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5. Jorginho


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23 minutes ago, Miguelito said:

Why does it have to be one or the other? It's not black and white. They're totally different players.

Fab was much more of risk taker, brilliant creativity, long pass specialist. But he didn't control the tempo like jorginho does. He ran the show often but in a much different way. He was a decisive player who biggest impacts were often directly involved with goals.

Jorginho is a person who dictates tempo much more, keeps things flowing, creates a ton of space for teammates, but offers shorter passes. He is a player who's impact is often not directly involved with goals, but overall play.

You can appreciate both. I do. And I say that even though I wish gilmour would play more often over jorgi. No doubt jorgi has been brilliant since TT has taken over.

There's nothing stopping Jorginho from doing even half of what Fabregas did for us, especially when Jorginho himself has played those killer passes, albeit very rarely. 

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Part of me desperately want to see the people suffer a meltdown over Jorginho had he gone to Man City and done well under Guardiola. Those same fellas who are criticizing now would be the same ones ba

I'm fuckin ashamed at peeps booing Jorgi. Call themselves supporters. Why the fuck does he get singled out when all the other cunts play shit useless too? Such selective memories of some! I'm gon

He’s made the most forward passes in the PL so this is rubbish. Open up your mind, expand your football knowledge. Learn the regista role and what it’s meant to do, it’s function in a team. 

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13 minutes ago, oldportblue said:

agree about rudiger tbh...

I just feel their contributions have been been made to look better than they truly are because we have played teams that did not attack us, and that includes spurs who parked the bus and offered literally nothing going forward. The real tests will come in games v. teams that aren't afraid of going at us. If they continue playing well then, then fair enough and I will hold my hand up

Another consideration is that we are playing a back 3 at the moment, meaning Jorginho has a bit more protection to cover any of his defensive cock-ups, for example. What will happen when Tuchel switches to a back 4? 

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17 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

I dont know about all that but I for one will not compare the 2, non compatible....not similar at all. Im sure Jorgi will be good under TT but he will not be a Fab level player.

Their totally different playing styles and positions regardless. Ok Fabregas played deeper under Jose for a bit and with Conte in a MF 2 but under Wenger, Pep, the other Barcelona bosses and Del Bosque he was more of an advanced midfielder or even false 9 (more so for Spain at times after 2010) throughout the most of his career.

Comparing most modern day PL midfielders to Fabregas isnt fair either, Fabregas spent countless seasons in the PL and was always one of the best midfield players hands down without a shadow of a doubt, at Arsenal for a few seasons he was fantastic playing as the most advanced midfielder which eventually led to his move to Barca. Probably a modern day PL great, I mean if people consider the likes of Aguero, Kompany, Hazard boys like that then Fabregas is 1000% one, second top assists IIRC. His all round passing ability and final ball is something you rarely see now a days in central midfield players, he was always a threat with long passes in behind teams or short passes in behind teams. Midfield now seem to excel at one or the other. Not both. Bar a handful but these guys are the likes of De Bruyne, Thiago, Pogba and Fernandes. Who are top quality players.

But again Jorginho isnt a creative midfielder or even play in the same position Cesc has for the majority of his career. Its like comparing Kevin de Bruyne to Fernandinho. Two totally different players.

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10 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Their totally different playing styles and positions regardless. Ok Fabregas played deeper under Jose for a bit and with Conte in a MF 2 but under Wenger, Pep, the other Barcelona bosses and Del Bosque he was more of an advanced midfielder or even false 9 (more so for Spain at times after 2010) throughout the most of his career.

Comparing most modern day PL midfielders to Fabregas isnt fair either, Fabregas spent countless seasons in the PL and was always one of the best midfield players hands down without a shadow of a doubt, at Arsenal for a few seasons he was fantastic playing as the most advanced midfielder which eventually led to his move to Barca. Probably a modern day PL great, I mean if people consider the likes of Aguero, Kompany, Hazard boys like that then Fabregas is 1000% one, second top assists IIRC. His all round passing ability and final ball is something you rarely see now a days in central midfield players, he was always a threat with long passes in behind teams or short passes in behind teams. Midfield now seem to excel at one or the other. Not both. Bar a handful but these guys are the likes of De Bruyne, Thiago, Pogba and Fernandes. Who are top quality players.

But again Jorginho isnt a creative midfielder or even play in the same position Cesc has for the majority of his career. Its like comparing Kevin de Bruyne to Fernandinho. Two totally different players.

Yup exactly my point

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On 09/02/2021 at 14:56, Jason said:

There's nothing stopping Jorginho from doing even half of what Fabregas did for us, especially when Jorginho himself has played those killer passes, albeit very rarely. 

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

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41 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

Precisely. He has shown that he can play those defence splitting passes, accurate over the top passes etc but chooses not to most of the time. Decides to pass it sideways/backwards, giving opponents chance to get back into their shape and making it harder to break through them. Moreover, if Jorginho really is good at controlling the tempo, we wouldn't be having so many basketball-esque games. Couple that frustrating aspect of his game with his defensive side of the game, it's so painful to watch. For example in the game against Sheffield United, there were a number of times he was robbed off the ball so easily and then didn't have the pace or physicality to win it back. IIRC, Mikel used to get the same criticism with his passing but at the very least, he had a defensive presence about him, even if he might be a different player. Jorginho's passing is mostly unambitious and doesn't have any defensive presence about him. 

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On 09/02/2021 at 19:48, Jason said:

Can't compare? You have people talking about Jorginho's passing like it's so WOW when it's nowhere near that. Imagine thinking his passing and the passing range is good after seeing what Fabregas did for us. 

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

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On 10/02/2021 at 14:28, MoroccanBlue said:

I think the most shocking thing about Cesc was that his legs completely blew out in a matter of months. After the 2015 title win, he was genuinely a turtle. 

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

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21 minutes ago, Tomo said:

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

Don't be daft, Tomo...

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23 minutes ago, Tomo said:

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

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19 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

Pretty much from the off he was regularly bypassed in midfield off the ball, Swansea at home (Costa hattrick game) he specifically had a shocker defensively IIRC. 

Against any opposition of real note (especially away) Mou drafted Rami in and made it 433.

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24 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Against any opposition of real note (especially away) Mou drafted Rami in and made it 433.

Or move him to the #10 role, with 2 defensive midfielders behind me.

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3 hours ago, Jason said:

Precisely. He has shown that he can play those defence splitting passes, accurate over the top passes etc but chooses not to most of the time. Decides to pass it sideways/backwards, giving opponents chance to get back into their shape and making it harder to break through them. Moreover, if Jorginho really is good at controlling the tempo, we wouldn't be having so many basketball-esque games. Couple that frustrating aspect of his game with his defensive side of the game, it's so painful to watch. For example in the game against Sheffield United, there were a number of times he was robbed off the ball so easily and then didn't have the pace or physicality to win it back. IIRC, Mikel used to get the same criticism with his passing but at the very least, he had a defensive presence about him, even if he might be a different player. Jorginho's passing is mostly unambitious and doesn't have any defensive presence about him. 

Yep, we expected him to be like Mikel but with better, quicker passing. Now we have someone with Mikel like passing, but with none of the defensive nous.

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Chelsea are unbeaten in the last 18 games when Jorginho has started. 
 

Honestly it is incredible how Chelsea fans constantly moan and bitch about him when he hardly even featured during a terrible stretch that ultimately got Lampard fired.

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4 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Chelsea are unbeaten in the last 18 games when Jorginho has started. 

People are really clutching at straws when this specific stat is used to defend a player.

4 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Honestly it is incredible how Chelsea fans constantly moan and bitch about him when he hardly even featured during a terrible stretch that ultimately got Lampard fired.

So, you're saying that Jorginho could have been THE player to save Lampard's job? 🤨 He's been at the club for 2 1/2 years and the fact that we're still having arguments over his use says a lot. 

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40 minutes ago, Jason said:

People are really clutching at straws when this specific stat is used to defend a player.

Why? I think it was the Liverpool game back in September that we last lost with him starting? If so, that's impressive. If he was as bad as he's made out to be, then surely he would have cost us at least on game in 18?

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1 minute ago, manpe said:

Why? I think it was the Liverpool game back in September that we last lost with him starting? If so, that's impressive. If he was as bad as he's made out to be, then surely he would have cost us at least on game in 18?

Because it's selective? Because it doesn't tell the whole story? This is like when people were using the 18-game unbeaten run earlier run this season to defend Lampard and as a reason to not sack him.

Plus, it's not as if Jorginho just joined us last summer and has been our lucky charm. He's been here for 2.5 years and we have lost games with him starting. Would we have not lost had he started against say Man City or Leicester? He might not be directly responsible for the goals conceded etc had he started but he would still be part of a team that lost. What happens when we eventually lose games with him starting under Tuchel? Then what? What stat are people gonna use then?

If people want to defend Jorginho, by all means, go ahead but using the stat of us being unbeaten in his last 18 starts isn't convincing at all. 

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8 minutes ago, Jason said:

Because it's selective? Because it doesn't tell the whole story? This is like when people were using the 18-game unbeaten run earlier run this season to defend Lampard and as a reason to not sack him.

Plus, it's not as if Jorginho just joined us last summer and has been our lucky charm. He's been here for 2.5 years and we have lost games with him starting. Would we have not lost had he started against say Man City or Leicester? He might not be directly responsible for the goals conceded etc had he started but he would still be part of a team that lost. What happens when we eventually lose games with him starting under Tuchel? Then what? What stat are people gonna use then?

If people want to defend Jorginho, by all means, go ahead but using the stat of us being unbeaten in his last 18 starts isn't convincing at all. 

Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, I generally don't care about stats much except ones that matter. I'm not a fan of his, would rather have someone more mobile and more adventurous in forward passing. But it does tell that he's not as bad as he's portrayed by many fans, you would think he's Bakayoko level hopeless reading some of the stuff on the internet... well if he was, we would have lost much more.

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