Tomori made horror mistake in Southampton Jorginho cleared the ball of the line. That's what great teams do but I'm not really bothered with this defeat. 

[communicate 2,703]

15 hours ago, Jason said:

It's just you.

Jorginho is like another Fabregas situation for us. Will boss the smaller teams and not get exploited so often defensively but the opposite happens against the bigger sides. 

It is a bit worse than fab. Jorginho is a bit better defensively but Fabregas at one point was the best passer in epl. 

[Jase 43,479]

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

His mistake for the first goal should be covered by defenders but you can't rely on them. I remember when Tomori made horror mistake in Southampton Jorginho cleared the ball of the line. That's what great teams do but I'm not really bothered with this defeat. 

He had the chance to prevent the goal after giving the ball away but what did he do? Dived in foolishly and De Bruyne made him look like a fool and scored (albeit with a deflection). I expect better from one of the more experienced players in the squad and the vice-captain, who has been praised to the heavens this season! It's maddening how the experienced players are the ones making the more fatal mistakes in these games this season! 

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

He had the chance to prevent the goal after giving the ball away but what did he do? Dived in foolishly and De Bruyne made him look like a fool and scored (albeit with a deflection). I expect better from one of the more experienced players in the squad and the vice-captain, who has been praised to the heavens this season! It's maddening how the experienced players are the ones making the more fatal mistakes in these games this season! 

One mistake and if the ball didnt take the deflection its probably not going in.... 

He has been praised a lot this season because its been deserved. Give the guy a break. Probably been our best player so far this season yet one result v City where we lost and its basically all forgotten on here by some posters... 

I would question Lampards nativity (just a bit naive I felt) at trying to play away to City like that and really we played into their hands (just like v United on day 1), they normally have all the ball but probably knew they could get at us on the break/in transitions and they basically were happy to do that at home.

Even then though, it was a deflected goal and a good second goal of individual skill. Defensive mistakes throughout the performance yes totally but nothing new in some of our games this season, particularly in big ones.

[Vesper 27,283]

11 hours ago, Jason said:

He had the chance to prevent the goal after giving the ball away but what did he do? Dived in foolishly and De Bruyne made him look like a fool and scored (albeit with a deflection). I expect better from one of the more experienced players in the squad and the vice-captain, who has been praised to the heavens this season! It's maddening how the experienced players are the ones making the more fatal mistakes in these games this season! 

the deflection WAS (ultimately) the goal, no deflection, no goal

it never should have got to that point I do concede

[Tomo 21,681]

31 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

One mistake and if the ball didnt take the deflection its probably not going in.... 

He has been praised a lot this season because its been deserved. Give the guy a break. Probably been our best player so far this season yet one result v City where we lost and its basically all forgotten on here by some posters... 

I would question Lampards nativity (just a bit naive I felt) at trying to play away to City like that and really we played into their hands (just like v United on day 1), they normally have all the ball but probably knew they could get at us on the break/in transitions and they basically were happy to do that at home.

Even then though, it was a deflected goal and a good second goal of individual skill. Defensive mistakes throughout the performance yes totally but nothing new in some of our games this season, particularly in big ones.

I disagree, I feel we approached the game the correct way tactically and were quite unlucky.

It's a myth that it's best to sit off a Pep side, that's exactly what he wants, they just wear you down physically and mentally to the point they have you doubting your own sanity, case in point our two games Vs them in 17/18.

The best way to play City is to try and impose your own will on them, yes that can be pretty risky as was found out in this fixture last season, but there's a much higher chance of reward. It's no coincidence Klopp has the best head to head record against Pep while the pragmatic managers get their arses handed to them most of the time.

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

24 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I disagree, I feel we approached the game the correct way tactically and were quite unlucky.

It's a myth that it's best to sit off a Pep side, that's exactly what he wants, they just wear you down physically and mentally to the point they have you doubting your own sanity, case in point our two games Vs them in 17/18.

The best way to play City is to try and impose your own will on them, yes that can be pretty risky as was found out in this fixture last season, but there's a much higher chance of reward. It's no coincidence Klopp has the best head to head record against Pep while the pragmatic managers get their arses handed to them most of the time.

It just depends. For me after first 30 minutes we struggled to move the ball fast enough, having commited men forward so City could just pick us off on transitions. They were happy to do that too. Felt we needed to be more balanced, yes we lost to a deflected goal and a individual goal but they could have scored more too as well.

I think Klopps teams are very good against the likes of City but they arent all high press attacking for 90 minutes, they have periods were they arent as reactive. Fair enough they dont sit deep but make themselves solid, difficult to play through so the opposition teams work the ball wide and cross it, which is ideal as they defend crosses well with Fabinho, Matip, van Dij and Alisson. Then they go press at certain times and play direct long passes into the channels for quick counters. They have a mix of everything, they have a very efficient attack, legs in midfield and plenty of defensive stability with Alisson, Matip, Van Dijk, Fabinho and even Henderson (who I hate as a player makes me sick hes played in 2 CL finals 😂)

Dont think its completely out of our capabilities to be more like this. On the front foot, pressing, then maybe be a bit more solid and then go after them again. Its in game management. I think Lampard is continually learning and maybe he will see that going to the Etihad and playing that way, having more possession etc is all well and good but still he will maybe think what if we were a bit more solid in that time of the game or whatever. Maybe not. Its just my opinion I think the big games he has to maybe realise that we can maybe be a bit more flexible, maybe sit 10m deeper in periods of games or maybe just control the game a bit better.

Man City and Pep teams in general they will always prefer to face teams who try press or commit men forward because they are confident they can play through it and exploit the spaces. Similar to Sarri, at Napoli here and Juventus he wants teams to press them high so they can play through it and exploit spaces theyve left. Pragmatism has worked against Pep too, it depends on what your teams characteristics are. Dont think we could go to how Jose or Conte (2nd season) approached with Frank though not in his nature, hence why his teams havent kept a lot of clean sheets in his short spell as a manager at Derby and here. Contes team here when we beat them at the Etihad in his first season for instance though we didnt really press too much first half, sat deep and yes we went 1-0 down but equalized through a long pass and run off the shoulder of their defensive line who was higher up because we were deeper. Then second half we started nicking the ball 10m further up and went on to win. It just depends. Van Gaal's Holland team vs Spain again did something similar in the Euros or whatever in that game Van Persie scored that header. Played a lot more reserved in terms of going after Spain but then switched it up and got into them.

[Vesper 27,283]

16 hours ago, communicate said:

It is a bit worse than fab. Jorginho is a bit better defensively but Fabregas at one point was the best passer in epl. 

He was the best passer in the EPL for ages, at Arse then with us. De Bruyne took his crown. Shame he was so utter shit defensively. 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

One mistake and if the ball didnt take the deflection its probably not going in.... 

He has been praised a lot this season because its been deserved. Give the guy a break. Probably been our best player so far this season yet one result v City where we lost and its basically all forgotten on here by some posters... 

But is that not a fact? An experienced player like Jorginho should know better than to force a pass into traffic and dive in on a challenge.

Said it previously, as great as Jorginho is against the smaller teams, he really hasn’t stamped his mark against the big teams and His defensive flaws become a huge problem.

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

It's a myth that it's best to sit off a Pep side, that's exactly what he wants, they just wear you down physically and mentally to the point they have you doubting your own sanity, case in point our two games Vs them in 17/18.

The best way to play City is to try and impose your own will on them, yes that can be pretty risky as was found out in this fixture last season, but there's a much higher chance of reward. It's no coincidence Klopp has the best head to head record against Pep while the pragmatic managers get their arses handed to them most of the time.

Both proactive and pragmatic (as long as you don’t just sit back entirely and defend for 0-0) approaches have their merits (and risks) against Guardiola’s teams TBH. You’ve already pointed out Klopp’s proactive style and our pragmatic style - aka defend and counter attack approach - has gotten results and/or has worked against his teams. 4 times against Barcelona, 1 once against Bayern, 4 times against City. It took him until his 8th game against us to finally get a win and you always need a bit of luck when facing Guardiola.

[Tomo 21,681]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Both proactive and pragmatic (as long as you don’t just sit back entirely and defend for 0-0) approaches have their merits (and risks) against Guardiola’s teams TBH. You’ve already pointed out Klopp’s proactive style and our pragmatic style - aka defend and counter attack approach - has gotten results and/or has worked against his teams. 4 times against Barcelona, 1 once against Bayern, 4 times against City. It took him until his 8th game against us to finally get a win and you always need a bit of luck when facing Guardiola.

In 2009 we got a bit lucky at The Camp Nou with the Henry should have been pen alongside Eto'o and Bojan missing sitters (although noted Drogba missed one also). At Stamford Bridge we were anything but cautious and absolutely battered them, we all know why we didn't qualify that night.

2012 we sat back and they created chances at will, we couldn't have complained with a double figure reverse over two legs but the stars were finally on our side in CL.

In Conte's first season we were the inferior side up until the equalizer away, to which point we upped the intensity and they couldn't live with us (which kind of backs my point up). The home game i was on a flight and still haven't to this day watched it (goals aside) so can't comment.

[SUNZ 155]

Jorginho was substituted on Wednesday when we were trying to keep hold of our 2-1 lead. He faded really badly and couldn't keep pace with the game; Valencia players were running by him at will so the manager had to take him off. If I recall correctly, he contributed nothing of note during the game.

Yesterday he was taken off when we had to chase the game. Whatever it is that he is supposed to contribute, the manager felt wasn't required. Again, I cannot recall him doing anything positive in the first half, just his usual sideways and backwards passing. He tried to pass through the lines one time, it was easily intercepted and West Ham countered and nearly scored with a header.

So my question is: if we don't need him in either of these two scenarios (protecting a lead and chasing a game), and he contributes nothing in general play....what is his actual purpose?

[Fernando 6,375]

Think his form has dipped a bit. 

We need a replacement for him. 

If we want to control the game we need these type of creative players. 

[Bosnian Blue 2,471]

Like I always said, if we want to be a top team challenging for the biggest trophies there won't be a place for him in the starting XI. 

[Jase 43,479]

26 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Think his form has dipped a bit. 

hE dOeSnT nEeD tO rEsT. 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

He needs rest or rotation like most of the squad. Since City game we dont look fresh at all.

 Its important that all of Kante, Kovacic and Mount are fit, so we have two options for every position.