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Today has clearly showed the bar which Chelsea must work towards reaching. At this moment we are pretty far away but the overreaction today on this forum is incredible. Sarri has been at the club

The decline in performances is a lot down to one thing, The lack of training pitch time. He is coming in, trying to teach the squad a totally different brand of football to what the players are a

I'm telling you now, to all the SarriOut supporters.... you don't know how lucky we are to have a humble manager like Sarri... a man with principle, passion, an expansive free flowing footballing phil

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Just now, Mana said:

I said bar lady luck for the opposition.

True. But still I don't think both are needed to win majority of the fans over. Anyway, not important, just something I felt like pointing out, but is not a big enough statement to make a discussion over imo.

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This forum is just pathetic most of the time.

I don’t see what’s the problem these days. We’re winning, we’re stable and players like CHO, Emerson and RLC are obviously much ready to play now then they were months ago or some of you think they are on this level because they are doing what they want in training and not what the boss asks from them?

Same goes for Hazard, he’s on this level because he enjoys the way we play and now even more without Willian and Alonso, obviously.

I mean come on...

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45 minutes ago, Tomo said:

He's made many beautiful passes that the strikers didn't finish.

Chances created should be a better way to judge creativity than assists, for example Jorginho created a beautiful chance for Odoi vs Brighton on Wednesday and has for Higuain a few times lately all of which squanderered whereas RLC has got 2 assists this week purely by being the last man to pass the ball to Hazard before he scored his wonder solo goals.

A lot of the time assists are very flattering, chances created and key passes give a better barometer of how creative players are.

Bollocks. 

Excuses that he doesnt have many assists because we cant finish should not be acceptable.

Hazard has 12 assists so far with same players around. Why? 

In whole PL season, he made 15 clear scoring chances. Jorginho made only 4. Hazard made 86 accurate long balls as opposed to Jorginho at 79. For better comparison, Fernandinho made 77 accurate passes and created 4 big chances, but offers much higher defensive ability. Henderson made 86 accurate long balls. Neves made 180 accurate long balls. Moutinho just over 100. 

Then you have chances created per game;

Jorginho at 0,7

Fernandinho 0.8

Neves 0.8

Silva as LCM 2,3 

All thar wrapped up, Jorginho is the type of player that doesnt attempt many long balls, doesnt create many chances. He is basicaly Fernandinho without the workrate and physicality. This season, he didnt prove himself to be a deep playmaker at all, regardless who stands in our attack.

We have a decent distributor in Jorginho who is raking average atracking stats of any top DM in the league minus their defensive and physical contribution. 

He is hyped to be Xabi regen, but he simply isnt. Xabi in same spot averaged over 2 chances per game from same spot. And he was much better defender. That is what you call deep lying playmaker.

He did have better stats in serie a though, but thats because he had more time and space to pick a pass. Thats never going to happen in PL, regardless if we have CR and Messi in attack. 

Its also a myth that only Jorginho can do this job and being crucial to Sarri system. Any of above mentioned could do it, as well the likes of Saul, Rodri, Thiago, Paredes etc. 

The problem with Jorginho is that in PL he isnt particulary dangerous creator, nor a strong defensive midfielder which results in many games when he was invisible. 

Kovacic is another problem. Plays in advanced role like Silva or De Bruyne but averages only 0,8 chanced per game, while other two rack over 2.

Our midfielders are painfuly passive and hopefuly RLC plays as much because he at least has contribution in final third.

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20 minutes ago, zekinjo said:

This forum is just pathetic most of the time.

I don’t see what’s the problem these days. We’re winning, we’re stable and players like CHO, Emerson and RLC are obviously much ready to play now then they were months ago or some of you think they are on this level because they are doing what they want in training and not what the boss asks from them?

Same goes for Hazard, he’s on this level because he enjoys the way we play and now even more without Willian and Alonso, obviously.

I mean come on...

Its nice we caught a winning run recently. And CHO, RLC are definately the highlight of the season. Hopefuly both remain next season. 

But we are hardly stable mate. Almost lost to Cardiff, but last two games were ok. We will see how we play against united, pool, leicester and then see if we have evolved. If the performances will be positive, then its a sign for better things. But right now anything is in the air. Sarri could revert back to his Alonso, Barkley, Willin, we might get destroyed again etc. 

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46 minutes ago, Tomo said:

He's made many beautiful passes that the strikers didn't finish.

Chances created should be a better way to judge creativity than assists, for example Jorginho created a beautiful chance for Odoi vs Brighton on Wednesday and has for Higuain a few times lately all of which squanderered whereas RLC has got 2 assists this week purely by being the last man to pass the ball to Hazard before he scored his wonder solo goals.

A lot of the time assists are very flattering, chances created and key passes give a better barometer of how creative players are.

For a guy who plays as a 6 in terms of his position, I would hope people dont look at him as well as at the likes of Busquets, Pirlo, Makelele and whoever else over the years who played that positions and judged them for some goals and assists either (before someone decides to trip me up on it yes, Pirlo took set pieces and could score long rangers but he was a regista).

Fans here should kind of be used to it now, John Obi Mikel got similar treatment and that dickhead Florentino Perez famously said something about Makelele when he left Madrid to come here along the lines of he didnt offer anything, didnt score goals or assist either and would be easily forgotten. Although all these guys are different players in their own ways they all played at the base of midfield and their average positions over the course of games are probably 10 or 15 yards past the halfway line in the oppositions half when the teams have the ball and without it probably 10 yards in front of the CBs...

The lack of goals and assists from midfield this season really should be pointed at Kovacic and Barkley. Both capable players with skillsets you would associate with more offensive minded midfielders but their output has been below par.

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4 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Always funny when people bring up Neves, because from what I've heard from Wolves fans is that he is pretty poor defensively. 

Thats why he struggled at Porto after his breakout year before Wolves got him, he played as a 6 and was vulnerable there at times. Personally I dont think he will be a sitting midfielder, even at Wolves he plays in a 2 and gets up and down the pitch, Moutinho is probably more disciplined as he is a lot older and doesnt have the ability to get around as much as he used to in his younger days. 

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31 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Bollocks. 

Excuses that he doesnt have many assists because we cant finish should not be acceptable.

Hazard has 12 assists so far with same players around. Why? 

In whole PL season, he made 15 clear scoring chances. Jorginho made only 4. Hazard made 86 accurate long balls as opposed to Jorginho at 79. For better comparison, Fernandinho made 77 accurate passes and created 4 big chances, but offers much higher defensive ability. Henderson made 86 accurate long balls. Neves made 180 accurate long balls. Moutinho just over 100. 

Then you have chances created per game;

Jorginho at 0,7

Fernandinho 0.8

Neves 0.8

Silva as LCM 2,3 

All thar wrapped up, Jorginho is the type of player that doesnt attempt many long balls, doesnt create many chances. He is basicaly Fernandinho without the workrate and physicality. This season, he didnt prove himself to be a deep playmaker at all, regardless who stands in our attack.

We have a decent distributor in Jorginho who is raking average atracking stats of any top DM in the league minus their defensive and physical contribution. 

He is hyped to be Xabi regen, but he simply isnt. Xabi in same spot averaged over 2 chances per game from same spot. And he was much better defender. That is what you call deep lying playmaker.

He did have better stats in serie a though, but thats because he had more time and space to pick a pass. Thats never going to happen in PL, regardless if we have CR and Messi in attack. 

Its also a myth that only Jorginho can do this job and being crucial to Sarri system. Any of above mentioned could do it, as well the likes of Saul, Rodri, Thiago, Paredes etc. 

The problem with Jorginho is that in PL he isnt particulary dangerous creator, nor a strong defensive midfielder which results in many games when he was invisible. 

Kovacic is another problem. Plays in advanced role like Silva or De Bruyne but averages only 0,8 chanced per game, while other two rack over 2.

Our midfielders are painfuly passive and hopefuly RLC plays as much because he at least has contribution in final third.

Theres no point comparing a left winger/forwards stats to a regista even if they play in the same team, have same teammates and whatever else. Regardless of the situation. Its like comparing Alonso to Higuain or Kepa to Azpilicuetas, they have different roles in the team. It makes no sense.

Even talking about Fernandinho's 0.8 key passes to Jorginhos 0.7 per game. For all the difference anyways, both are still under 1 key pass per game anyway. Lets look at this way, Sergio Busquets averages 0.5 key passes per game, Jorginho 0.7, Fernandinho 0.8 but it still doesnt mean they are better than Busquets who has probably been the standout player in that position since 2009.

Even Xavi and Iniesta when they played at Barca, amazing players but even then before Pep came in they were never truely appreicated in England or outside of Spain because they werent traditionally physical, all action players like some of the traditional all action midfield players such as Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes among whoever else (who I still think that is what British football pundits, British fans and British media seem to compare any sort of midfield player to regardless of their actual role or skillset).

In short: Xavi only got 58 goals and 49 assists in La Liga, over 17 seasons. Iniesta only got 35 goals and 48 assists in La Liga. Over something similar, 15 seasons or whatever before he left Barca for Japan. Considering the sort of players they were goals and assists didnt define them. It doesnt define Jorginho, who is different but I feel in his defence, could probably have the same case made for him. Even Busquets, the guy is brilliant but he doesnt score a lot of goals or get a lot of assists and he probably is the guy with a close role to Jorginho out of those 3 players although defensively he is severely underrated a lot and has been for years at Barca and with Spain.

I dont think people understand how cruical Jorginho is for us still, hes maybe not been as good as at Napoli, as we havent taken to Sarris philosophy as well as Napoli did but honestly there is a reason why Pep was desperate for Jorginho. If you dont think so, I dont know. I doubt Pep who was a 6 himself in Johan Cryuffs famous dream team as it was called would of wanted him if he was average. 

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1 hour ago, Tomo said:

He's made many beautiful passes that the strikers didn't finish.

Chances created should be a better way to judge creativity than assists, for example Jorginho created a beautiful chance for Odoi vs Brighton on Wednesday and has for Higuain a few times lately all of which squanderered whereas RLC has got 2 assists this week purely by being the last man to pass the ball to Hazard before he scored his wonder solo goals.

A lot of the time assists are very flattering, chances created and key passes give a better barometer of how creative players are.

I hate the whole assist thing to be honest and I hate how this sport too is gradually becoming Americanized as its developing an unhealthy obsession with all these stats and percentages. Not so long ago people would have just appreciated a beautiful pass and ignore whether it would be classified as an assist or not. Jorginho should definitely improve his final ball, and I know he can, but saying that he has been failure as a playmaker because he has 0 "assists" is just silly. Willian has like 10 assists this season and the man doesn't even have a football brain

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I don't understand the Guardiola comparisons. Guardiola is an elite coach and a proven winner. Sarri is neither of those things. He’s more Pellegrini than Pep.

I doubt Sarri will suddenly find great succes at Chelsea. I'm more interested in his successor and a new technical director. That will give me an idea of where Chels is heading.

But I'm fine with him staying for another season if he's finally willing to give the young players regular playing time. Developing talent is crucial for Chels right now. The club obviously doesn't possess the purchasing power to bring in world-class players. Developing the likes of Reece James, Ampadu, Christensen, Cheek, Odoi (and others) and buying a couple of up and coming stars in key positions is the only way to compete in the long run.

Chels can't compete with the Mancs' spending power anyway. And Liverpool assembled a team fitting a certain vision and have comfortably surpassed our team. This Chels squad is more a collection of random players. Need to finally stick to a plan and execute.

But I do question whoever's in charge of transfers right now. And I’m not with Sarri taking charge of transfers either. Really need a proper technical director

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41 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Theres no point comparing a left winger/forwards stats to a regista even if they play in the same team, have same teammates and whatever else. Regardless of the situation. Its like comparing Alonso to Higuain or Kepa to Azpilicuetas, they have different roles in the team. It makes no sense.

Even talking about Fernandinho's 0.8 key passes to Jorginhos 0.7 per game. For all the difference anyways, both are still under 1 key pass per game anyway. Lets look at this way, Sergio Busquets averages 0.5 key passes per game, Jorginho 0.7, Fernandinho 0.8 but it still doesnt mean they are better than Busquets who has probably been the standout player in that position since 2009.

Even Xavi and Iniesta when they played at Barca, amazing players but even then before Pep came in they were never truely appreicated in England or outside of Spain because they werent traditionally physical, all action players like some of the traditional all action midfield players such as Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes among whoever else (who I still think that is what British football pundits, British fans and British media seem to compare any sort of midfield player to regardless of their actual role or skillset).

In short: Xavi only got 58 goals and 49 assists in La Liga, over 17 seasons. Iniesta only got 35 goals and 48 assists in La Liga. Over something similar, 15 seasons or whatever before he left Barca for Japan. Considering the sort of players they were goals and assists didnt define them. It doesnt define Jorginho, who is different but I feel in his defence, could probably have the same case made for him. Even Busquets, the guy is brilliant but he doesnt score a lot of goals or get a lot of assists and he probably is the guy with a close role to Jorginho out of those 3 players although defensively he is severely underrated a lot and has been for years at Barca and with Spain.

I dont think people understand how cruical Jorginho is for us still, hes maybe not been as good as at Napoli, as we havent taken to Sarris philosophy as well as Napoli did but honestly there is a reason why Pep was desperate for Jorginho. If you dont think so, I dont know. I doubt Pep who was a 6 himself in Johan Cryuffs famous dream team as it was called would of wanted him if he was average. 

Point I was trying to make was that he isnt any better in creativity than any other DM, while being way behind in defensive aspects. 

That why I believe his job could be done by number of players who would also give better defensive cover.

Busquets is excellent in defense, Xavi, Iniesta were superb creators, Xabi Alonso was quality defensive CM with playmaking abilities.

Jorginho is very average defender due to his pace and phyisical limitations. But he is decent marker, I give you that. However his offensive output isnt any better than your usual DM in other teams like Fernandinho, Neves, Rodri, Busquets etc. 

He doesnt have a great quality to make him stand out as some want him to picture. He can do it all, but nothing realy exceptional.

The question is does he realy offer that much in set up that outweights how poor our defense looks with him in the centre. 

Hell even average team like cardiff can completely annihilate our defense when they go on counter. We literaly have no midfield because everyone stays up and isnt fast enough to recover, except Kante. Once we get proper fullbacks, I excpect that to improve, but its all about balance. 

I mentioned Hazard because some point out Jorginho doesnt have any assist because of our finishers. Sure we dont have great finishers, but if Jorginho was actual deep playmaker, he would set up way more chances and at least couple would end up in a goal. But with less than one chance per game, odds are smaller. You win game by creating chance after chance, you dont count that you will create that one chance every game and attackers will score it. The odds are small there. You have to create and create to bring odds in your favour. Thats why it makes no sense in saying Jorginho doesnt have assists because strikers dont finish chances. He doesnt have assists because he attempts a creative pass few times every game.

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Just now, BlueLyon said:

I despise the cunt but lets be honest he is fantastic DM. 

Because he is technically brilliant.  He's slow as fuck and can't cover that much ground. Two attributes you've honestly murdered Jorginho on. 

To say he excellent defensively, couldn't be further from the truth. They've been conceding goals left and right all season due to space from the midfield. 

 

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21 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Because he is technically brilliant.  He's slow as fuck and can't cover that much ground. Two attributes you've honestly murdered Jorginho on. 

To say he excellent defensively, couldn't be further from the truth. They've been conceding goals left and right all season due to space from the midfield. 

 

He isnt as great defensively as he was, but in prime he was excellent. His ball qualities are also unbelievable for a DM indeed. His composure is perhaps one of worlds best. Last season they almost went undefeated in laliga, thanks to him, Stegen, Umtiti and even Pique. 

He was never fast indeed, but his positioning was quality and he did cover alot of ground in games. The fact he doesnt cover alot of ground due to his speed or whatever was always a myth. But he is indeed in decline at 30. He is decently tall and strong, something Jorginho is not. Matic was slow too but I had nothing to say against him because he was still very strong, proper DM for a while. 

Its part you need as a DM. Either movement, speed, strenght etc. Jorginho has neither and if he was superb creator, it would make sense to have him, but he racks average numbers in PL. 

So what exactly Jorginho has to be considered special? He is average defender, average creator and his is nowhere near reliable as I thought. He makes stupid pass/loses possesion in dangerous area every game. He is good, not world class marker and passer but that alone shouldnt make him undisputed starter. 

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2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Point I was trying to make was that he isnt any better in creativity than any other DM, while being way behind in defensive aspects. 

That why I believe his job could be done by number of players who would also give better defensive cover.

Busquets is excellent in defense, Xavi, Iniesta were superb creators, Xabi Alonso was quality defensive CM with playmaking abilities.

Jorginho is very average defender due to his pace and phyisical limitations. But he is decent marker, I give you that. However his offensive output isnt any better than your usual DM in other teams like Fernandinho, Neves, Rodri, Busquets etc. 

He doesnt have a great quality to make him stand out as some want him to picture. He can do it all, but nothing realy exceptional.

The question is does he realy offer that much in set up that outweights how poor our defense looks with him in the centre. 

Hell even average team like cardiff can completely annihilate our defense when they go on counter. We literaly have no midfield because everyone stays up and isnt fast enough to recover, except Kante. Once we get proper fullbacks, I excpect that to improve, but its all about balance. 

I mentioned Hazard because some point out Jorginho doesnt have any assist because of our finishers. Sure we dont have great finishers, but if Jorginho was actual deep playmaker, he would set up way more chances and at least couple would end up in a goal. But with less than one chance per game, odds are smaller. You win game by creating chance after chance, you dont count that you will create that one chance every game and attackers will score it. The odds are small there. You have to create and create to bring odds in your favour. Thats why it makes no sense in saying Jorginho doesnt have assists because strikers dont finish chances. He doesnt have assists because he attempts a creative pass few times every game.

Even in defensive attributes comparing him to Fernandinho, who is decent enough defensively is still mad because I dont think I have ever seen a player get away with so many cheap tactical fouls when they get in behind him. Which does happen quite a lot too.

Jorginho isnt played there as a defensive player which is another point. He isnt poor defensively but he isnt particularly great either but hes there because our team want to be proactive with the ball, want to control the game and him playing there is a huge reason as to why we can do so because he always makes options to recieve the ball, can play between the lines and also helps playing out from the back too. That is why I felt the whole argument about Sarri not playing Kante there the first games of the sesson were pointless because we wouldnt be able to get out as effecticely and wouldnt make it into the oppositions half so quickly (as well as Kante never actually playing as a fixed defensive midfielder in his entire career either). 

Jorginho has set up chances or made passes and between bad finishing and poor control/not getting onto them, he hasnt got any assists. Higuain has had at least 3 chances from Jorginho passes that I can think of and he would have definitely scored them if he was fitter and sharper. As well as one or two I can think of for Callum as well. Just because his stats say 0 assists doesnt mean he refuses to play forward or doesnt actually contribute anything else. This whole situation is like the Mikel scenario from years ago, people overlooked what he actually did because he didnt score or assist.

I wonder if we had signed Modric under AVB if people would criticize him too for also not scoring or assisting enough. Or if Josh had made the breakthrough if there would still be the same attitude towards him as there is to Jorginho, which I think stems from the fact Sarri hasnt exactly got things working and people are frustrated so they are making him a scapegoat, like when he got boo'd a few months ago shamelessly by our fans who also have boo'd Sarri a lot mainly everytime he makes a sub over the last 2 months.

Also it can take just one creative pass to score a goal. Its not like Jorginho never has passed forward either that or youve not been watching close enough.

11 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

He isnt as great defensively as he was, but in prime he was excellent. His ball qualities are also unbelievable for a DM indeed. His composure is perhaps one of worlds best. Last season they almost went undefeated in laliga, thanks to him, Stegen, Umtiti and even Pique. 

He was never fast indeed, but his positioning was quality and he is decently tall and strong, something Jorginho is not. Matic was slow too but I had nothing to say against him because he was still very strong, proper DM for a while. 

Its part you need as a DM. Either movement, speed, strenght etc. Jorginho has neither and if he was superb creator, it would make sense to have him, but he racks average numbers in PL. 

So what exactly Jorginho has to be considered special? He is average defender, average creator and his is nowhere near reliable as I thought. He makes stupid pass/loses possesion in dangerous area every game. He is good, not world class marker and passer but that alone shouldnt make him undisputed starter. 

He isnt exactly purely a creator or purely a defensive midfielder though. He is someone who controls/dictates the tempo of a match, they called him a regista in Italy. There have been games where he has played very well defensively but those games have been when we as a team have pressed well, which is another thing that would expose any player when everyone isnt on the same page.

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21 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Even in defensive attributes comparing him to Fernandinho, who is decent enough defensively is still mad because I dont think I have ever seen a player get away with so many cheap tactical fouls when they get in behind him. Which does happen quite a lot too.

Jorginho isnt played there as a defensive player which is another point. He isnt poor defensively but he isnt particularly great either but hes there because our team want to be proactive with the ball, want to control the game and him playing there is a huge reason as to why we can do so because he always makes options to recieve the ball, can play between the lines and also helps playing out from the back too. That is why I felt the whole argument about Sarri not playing Kante there the first games of the sesson were pointless because we wouldnt be able to get out as effecticely and wouldnt make it into the oppositions half so quickly (as well as Kante never actually playing as a fixed defensive midfielder in his entire career either). 

Jorginho has set up chances or made passes and between bad finishing and poor control/not getting onto them, he hasnt got any assists. Higuain has had at least 3 chances from Jorginho passes that I can think of and he would have definitely scored them if he was fitter and sharper. As well as one or two I can think of for Callum as well. Just because his stats say 0 assists doesnt mean he refuses to play forward or doesnt actually contribute anything else. This whole situation is like the Mikel scenario from years ago, people overlooked what he actually did because he didnt score or assist.

I wonder if we had signed Modric under AVB if people would criticize him too for also not scoring or assisting enough. Or if Josh had made the breakthrough if there would still be the same attitude towards him as there is to Jorginho, which I think stems from the fact Sarri hasnt exactly got things working and people are frustrated so they are making him a scapegoat, like when he got boo'd a few months ago shamelessly by our fans who also have boo'd Sarri a lot mainly everytime he makes a sub over the last 2 months.

Also it can take just one creative pass to score a goal. Its not like Jorginho never has passed forward either that or youve not been watching close enough.

He isnt exactly purely a creator or purely a defensive midfielder though. He is someone who controls/dictates the tempo of a match, they called him a regista in Italy. There have been games where he has played very well defensively but those games have been when we as a team have pressed well, which is another thing that would expose any player when everyone isnt on the same page.

Yeah but does his contribution outweight the defensive liability?

Sarri needed technical DM, it makes sense for not playing Kante there. But why we didnt go for someone like Rodri then who offers that + defensive stability?

I honestly expected more from Jorginho, but he realy dissapointed. Dont realy care about assists or goals from him that much, but he definately isnt as influental in set up as I expected. Neither is he as reliable as I expected, its shoking how many times he gives the ball away in dangerous positions. Last but not least, he got easily read by most PL sides and then he cant do anything which results in entire team being shit.

If you depend so much on one player and that player can be stopped so easily, whats next? 

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