Sarri But Not Sarri Thread

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Point I was trying to make was that he isnt any better in creativity than any other DM, while being way behind in defensive aspects. 

That why I believe his job could be done by number of players who would also give better defensive cover.

Busquets is excellent in defense, Xavi, Iniesta were superb creators, Xabi Alonso was quality defensive CM with playmaking abilities.

Jorginho is very average defender due to his pace and phyisical limitations. But he is decent marker, I give you that. However his offensive output isnt any better than your usual DM in other teams like Fernandinho, Neves, Rodri, Busquets etc. 

He doesnt have a great quality to make him stand out as some want him to picture. He can do it all, but nothing realy exceptional.

The question is does he realy offer that much in set up that outweights how poor our defense looks with him in the centre. 

Hell even average team like cardiff can completely annihilate our defense when they go on counter. We literaly have no midfield because everyone stays up and isnt fast enough to recover, except Kante. Once we get proper fullbacks, I excpect that to improve, but its all about balance. 

I mentioned Hazard because some point out Jorginho doesnt have any assist because of our finishers. Sure we dont have great finishers, but if Jorginho was actual deep playmaker, he would set up way more chances and at least couple would end up in a goal. But with less than one chance per game, odds are smaller. You win game by creating chance after chance, you dont count that you will create that one chance every game and attackers will score it. The odds are small there. You have to create and create to bring odds in your favour. Thats why it makes no sense in saying Jorginho doesnt have assists because strikers dont finish chances. He doesnt have assists because he attempts a creative pass few times every game.

Even in defensive attributes comparing him to Fernandinho, who is decent enough defensively is still mad because I dont think I have ever seen a player get away with so many cheap tactical fouls when they get in behind him. Which does happen quite a lot too.

Jorginho isnt played there as a defensive player which is another point. He isnt poor defensively but he isnt particularly great either but hes there because our team want to be proactive with the ball, want to control the game and him playing there is a huge reason as to why we can do so because he always makes options to recieve the ball, can play between the lines and also helps playing out from the back too. That is why I felt the whole argument about Sarri not playing Kante there the first games of the sesson were pointless because we wouldnt be able to get out as effecticely and wouldnt make it into the oppositions half so quickly (as well as Kante never actually playing as a fixed defensive midfielder in his entire career either). 

Jorginho has set up chances or made passes and between bad finishing and poor control/not getting onto them, he hasnt got any assists. Higuain has had at least 3 chances from Jorginho passes that I can think of and he would have definitely scored them if he was fitter and sharper. As well as one or two I can think of for Callum as well. Just because his stats say 0 assists doesnt mean he refuses to play forward or doesnt actually contribute anything else. This whole situation is like the Mikel scenario from years ago, people overlooked what he actually did because he didnt score or assist.

I wonder if we had signed Modric under AVB if people would criticize him too for also not scoring or assisting enough. Or if Josh had made the breakthrough if there would still be the same attitude towards him as there is to Jorginho, which I think stems from the fact Sarri hasnt exactly got things working and people are frustrated so they are making him a scapegoat, like when he got boo'd a few months ago shamelessly by our fans who also have boo'd Sarri a lot mainly everytime he makes a sub over the last 2 months.

Also it can take just one creative pass to score a goal. Its not like Jorginho never has passed forward either that or youve not been watching close enough.

11 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

He isnt as great defensively as he was, but in prime he was excellent. His ball qualities are also unbelievable for a DM indeed. His composure is perhaps one of worlds best. Last season they almost went undefeated in laliga, thanks to him, Stegen, Umtiti and even Pique. 

He was never fast indeed, but his positioning was quality and he is decently tall and strong, something Jorginho is not. Matic was slow too but I had nothing to say against him because he was still very strong, proper DM for a while. 

Its part you need as a DM. Either movement, speed, strenght etc. Jorginho has neither and if he was superb creator, it would make sense to have him, but he racks average numbers in PL. 

So what exactly Jorginho has to be considered special? He is average defender, average creator and his is nowhere near reliable as I thought. He makes stupid pass/loses possesion in dangerous area every game. He is good, not world class marker and passer but that alone shouldnt make him undisputed starter. 

He isnt exactly purely a creator or purely a defensive midfielder though. He is someone who controls/dictates the tempo of a match, they called him a regista in Italy. There have been games where he has played very well defensively but those games have been when we as a team have pressed well, which is another thing that would expose any player when everyone isnt on the same page.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

21 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Even in defensive attributes comparing him to Fernandinho, who is decent enough defensively is still mad because I dont think I have ever seen a player get away with so many cheap tactical fouls when they get in behind him. Which does happen quite a lot too.

Jorginho isnt played there as a defensive player which is another point. He isnt poor defensively but he isnt particularly great either but hes there because our team want to be proactive with the ball, want to control the game and him playing there is a huge reason as to why we can do so because he always makes options to recieve the ball, can play between the lines and also helps playing out from the back too. That is why I felt the whole argument about Sarri not playing Kante there the first games of the sesson were pointless because we wouldnt be able to get out as effecticely and wouldnt make it into the oppositions half so quickly (as well as Kante never actually playing as a fixed defensive midfielder in his entire career either). 

Jorginho has set up chances or made passes and between bad finishing and poor control/not getting onto them, he hasnt got any assists. Higuain has had at least 3 chances from Jorginho passes that I can think of and he would have definitely scored them if he was fitter and sharper. As well as one or two I can think of for Callum as well. Just because his stats say 0 assists doesnt mean he refuses to play forward or doesnt actually contribute anything else. This whole situation is like the Mikel scenario from years ago, people overlooked what he actually did because he didnt score or assist.

I wonder if we had signed Modric under AVB if people would criticize him too for also not scoring or assisting enough. Or if Josh had made the breakthrough if there would still be the same attitude towards him as there is to Jorginho, which I think stems from the fact Sarri hasnt exactly got things working and people are frustrated so they are making him a scapegoat, like when he got boo'd a few months ago shamelessly by our fans who also have boo'd Sarri a lot mainly everytime he makes a sub over the last 2 months.

Also it can take just one creative pass to score a goal. Its not like Jorginho never has passed forward either that or youve not been watching close enough.

He isnt exactly purely a creator or purely a defensive midfielder though. He is someone who controls/dictates the tempo of a match, they called him a regista in Italy. There have been games where he has played very well defensively but those games have been when we as a team have pressed well, which is another thing that would expose any player when everyone isnt on the same page.

Yeah but does his contribution outweight the defensive liability?

Sarri needed technical DM, it makes sense for not playing Kante there. But why we didnt go for someone like Rodri then who offers that + defensive stability?

I honestly expected more from Jorginho, but he realy dissapointed. Dont realy care about assists or goals from him that much, but he definately isnt as influental in set up as I expected. Neither is he as reliable as I expected, its shoking how many times he gives the ball away in dangerous positions. Last but not least, he got easily read by most PL sides and then he cant do anything which results in entire team being shit.

If you depend so much on one player and that player can be stopped so easily, whats next? 

[Vesper 27,282]

we just passed some Cypress club and now the number one in team in the world (literally the world, all top tier pro leagues) for most minutes played per game as a percentage by foreign players

thats crazy

it will go down with CHO and RLC playing more, but I am sure we finish year at top

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

29 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Yeah but does his contribution outweight the defensive liability?

Sarri needed technical DM, it makes sense for not playing Kante there. But why we didnt go for someone like Rodri then who offers that + defensive stability?

I honestly expected more from Jorginho, but he realy dissapointed. Dont realy care about assists or goals from him that much, but he definately isnt as influental in set up as I expected. Neither is he as reliable as I expected, its shoking how many times he gives the ball away in dangerous positions. Last but not least, he got easily read by most PL sides and then he cant do anything which results in entire team being shit.

If you depend so much on one player and that player can be stopped so easily, whats next? 

For a team that has 70% of the ball most matches I dont think him being a defensive liability as youve called him is as big an issue as you make out. He isnt that big a liability defensively, sure if players get by him physically hes not that fast or strong but liability is a bit overkill, Fernandinho has this a lot but hes experienced enough to know when to make mulitple (and multiple is probably the right word) tactical fouls. 

Those guys are technical yes but not players who play as a fixed defensive midfield position in a 3 man midfield. Pjanic isnt a particularly gifted defensive minded midfield player but he has played that role Jorginho does for us but his defensive frailities, never mentioned because Juve win every week. Because he has Khedira and Bentacur doing donkey work for him.

Its also hard for me to understand why people only pinpoint the whole blame that the team struggles when Jorginho is manmarked purely on Jorginho too. Is it his fault hes marked? Should we buy 11 Jorginhos next time? I think its hilarious that when he gets manmarked people still blame him for underperforming or not being as influential. Others have to step up and that is a fact. Sure Luiz can help with his passing but you need your other midfielders to take the load off the guy whos being manmarked. Kroos and Modric at Real are great examples, both comfortable deeper or higher up. Even Pirlo struggled against us when Oscar man marked him years ago.

Man marking somebody is more or less a sign of respect basicslly along the lines of "we know your a very good and very important player so we need to stop you". Do you think many teams would have especially man marked somebody who as youve put it blunty "job can be done by anybody"? Even then you've mentioned Henderson, Fernandinho and whoever else, when was the last time they were ever man marked in a full 90 minutes game? 

Also you said you dont care about Jorginho getting goals and assists basically after criticizing him for having 0 assists and not creating more chances several posts ago? And not influential? Look how many times a game Jorginho touches the ball. Look how many touches hes had all season. Hes maybe not influental in the way Eden is but its wrong to assume he isnt influential in anyway. He wouldnt have made as many touches or as many passes if he wasnt influential in some way with regards to how we play.

[Vesper 27,282]

5 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Always funny when people bring up Neves, because from what I've heard from Wolves fans is that he is pretty poor defensively. 

he is no Kante or Casemiro, but is he is streets beyond Jorginho defensively

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

we just passed some Cypress club and now the number one in team in the world (literally the world, all top tier pro leagues) for most minutes played per game as a percentage by foreign players

thats crazy

it will go down with CHO and RLC playing more, but I am sure we finish year at top

Great..where's the trophy?! 

[Superblue 6,331]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

we just passed some Cypress club and now the number one in team in the world (literally the world, all top tier pro leagues) for most minutes played per game as a percentage by foreign players

thats crazy

it will go down with CHO and RLC playing more, but I am sure we finish year at top

Arsenal hoping to just sneak top 4 as per usual.

[MoroccanBlue 5,194]

15 hours ago, Vesper said:

he is no Kante or Casemiro, but is he is streets beyond Jorginho defensively

Yet no doubt if Neves was here like some want, people would be slating his defensive frailties 

[Henrique 9,133]

After watching United vs Barcelona, to be honest I rather have Sarri Ball than the boring game of United. If you are going to lose and play boring football, at last let the team have a bit of ball possession...

[Fernando 6,375]

2 hours ago, Henrique said:

After watching United vs Barcelona, to be honest I rather have Sarri Ball than the boring game of United. If you are going to lose and play boring football, at last let the team have a bit of ball possession...

United screw up by appointing Solksjaer as permanent. 

Should have gone all for Pochetino in the summer. 

What we saw with United was the new manager bounce effect. We have witness that many times her at Chelsea. 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

2 hours ago, Henrique said:

After watching United vs Barcelona, to be honest I rather have Sarri Ball than the boring game of United. If you are going to lose and play boring football, at last let the team have a bit of ball possession...

They have shitload of cash and they still play Young/Valencia at RB. Similar to our situation with Alonso on LB. 

How can these guys get into starting 11 for the past 2 years, who knows.

[quickpassnmove 924]

7 hours ago, Henrique said:

After watching United vs Barcelona, to be honest I rather have Sarri Ball than the boring game of United. If you are going to lose and play boring football, at last let the team have a bit of ball possession...

meh, they were just ineffective up top and Shaw made mistakes.

Fred and McTominey both played well along with Young.

United's forward line has been questionable or ineffective for a while --esp. centre forward. Barca has decent enough cohesion and experience to prevent disasters at the back --even though they really could have blown it a few times in that match.

Pogba, Dalot, and Lukaku weren't good enough to make United dangerous yesterday. Rashford is inconsistent.

 

[Strike 6,958]

8 hours ago, Henrique said:

After watching United vs Barcelona, to be honest I rather have Sarri Ball than the boring game of United. If you are going to lose and play boring football, at last let the team have a bit of ball possession...

We would do the same vs Barca today

[Tomo 21,681]

5 hours ago, Strike said:

We would do the same vs Barca today

I'm certain we would do a lot better infact had we got yesterdays Barca at The Bridge last season I'm certain we would have won comfortably.

Despite ultimately losing by three goals we were quite unlucky against them last year (we didn't take our chances and they were clinical when they got there's). United yesterday did literally nothing in attack, it was probably the worse Barca have played since pre Pep and the worst I've ever seen Messi yet they still coasted to victory.

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

5 hours ago, Tomo said:

I'm certain we would do a lot better infact had we got yesterdays Barca at The Bridge last season I'm certain we would have won comfortably.

Despite ultimately losing by three goals we were quite unlucky against them last year (we didn't take our chances and they were clinical when they got there's). United yesterday did literally nothing in attack, it was probably the worse Barca have played since pre Pep and the worst I've ever seen Messi yet they still coasted to victory.

Barca under Valverde are really good at being solid. Taken a bit from what Enrique gave them in terms of sitting a bit deeper and playing more cohesively without the ball and adding even more to it.

I suppose in an away match,  clean sheet, getting a away goal, it worked. Theyve got a lot of experience too, bringing on the likes of Arturo Vidal and Sergi Roberto for Coutinho and Artur Melo is a luxury a lot of teams dont have. I dont know if we would of managed much better than we did the last year against Barca tbf but because as we seen they can turn it on when they need to or when theres a mistake. Id like to see us go toe to toe with a Barca, Real, Juve or whatever under Sarri, it would be really intriguing to see we would cope playing as we do now.

 

[Henrique 9,133]

Must be sacked because of Jorginho.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Just fuck off already. If he just played either Higauin or Giroud and we lost then we can accept we're not good enough. But this clown wasted 60 mins of the game without any discernible game-plan. Nothing worse than feeling you could do better than you showed. Trying to be a tactical genius but he's just an Aldi Guardiola.

[Johnnyeye 7,405]