Marcos Alonso

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, kellzfresh said:

He just watched Robertson murder them throughout. Reminiscent of Ashley cole today 

Robertson is a solid player but let's not exaggerate things here...

[Vesper 27,284]

2 hours ago, Robguima said:

I will never understand the idea that alonso is bad because other teams will target his position in defense, which is akin to saying azpi needs to be dropped because he can’t attack. Same position different roles.

ivanovic comparisons are super silly btw (he was an excellent defender at his peak).

now, alonso is indeed playing poorly and very little attacking play has been coming out of his side.

those are two different things

Azpi being poor on offence at many times is on us, there is little another team will do (except ignore him more) becuase he is bad going forward

Alonso being poor on defence is something the other team will attack, it is a huge problem

he has to go, even before Willian now in my mind

if we use a false nine, then CF doesn't matter so much, BUT we still need a CF, even before booting La Tortuga

Alonso is the biggest defensive structural weak point on the field, he is just horrid

he should have been red carded today, and had other major lapses, plus passed for shit again

but

he hit the post and thus almost scored and now all the fanboys/girls are out coo-cooing over that shit

 

If Emerson isnt good enough, then we REALLY need to buy an upgrade and quick, before Alonso destroys our season via a series of disasters in games (he came damn close today)

I am so at wits end I would even accept (along with my nine internationals I have posted elsewhere, ALL of whom are loads better than Alonso)

Ben Chilwell 
Kieran Tierney    

as legit buys to give it a go

if either gets to just 80-90% of Roberston's level for Victimpool, they are miles beyond Alonso

[ja1 1,166]

3 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

If you want to see a proper left back, watch Robertson against Manchester united today. He absolutely skinned them, even Mourinho had to acknowledge.

 

He is fantastic and despite only really coming into the fore this time last year for Liverpool, should’ve got in the PFA team of the year. Great two way full back. Having said that I don’t think anyone predicted his rise from watching him at Hull.

[LAM09 6,535]

Robertson is a solid player but let's not exaggerate things here...

He's one of the best FB's in the Prem. A "solid player" is doing him a disservice.

[robsblubot 3,205]

4 hours ago, Vesper said:

those are two different things

Azpi being poor on offence at many times is on us, there is little another team will do (except ignore him more) becuase he is bad going forward

Alonso being poor on defence is something the other team will attack, it is a huge problem

he has to go, even before Willian now in my mind

No, I disagree, they are exactly the same thing. You can't win games without scoring goals, and you can't score goals without attacking in numbers. Azpi is a player the opposition can ignore (like you said), which is not something that can be said of Alonso.

There are many strategies a team and manager can employ to provide cover for an attacking fullback, like the one we use: other FB joins the CB line makings a 3CB system (Azpi is really perfect for it) 

I'm surprised to be honest, because this is very basic on how to balance a team and I've seen it being done since the days of Roberto Carlos who couldn't defend to save his life. Many teams use this combo of one attacking and one defensive FB. Modern times you see this being employed to protect Marcelo, who is prob the worst player at defending I've ever seen play the game. But all attacking fullbacks, however fast they may be, need cover because they will leave spaces behind.

I do see that many here would prefer a more traditional defensive left back, which is fine of course, and yet the same folks like the more attacking way Sarri employs. You can't have it both ways. Not if you stick another Azpi on the left. I'm sure Alonso wouldn't be Mourinho's first choice for LF, but it is Sarri's.

Now if the discussion is that it's worthwhile to give Marcelo freedom, but it isn't so for Alonso, then I'd have to agree that at this time he's not being effective. The same way Hazard goes several games, sometimes half a season without being effective. It happens and for many reasons: form, fitness, sharpness, or team mechanics (some exchange not working or being stopped by the opposition). Once again, that poses a question as to whether Emerson is even good enough to be in the squad.

Concerning your LF suggestion, there might be other left backs that could potentially give more than Alonso (who plays for Spain too btw), but are they attainable? There are no guarantees that they would do a good job for us (diff league team, style, and requirements), let alone do what Alonso has already done (he was an important player in our league win). A player who has already worked well for us needs to be recovered, not shipped out.

Yeah I don't know what to tell you... he is going nowhere. He just signed a new deal...  

 

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

Robertson is a solid player but let's not exaggerate things here...

Not many PL fullbacks better than Robertson tbf. And the form hes in especially, one of the better performing ones in Europe. Solid is downplaying him as a player. 8m pounds he cost too...

As a Scot, good to see a Scottish player featuring every week at a big club in the PL. Still remember seeing him and Stuart Armstrong lining up for Dundee Utd a good few seasons ago.

 

[Vesper 27,284]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

No, I disagree, they are exactly the same thing. You can't win games without scoring goals, and you can't score goals without attacking in numbers. Azpi is a player the opposition can ignore (like you said), which is not something that can be said of Alonso.

There are many strategies a team and manager can employ to provide cover for an attacking fullback, like the one we use: other FB joins the CB line makings a 3CB system (Azpi is really perfect for it) 

I'm surprised to be honest, because this is very basic on how to balance a team and I've seen it being done since the days of Roberto Carlos who couldn't defend to save his life. Many teams use this combo of one attacking and one defensive FB. Modern times you see this being employed to protect Marcelo, who is prob the worst player at defending I've ever seen play the game. But all attacking fullbacks, however fast they may be, need cover because they will leave spaces behind.

I do see that many here would prefer a more traditional defensive left back, which is fine of course, and yet the same folks like the more attacking way Sarri employs. You can't have it both ways. Not if you stick another Azpi on the left. I'm sure Alonso wouldn't be Mourinho's first choice for LF, but it is Sarri's.

Now if the discussion is that it's worthwhile to give Marcelo freedom, but it isn't so for Alonso, then I'd have to agree that at this time he's not being effective. The same way Hazard goes several games, sometimes half a season without being effective. It happens and for many reasons: form, fitness, sharpness, or team mechanics (some exchange not working or being stopped by the opposition). Once again, that poses a question as to whether Emerson is even good enough to be in the squad.

Concerning your LF suggestion, there might be other left backs that could potentially give more than Alonso (who plays for Spain too btw), but are they attainable? There are no guarantees that they would do a good job for us (diff league team, style, and requirements), let alone do what Alonso has already done (he was an important player in our league win). A player who has already worked well for us needs to be recovered, not shipped out.

Yeah I don't know what to tell you... he is going nowhere. He just signed a new deal...  

 

Completely disagree. You once again are logically incoherent. You are conflating tactical setups with raw athletic performance. I don't care if Alonso attacks or not. He isnt even that good at that. What he also is though is too fucking slow (far slower than Roberto Carlos was or Marcelo is) and shit on defence to warrant starting for our team, no matter what tactical set up is played, unless we went to a back 3 with an additional two wingbacks, ie. Conteball. 

That isn't happening and every single one of my LB options would be an upgrade over Alonso. I am so sick of the twisted up versions of 'horses for courses' arguments about how bloody special the EPL is and that it is impossible to compare players in other leagues. It is simply not true.

What is true is that Alonso is shit and needs to go go go. He will end up an anchor round Sarri's neck that helps get him the sacking, mark my words.

I am not changing my mind on this anytime soon. I predicted this before we even we even hired Sarri, as the odds of the next manager sticking with a wingback system were slim to none.

We will see who is right by the end of the season. He damn near cost us 3 points today against a shit team. It will happen again. His passing has been atrocious as well the last several games, so do not try and say I am framing this as an exclusively defensive ineptitude-centred argument. 

Bottom line, once again Roman and the board massively fucked up by giving a lazy, slow sod of a player a massive new contract. He is stealing a living. Blunders like this are now unfortunately par for the course. What well and truly pisses me off is Sarri trying to play us all for mugs by claiming that Alonso is almost (and may well soon be) the best left back in the world. No one who knows a goddamn thing about footie thinks that. It is ludicrous on its face.

Cheers

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, LAM09 said:

5 hours ago, Jason said:

Robertson is a solid player but let's not exaggerate things here...

He's one of the best FB's in the Prem. A "solid player" is doing him a disservice.

 

56 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Not many PL fullbacks better than Robertson tbf.

Says more about the lack of quality from the other sides at LB than anything else. 

[LAM09 6,535]

Says more about the lack of quality from the other sides at LB than anything else. 

That's arguable, but it still doesn't take away from that statement. He's the best LB in the league right now and among the top 3 FB's in the league.  

 

 

Your replies are making out we're talking about someone akin to Van Aanholt.

 

 

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, LAM09 said:

That's arguable, but it still doesn't take away from that statement. He's the best LB in the league right now and among the top 3 FB's in the league.  

Your replies are making out we're talking about someone akin to Van Aanholt.

Which other full back in the league is actually good? Hardly any other than Mendy. I'm not even sure why you seem to be taking offence over the original comment to begin with. You think Robertson is one of the best in the league, fine but he can't be one of the best around if he's not actually a solid player, is it? You're talking as if I've called Robertson shit or something. And if we are talking about someone like Van Aanholt, I'd say he's average or bad. 

[LAM09 6,535]

Which other full back in the league is actually good? Hardly any other than Mendy. I'm not even sure why you seem to be taking offence over the original comment to begin with. You think Robertson is one of the best in the league, fine but he can't be one of the best around if he's not actually a solid player, is it? You're talking as if I've called Robertson shit or something. And if we are talking about someone like Van Aanholt, I'd say he's average or bad. 

You could use that same thought progress across Europe. Very few FB's excel on both sides of the field.

The definition of a solid player to most, is someone that is reliable and will put in a shift, but offer nothing more. That's why my reply said what it did, yet you've now gone on a tangent to discredit him even more.

Each to their own

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, LAM09 said:

You could use that same thought progress across Europe. Very few FB's excel on both sides of the field.

The definition of a solid player to most, is someone that is reliable and will put in a shift, but offer nothing more. That's why my reply said what it did, yet you've now gone on a tangent to discredit him even more.

Each to their own

Semantics. 

[robsblubot 3,205]

3 hours ago, Vesper said:

Completely disagree. You once again are logically incoherent. You are conflating tactical setups with raw athletic performance. I don't care if Alonso attacks or not. He isnt even that good at that. What he also is though is too fucking slow (far slower than Roberto Carlos was or Marcelo is) and shit on defence to warrant starting for our team, no matter what tactical set up is played, unless we went to a back 3 with an additional two wingbacks, ie. Conteball. 

That isn't happening and every single one of my LB options would be an upgrade over Alonso. I am so sick of the twisted up versions of 'horses for courses' arguments about how bloody special the EPL is and that it is impossible to compare players in other leagues. It is simply not true

And yet you did the same thing when you said Alonso worked in conteball, which means he did work in a particular tactical setup. What I’m saying (not really an opinion but something I've learned) is that that’s all there is: roles within a tactical setup. And that formations are not that static: that when alonso is up the field we defend just like conteball, with 3 cbs (Luiz, Rudiger, and Azpi).

there are no guarantees when players come from diff teams in the same league, let alone from leagues in different countries. So many things can go wrong with adapting to country, club (esp if come from smaller club), people, laws, customs, and finally (again) tactical setup. Some of these players haven't had an education and struggle in different environments. So many examples like Cuadrado with us: good in Italy and simply unplayable in the pl. Diego Costa, who adapted to the club and league, but not the country (same with Luiz Suarez).

Now however you feel about this, like I said, he has just signed a new deal and will be our starter for the foreseeable future. Like it or not.

[Vesper 27,284]

36 minutes ago, Robguima said:

And yet you did the same thing when you said Alonso worked in conteball, which means he did work in a particular tactical setup. What I’m saying (not really an opinion but something I've learned) is that that’s all there is: roles within a tactical setup. And that formations are not that static: that when alonso is up the field we defend just like conteball, with 3 cbs (Luiz, Rudiger, and Azpi).

there are no guarantees when players come from diff teams in the same league, let alone from leagues in different countries. So many things can go wrong with adaptation to country, club (esp if come from smaller club), people, laws, customs, and finally (again) tactical setup. Some of these players haven't had an education and struggle in different environments. So many examples like Cuadrado with us: good in Italy and simply unplayable in the pl. Diego Costa, who adapted to the club and league, but not the country (same with Luiz Suarez).

Now however you feel about this, like I said, he has just signed a new deal and will be our starter for the foreseeable future. Like it or not.

I think he will be benched before the end of the season, I really do. As for tactical differences, a formational change to a back 3 is well beyond covering him up in a 4 3 3. In our 4 3 3 he cannot hide.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

9 hours ago, Jason said:

Robertson is a solid player but let's not exaggerate things here...

I think Robertson is the best leftback in the EPL. Maybe that doesn't compare him to the longevity of Cole but he's the real deal imo.

 

[communicate 2,703]

1 hour ago, kellzfresh said:

I think Robertson is the best leftback in the EPL. Maybe that doesn't compare him to the longevity of Cole but he's the real deal imo.

 

I like city benjamin mendy, powerful runner, excellet crosser

[kellzfresh 7,226]

3 minutes ago, communicate said:

I like city benjamin mendy, powerful runner, excellet crosser

Mendy is good too, but he is injury prone and Robertson is better at defending by far so that edges it for me

[El P. 1,354]

Alonso didn't "work" in Conte-ball. He only worked for people with really low expectations.

See, when you kick out one creative/attacking player, in favour of playing that 3-4-3 formation, you need to compensate THAT kind of creativity/ability somewhere else.

If you are really going to play 3-4-3 or 3-5-2, and put your faith into WB-s to do the attacking, you need A LOT FUCKIN MORE than Alonso ever delivered. We have had 3 CB-s and 2 destructive midfielders. Creativity was nowhere to be found. Alonso liked that because he is not good in defence. Also, we had Hazard and Costa to help him at the attack, both really good players.

He is average, good-ish player, and always has been like that. Some of us saw that before, but it was moo point telling people that because OMG LOOK AT THAT FK HE SCORED. Now, when we have higher expectations of our play, especially attacking play, we can see how average he is.

Conte chased Sandro for 2 straight summers for a reason...