Jorginho

[Henrique 9,133]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

Okay putting aside Sarri's fondness of Jorginho, can we at least cut the latter some slack?

1. This is Jorginho's first season in English football and before anyone brings up his fee, it's still a whole different league and environment and it's quite likely that he is still adjusting to the demands here.

Well, this is used many times as a excuse for flops...but give me just one example of a Chelsea player in past 10 years that was a flop in the first season, then became a great player after the period of adaptation? I don't remember a single one. Even outside Chelsea I won't remember a name.

[Unionjack 7,531]

As peeps love to continually say about Eden is a player can only be as good as the players around him.

If our most creative player and best passer doesn;t have targets to pass to then what can he do?

[Henrique 9,133]

10 minutes ago, Mana said:

Drogba. I’ve seen this name pop up many times when I make similar arguments.

 

EDIT: oh you said 10 years. Nevermind.

Drogba was far from a "flop" in his first season. Actually I don't remember someone ever calling him a "Chelsea flop". Saying Droga was a "flop" in the first season is just baseless revisionism. 

[Unionjack 7,531]

1 minute ago, Henrique said:

Drogba was far from a "flop" in his first season. Actually I don't remember someone ever calling him a "Chelsea flop". 

Never a flop. But certainly lit no fires that 1st season did he.

 

[Superblue 6,331]

9 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Well, this is used many times as a excuse for flops...but give me just one example of a Chelsea player in past 10 years that was a flop in the first season, then became a great player after the period of adaptation? I don't remember a single one. Even outside Chelsea I won't remember a name.

 

4 minutes ago, Mana said:

Drogba. I’ve seen this name pop up many times when I make similar arguments.

 

EDIT: oh you said 10 years. Nevermind.

There were a lot around that time - Makelele, Drogba, Essien, Ashley Cole all had ordinary first seasons and became great players.

Different circumstances because they were probably not brought as first choice immediately but Ivanovic and Azpilicueta I would say because excellent and very important players following a period of adaptation.

But you are right that at Chelsea there is very few examples in recent years of players becoming great following a period adapting. However I would argue that some of that comes down to the culture at the club that we seem very quick to judge a player and cast him off. I would not at all be surprised if Sarri were to get sacked this season at some time, we would then see Jorginho out on loan somewhere next season.

Compare this to clubs with a longer term vision and a manager more comfortable in their position and some players have been afforded time to adapt. It's not a full season but Klopp kept Robertson and Fabinho out of his side until he was comfortable that they were ready and accustomed to how he wanted to play. Fabinho in particular was a great example given the money spent on him and the pressures on Klopp to play him.

Outside the club the biggest example would be De Gea. I would argue Bernardo Silva looked pretty average last season and has kicked on massively this season. There are examples but you are right they are few and far between nowadays.

[Henrique 9,133]

Just now, Unionjack said:

Never a flop. But certainly lit no fires that 1st season did he.

 

I think people tend to look back at Didier as a player he never was. I mean, Didier played 8 full seasons between 2004 and 2012. Only during 2 of those 8 season (06/07 and 09/10) Didier was scored more than 12 league goals. Didier never was a killer goalscorer. His impact in the game was bigger than scoring goals. In my opinion Drogba's first season was pretty much at the same level as his subsequent seasons. Diego Costa is the only true killer CF of the Abramovich era.

[Henrique 9,133]

8 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

 

There were a lot around that time - Makelele, Drogba, Essien, Ashley Cole all had ordinary first seasons and became great players.

Different circumstances because they were probably not brought as first choice immediately but Ivanovic and Azpilicueta I would say because excellent and very important players following a period of adaptation.

But you are right that at Chelsea there is very few examples in recent years of players becoming great following a period adapting. However I would argue that some of that comes down to the culture at the club that we seem very quick to judge a player and cast him off. I would not at all be surprised if Sarri were to get sacked this season at some time, we would then see Jorginho out on loan somewhere next season.

Compare this to clubs with a longer term vision and a manager more comfortable in their position and some players have been afforded time to adapt. It's not a full season but Klopp kept Robertson and Fabinho out of his side until he was comfortable that they were ready and accustomed to how he wanted to play. Fabinho in particular was a great example given the money spent on him and the pressures on Klopp to play him.

Outside the club the biggest example would be De Gea. I would argue Bernardo Silva looked pretty average last season and has kicked on massively this season. There are examples but you are right they are few and far between nowadays.

I see where you are coming from, but in my books Jorginho is not having an "ordinary" season. Barkley is having an ordinary season, but I see Jorginho as a flop and 100% disaster of a signing. I mean, I don't know how some people can't realize this guy is a DM that is useless when the team is defending. He is not a CB or a striker (perhaps the positions that are more punishing in terms of revealing the player's mistakes and weakness), but I would say only Bakayoko and Morata prevents Jorginho from being the worst signing of past 10 years.

About the "long term vision" I think Jorginho playing game after game is more related with Sarri than the clubs long term vision. Its never a good idea when a new manager arrive in a new club and bring a new player as someone that is essential for the team.

[Clockwork 1,762]

In a game where we had Zero shot on target, coincided two goals basically from set plays, and this forum fuming over Jorginho. lol. 

[LAM09 6,531]

In a game where we had Zero shot on target, coincided two goals basically from set plays, and this forum fuming over Jorginho. lol. 

Have you not seen match day threads for the last few months?

Complaints about him have been voiced for sometime & rightly so. 90% of this board are left wondering, what he offers to the team.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1 hour ago, Clockwork said:

In a game where we had Zero shot on target, coincided two goals basically from set plays, and this forum fuming over Jorginho. lol. 

Hmm. People are fumming over many players.

Over strikers, over Willian, Pedro, Kovacic, Alonso, Barkley,...they are all underperforming and rightfuly are being called out.

Just because our attack is shite, it doesnt excuse Jorginho underperforming. 

Same goes to Hazard, Kante, Azpi or anyone else. But difference is they have been great servants for the club and have some credit. Jorginho on other hand doesnt and the jury is out.

[dimmas 123]

Im just try to imagine if busquet even he still in his prime to play in this jorginho role. He could possibly get slaughtered aswell in this forum

Play alongside, so many poor player to play in this system

- fullback from both side which hardly give enough support when we attack, rarely have good positioning, really really poor to provide width, and really slow as fuck it really iritates me

- imagine busquet playing alongside kovavic/barkley and kante, what he can do actually

- and only have pedro the only one attacker in this team, who able to make diagonal run

[Jase 43,479]

6 hours ago, Henrique said:

Well, this is used many times as a excuse for flops...but give me just one example of a Chelsea player in past 10 years that was a flop in the first season, then became a great player after the period of adaptation? I don't remember a single one. Even outside Chelsea I won't remember a name.

Can't remember a name or don't want to because it doesn't suit you?

Think all the points mentioned are fair. Any rational manager would take Jorginho out of the firing line, to rest him, to give him time to settle or whatever. But nope, Sarri has just been blindly playing him week in week out with the same tactics, same formation etc, watching him get exposed and doing nothing about it. It's the manager's job to fit the players into a system that maximize the players' capabilities and make sure the players' weaknesses are hidden as much as possible. 

[ccheongf 211]

Sari introduced something new to Chelsea and Jorginho acted as a starter BUT now everybody knows of his weakness and knows how to neutralised him ,so he is not effective anymore. Sari still insist of the same pattern and formation. EPL is fast and furious, tough and rough. Every player must be able to stand the knock and bang. LIke Morata, he cant survive in EPL because he cant stand on his 2 feet ,more time on the ground than standing.For an effective Chelsea, attacks must be from wings and midfiled creating chances. Now dont see many, if Hazard doesnt perform well tht match, well , a DRAW is a gain fro tht game.Now Sari is taking his anger to the press. chelsea is DEAD again and losing CHAMPION LEAGUE again next season.

[mccg 1,528]

Sunday Supplement: Chelsea should not be building a team around Jorginho

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/11612606/sunday-supplement-chelsea-should-not-be-building-a-team-around-jorginho

[Superblue 6,331]

Ironically if City had tied up Jorginho quicker, and we had still managed to bring Sarri in I think he would have used Fabregas heavily in that role this season and I think it would have worked with him better.

[mccg 1,528]

Rio Ferdinand slams ‘useless’ Chelsea and Italy star

https://www.calciomercato.com/en/news/rio-ferdinand-slams-useless-chelsea-and-italy-star-82059

[DDA 9,570]

His confidence has gone. At Napoli he played in tight spaces like a G. Now he struggles to control the ball. He can't handle the amount of games he is having to play. He needs a rest but his confidence has definitely gone. When you hit as many passes as he does to thin air because nobody wants to run into the spaces then slowly but surely you feel like you are the problem. His close control could rival Lukakus at this moment in time. Believe it or not I actually think he has regressed as a player having played alongside the likes of Willian and co. We need a back up option a.s.a.p.

[Arlen Correa 147]

I dont buy this narrative of blaming other players when this guys can't control a ball. He looks like a table-football player these days.