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5. Jorginho


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9 minutes ago, Jason said:

I don't think Jorginho is a Gattuso type player.

Moreover, Jorginho still has 3 years left on his contract. No way Marina is gonna let him go for around 30-40 million only. 

I think Marina will have to be flexible. If SFL is going for a 433 with two No.8's then there is no place for Jorgi in the squad as you need a No.4 who can cover the ground. 

 

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Part of me desperately want to see the people suffer a meltdown over Jorginho had he gone to Man City and done well under Guardiola. Those same fellas who are criticizing now would be the same ones ba

I'm fuckin ashamed at peeps booing Jorgi. Call themselves supporters. Why the fuck does he get singled out when all the other cunts play shit useless too? Such selective memories of some! I'm gon

He’s made the most forward passes in the PL so this is rubbish. Open up your mind, expand your football knowledge. Learn the regista role and what it’s meant to do, it’s function in a team. 

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Just now, King Kante said:

I think Marina will have to be flexible. If SFL is going for a 433 with two No.8's then there is no place for Jorgi in the squad as you need a No.4 who can cover the ground. 

But is there anything stopping Lampard from keeping Jorginho around as a squad option? 

There is no guarantee we will sign Declan Rice and Kante gets injured like 50% of the time these days.

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22 minutes ago, Jason said:

But is there anything stopping Lampard from keeping Jorginho around as a squad option? 

There is no guarantee we will sign Declan Rice and Kante gets injured like 50% of the time these days.

Exactly. Plus it gives Gilmour less pressure to develop into his position as well in the longer run as we will still have a more reliable experienced head who can fill in and start certain games without putting too much pressure on him if he doesnt do as well as he did in his first 2 starts, which will always be a point mentioned if he doesnt do overly well or even still plays good but not to that level. 

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1 hour ago, Jason said:

But is there anything stopping Lampard from keeping Jorginho around as a squad option? 

There is no guarantee we will sign Declan Rice and Kante gets injured like 50% of the time these days.

No. The problem would be, does SFL even want him as a squad player? I mean the only reason he has got back in is due to injuries to both Gilmour and Kante. In a Corvid world is it wise to keep a player you could get £30m+ and pay £100k a week to be the 3rd No.4? This goes double when you're also trying to rebuild your squad.

From the outside looking in, it appears SFL wants to have a different make up in CM, even though it is probably our strongest area in terms of individuals. However, to make any serious moves he will need to probably shift 2-3 players. Personally I see him sticking with 433 but will want more fluidity. I would be surprised if he attempted something like: 

No.8 (No.10 in a 4231) - Harvetz + Barkley/RLC (I imagine Barkley would be the one to be culled) 

No.6 - Mount + Kova 

No.4 - Gilmour + Kante (or new player if someone offers crazy money for Kante.) 

I mean if he does want to go for an attacking No.6 and a No.4 that covers the ground, then I do not see where Jorgi fits. Further, in such a situation I also do not see both Barkley and RLC lasting long as you would just need the one of them. So, that is two players that need to be sold minimum, with Jorgi being the least likely of the three to survive*. 

*this is also before we get to a situation where someone offers good money for Kante. 

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2 hours ago, King Kante said:

No. The problem would be, does SFL even want him as a squad player? I mean the only reason he has got back in is due to injuries to both Gilmour and Kante. In a Corvid world is it wise to keep a player you could get £30m+ and pay £100k a week to be the 3rd No.4? This goes double when you're also trying to rebuild your squad.

From the outside looking in, it appears SFL wants to have a different make up in CM, even though it is probably our strongest area in terms of individuals. However, to make any serious moves he will need to probably shift 2-3 players. Personally I see him sticking with 433 but will want more fluidity. I would be surprised if he attempted something like: 

No.8 (No.10 in a 4231) - Harvetz + Barkley/RLC (I imagine Barkley would be the one to be culled) 

No.6 - Mount + Kova 

No.4 - Gilmour + Kante (or new player if someone offers crazy money for Kante.) 

I mean if he does want to go for an attacking No.6 and a No.4 that covers the ground, then I do not see where Jorgi fits. Further, in such a situation I also do not see both Barkley and RLC lasting long as you would just need the one of them. So, that is two players that need to be sold minimum, with Jorgi being the least likely of the three to survive*. 

*this is also before we get to a situation where someone offers good money for Kante. 

That's the thing. We don't know what exactly is on Lampard's mind (if you want to believe his words, he said something along the lines that Jorginho is important in the team recently). People are just assuming Jorginho will be sold because of the lineups since the restart but we have also seen that putting Kante in the DM role is like square pegs in round holes and Gilmour isn't quite ready yet, despite the hype. Moreover Kante can't seem to stay consistently fit these days and Gilmour won't be back until October and he will then need time to get back into things. 

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13 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/7/17/21328060/jorginho

 

Loved this. Shows how much overhyped jorginho is. Should be one of the first names out.

1. It's hard to take the author seriously when he tends to ramble a lot and he seems to have an agenda on Jorginho.

2. Seems a tad convenient that the article came out now, focusing on Jorginho's recent struggles because he is not starting games. Where was this when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI?

3. Hard to take the author seriously when this sentence exists in the article:

Most of the time Kovačić, Barkley or Loftus-Cheek will muscle off their way on the turn to get forward. This is what makes them special players.

BARKLEY? SPECIAL PLAYER!? 

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27 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/7/17/21328060/jorginho

 

Loved this. Shows how much overhyped jorginho is. Should be one of the first names out.

Thanks for sharing the article. Great read. And although the article is biased and focuses primarily on Jorginho's shortcomings, I think it raises very important points. Not sure the Jorginho fanbase is gonna enjoy this one though as the writer doesnt try to ease them in accepting it.

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2 minutes ago, Rapkun said:

Thanks for sharing the article. Great read. And although the article is biased and focuses primarily on Jorginho's shortcomings, I think it raises very important points. Not sure the Jorginho fanbase is gonna enjoy this one though as the writer doesnt try to ease them in accepting it.

lol No one is crazy enough to think that Jorginho doesn't have his flaws. They have been mentioned here more times than one could remember but it's so clear that the author has an agenda (and not just saying this based on the article) and the article focuses only the negative aspects. And as I pointed out, where was this article when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI and Lampard was praising him almost every week?

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14 minutes ago, Jason said:

1. It's hard to take the author seriously when he tends to ramble a lot and he seems to have an agenda on Jorginho.

2. Seems a tad convenient that the article came out now, focusing on Jorginho's recent struggles because he is not starting games. Where was this when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI?

3. Hard to take the author seriously when this sentence exists in the article:

 

 

BARKLEY? SPECIAL PLAYER!? 

I still think selling Jorginho will be a mistake. 

Regardless of if we end up signing Declan Rice or not. I don't see Rice as an outstanding midfielder or central defender, good perhaps but he still needs to do a lot more for me to be considered as someone who will come here and make a huge huge difference and warrant the fee.

Also I do hope that Frank and the club arent going to go mad and sign up every half decent English player for crazy money when there is clearly better value out there in foreign players still as we’ve seen with Werner and Ziyech. As we could potentially see with Tagliaco or Onana or Van der Beek or whoever else. I mean what are we talking Rice - 70m, Chilwell - 75m, look at how much Maguire went for as well - 80m. Good players but hardly worth that sort of outlay at this present moment and you could probably find a handful of guys in other European leagues just as good for half the price. I mean we have been linked with signing Nick Pope, which would be a shrewd move if he is our number 2 as he has proved himself in the PL and is very very solid but again I dont think he would make a real difference in the starting 11 week in week out and be a big improvement on Kepa - who people seem to want to throw to the wolves without remembering he has had good performances this season also as well as a very good debut campaign last year.

I mean I don’t grudge us paying 70/75m for Havertz because he is an outstanding talent but those guys mentioned before arent going to be on the sort of level he is in the next 2 or 3 years if he keeps following this trajectory. This may be the Scotsman in me but realistically there aren’t many English players I would say are worth 70/75m or more at present bar Harry Kane, Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho, Joe Gomez, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Raheem Sterling. Maybe if Jordan Henderson was 5 years younger he would be valued at that in present day. 

I get having a homegrown core in the squad but surely the academy boys should be that core and a few exceptional homegrown players if we can get them. Rice has more of a chance than Chilwell IMO but I think he still has to prove himself more. He has played virtually every week with West Ham as a DM or as a CB and their league position shows that they have been poor at keeping the ball out. So how people think signing him for 70m will make a massive difference to our backline or midfield when he cannot vastly improve West Hams is odd, if he was playing to the level Virgil van Dijk was at Southampton or Kante was at Leicester then I could see the argument but for me he hasnt been anywhere near close. They have conceded 59 goals, the joint 4th most goals conceded this season. 4 more than last season.

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3 minutes ago, Jason said:

lol No one is crazy enough to think that Jorginho doesn't have his flaws. They have been mentioned here more times than one could remember but it's so clear that the author has an agenda (and not just saying this based on the article) and the article focuses only the negative aspects. And as I pointed out, where was this article when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI and Lampard was praising him almost every week?

The article is close to an attempt at making fun of the player. You would think Jorginho is not good enough to play in the lower leagues after reading this. It's a shame because it's still one of the best pieces I've read about the player.

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3 hours ago, Jason said:

That's the thing. We don't know what exactly is on Lampard's mind (if you want to believe his words, he said something along the lines that Jorginho is important in the team recently). People are just assuming Jorginho will be sold because of the lineups since the restart but we have also seen that putting Kante in the DM role is like square pegs in round holes and Gilmour isn't quite ready yet, despite the hype. Moreover Kante can't seem to stay consistently fit these days and Gilmour won't be back until October and he will then need time to get back into things. 

Well of course. None of us on here know exactly what is going on, so we just speculate. However, for me, of all the CM's I am of the opinion that Jorginho (well actually maybe Barkley but I count him more of a squad player) is the most vulnerable. 

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1 minute ago, King Kante said:

Well of course. None of us on here know exactly what is going on, so we just speculate. However, for me, of all the CM's I am of the opinion that Jorginho (well actually maybe Barkley but I count him more of a squad player) is the most vulnerable. 

If the logic is Jorginho will be sold because he hasn't played much since the restart, then I guess Barkley will not be sold - even if we get Havertz - because he has been playing a lot since the restart? 

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

1. It's hard to take the author seriously when he tends to ramble a lot and he seems to have an agenda on Jorginho.

2. Seems a tad convenient that the article came out now, focusing on Jorginho's recent struggles because he is not starting games. Where was this when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI?

3. Hard to take the author seriously when this sentence exists in the article:

 

 

BARKLEY? SPECIAL PLAYER!? 

Don't know if we can say we were playing "well". Getting opened so easily. 9 losses in 28 games. 

Also, there were a lot of jorginho critiques before the whole fiasco too.

 

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4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Don't know if we can say we were playing "well". Getting opened so easily. 9 losses in 28 games. 

It's about the overall play. There was much more fluidity, movement in our attacks. It was certainly more eye catching and better than what we have produced of late. We have basically gone from looking like an all-rounded team to Pulisic FC. 

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Also, there were a lot of jorginho critiques before the whole fiasco too.

Fiasco? As I said above, no one is crazy to think Jorginho doesn't have his flaws but the timing of the article is all too convenient and is extremely biased toward a point of view. 

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23 minutes ago, Jason said:

It's about the overall play. There was much more fluidity, movement in our attacks. It was certainly more eye catching and better than what we have produced of late. We have basically gone from looking like an all-rounded team to Pulisic FC. 

Fiasco? As I said above, no one is crazy to think Jorginho doesn't have his flaws but the timing of the article is all too convenient and is extremely biased toward a point of view. 

How was it easy on the eye when the same thing kept happening again and again?

I think we have forgotten how poor we had it at end of Nov to around Feb. The losses to whu, Everton, soton, bournemouth. 4 losses in 6 games. All of them following the same script. 

 

Yes, the article is biased, but that's fine. If one has an opinion, then they should try to delve to find out proof if their opinion has any merit. This does. All this "jorginho helps us playing beuatiful football", is pointless when that football is mostly pedestrian and the same football finds it difficult to break down low blocks (which has been our Achilles heel this season). 

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4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

How was it easy on the eye when the same thing kept happening again and again?

I think we have forgotten how poor we had it at end of Nov to around Feb. The losses to whu, Everton, soton, bournemouth. 4 losses in 6 games. All of them following the same script. 

What about August to October? If Jorginho is really shit as you keep on saying it, then why Lampard kept on playing him?

5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Yes, the article is biased, but that's fine. If one has an opinion, then they should try to delve to find out proof if their opinion has any merit.

How is biased opinion fine when that person only looks at a single point of view? Not even looking at the topic objectively and say compare the pros and cons etc. Moreover and as I keep pointing out, why do the article now? Why at this convenient time and not say, months ago?

8 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

All this "jorginho helps us playing beuatiful football", is pointless when that football is mostly pedestrian and the same football finds it difficult to break down low blocks (which has been our Achilles heel this season). 

No one saying is Jorginho is the sole reason between us playing beautiful football and shit football but he was clearly an important cog in our fluid midfield with Kovacic and Mount earlier this season. 

Right, it's clearly all Jorginho's fault that we couldn't beat those teams. It's clearly his fault that our defenders and keeper can't keep goals out to save their lives. It's his fault that our attackers couldn't put away chances. 

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6 hours ago, Jason said:

What about August to October? If Jorginho is really shit as you keep on saying it, then why Lampard kept on playing him?

How is biased opinion fine when that person only looks at a single point of view? Not even looking at the topic objectively and say compare the pros and cons etc. Moreover and as I keep pointing out, why do the article now? Why at this convenient time and not say, months ago?

No one saying is Jorginho is the sole reason between us playing beautiful football and shit football but he was clearly an important cog in our fluid midfield with Kovacic and Mount earlier this season. 

Right, it's clearly all Jorginho's fault that we couldn't beat those teams. It's clearly his fault that our defenders and keeper can't keep goals out to save their lives. It's his fault that our attackers couldn't put away chances. 

Lampard kept playing because we literally did not have players to fill in. Kante kept getting injured, rlc was injured. Mount had to play winger as CHO was injured, puli needed time to settle in. We literally did not have mids. We were good from August to Oct. But that's the point, once the teams figured us and jorginho out, it was not only easy to stop us, but counter the shit out of us. Jorginho was/is targetted by most teams.

 

Why do you think this is the only article out there? These articles about jorginho's flaws have been coming out one after another since his sarri days. 

 

Obviously, it's not "only" his fault. But like you said, "he is an important cog" for our beautiful football, similarly he is an important cog of our defensive prowess. As for pros and cons, what's the point of a list when people want to absolve a defensive midfielder for all his defensive frailities because "he can keep the ball ticking". He makes our already poor defense look way worse. As for attack, can't score, can't assist, hell does not even have a great passing range. I mean what are the pros that I supposed to be talking about here? 

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9 hours ago, Jason said:

lol No one is crazy enough to think that Jorginho doesn't have his flaws. They have been mentioned here more times than one could remember but it's so clear that the author has an agenda (and not just saying this based on the article) and the article focuses onlyana the negative aspects. And as I pointed out, where was this article when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI and Lampard was praising him almost every week?

Just to share an anecdote on this.

I "know" this poster from a french forum where he used to post a lot before he moved on (maybe 8-10 years ago). He's always had very insightful analysis and you could tell he had a very analytical view of football, but he's always had a huge bias towards certain players. He would either have scapegoats he would always try to demolish, or on the contrary he would try to convince you some ok players were god-tier.

He was both respected for his analytical skills, and slightly made fun of because everybody knew he was extremely biased.

More specifically on Jorginho, it clear for everyone to see from the get-go that he completely dislikes Jorgi  and would do anything to try and prove his point that Jorginho sucks. He just highlighted specific plays from only one game where Jorginho had a really poor game and tried to make it look like this is the case for all games and that's the player Jorgi is.

On the top of my head, he said that Jorginho is bad under pressure and put two clips where he lost the ball to try and prove his point. I think most of us will agree he's not bad under pressure, quite the contrary.

 

 

 

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I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

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